Problems with the OT

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
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Problems with the OT

Post by PaulSacramento »

WLC addresses a common problem that Christians deal with:
The OT image of a "not so good God" :

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/problems ... -testament

Question:
Dear Professor Craig,

It's an honor to write to you and I thank you for your Christian apologetics website that's been very stimulating for me to read the past few years.

I am an agnostic (leaning heavily towards general theism) with some family ties to Christianity. The past few years, I have myself been searching quite deeply and investigating the truth of Christianity and I find your work very helpful in this area. As of the moment, I personally find many of the arguments for general theism quite compelling (especially your Kalam cosmological argument). However, I am not sure I can make the leap to Christianity just yet. There are still some things I am working through and investigating and thought I might ask you about one of the areas that's bothered me quite a lot and makes it tough for me to trust in and believe Christianity.

The area that bothers me quite a bit is what to make of the Old Testament of the Bible. What I mean, Professor Craig, is that the Old Testament makes some claims and/or paints a picture of God that seems so far out there compared to the New Testament. Two key examples of what I mean would be:

1.) Extraordinary miracles (such as Jonah living inside of a whale, a talking snake, and the Exodus story, which doesn't seem to have any historical/archeological proof).

2.) A wrathful God, who seems petty and filled with anger (I'm thinking of God's punishments set forth in the Book of Leviticus, which seem scary and extreme)....
Reply:
We recently returned from England, where we participated in events commemorating the 50th anniversary of C. S. Lewis’s death. Lewis was famous for his defense of what he called “mere Christianity,” that is to say, those central truths comprised by the Christian world view. If God exists and has revealed Himself decisively in Jesus of Nazareth, then Christianity is true, and the rest is working out the details.

Clearly, Jason, your concerns are with the details, not with the central truths. The unreliability of certain Old Testament narratives would have no impact upon the truth of theism or the historicity of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead. The questions you ask are thus “in-house” concerns to be debated among Christians. Should we accept the Old Testament as inspired throughout by God? To what extent does inspiration imply scientific or historical reliability? These are, I think, open questions to be discussed. But they should not be obstacles to belief in mere Christianity and, hence, faith in Christ.

So I would encourage you, Jason, simply to bracket these questions until you have made up your mind about (1) whether or not God exists and (2) whether or not He raised Jesus from the dead in vindication of his radical personal claims. If you answer either of these questions in the negative, there’s no reason to be concerned about your questions. On the other hand, if you do answer these questions in the affirmative and become a Christian, then you can proceed to explore your questions further. Don’t get hung up on them now. They’re not deal-breakers.

So what might the Christian who believes in Old Testament reliability say in response to your questions? With respect to the miracle stories, I think we need to keep in mind that if God exists, then miracles are child’s play for Him. The real question here, I believe, is interpretive: whether the narratives are to be construed as literal accounts. With regard to the talking snake in the Garden of Eden, I should say that this is very likely to be interpreted as part of a figurative story of man’s fall. The underlying historical events really happened, but they are cast in figurative language. The entire account of Adam and Eve is told in figurative language, from God’s breathing into Adam’s nostrils the breath of life to Eve’s creation out of Adam’s rib to God’s walking in the Garden crying, “Where are you?” These features of the story are plausibly not intended to be taken literally. The talking serpent is part of the figurative, not literal, aspects of the story.

With respect to Jonah, I suspect that Jonah died while in the stomach of the fish (whether this was a whale isn’t said), and that the miracle is God’s raising him from the dead when he was regurgitated on the shore. His prayer to God is a literary or poetic device which serves the author’s theological purposes. Jonah is thus an even closer type (or foreshadowing) of Jesus Christ than he would be were he miraculously preserved alive inside the fish. “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12.40).

As for the Exodus, I want to commend to you a book that I have here on my desk by the famed Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen entitled On the Reliability of the Old Testament (Eerdmans, 2003). Kitchen’s lengthy chapter 6 is devoted to a discussion of the Exodus and the Sinai wanderings of Israel in light of archaeology. You’re quite right to say that archaeology does not afford a proof of the Exodus. But Kitchen explains in some detail why no such proof should be expected. For example, he points out,

The Delta is an alluvial fan of mud deposited through many millennia by the annual flooding of the Nile; it has no source of stone within it. Mud, mud and wattle, and mud-brick structures were of limited duration and use, and were repeatedly leveled and replaced, and very largely merged once more with the mud of the fields. . . . The mud hovels of brickfield slaves and humble cultivators have long since gone back to their mud origins, never to be seen again. . . . And, as pharaohs never monumentalize defeats on temple walls, no record of the successful exit of a large bunch of foreign slaves (with loss of a full chariot squadron) would ever have been memorialized by any king, in temples in the Delta or anywhere else. On these matters, once and for all, biblicists must shed their naïve attitudes and cease demanding ‘evidence’ that cannot exist (p. 246).

Kitchen also marshals positive evidence to show the historical credibility of the Exodus narratives (such as the otherwise inexplicable quintupling of the population of the land of Canaan between 1210-1150 B.C.). The salient question is not whether we have a proof of the historicity of the Exodus but whether the evidence disproves the historicity of the Exodus. It does not.

Let’s turn, then, to your second concern, that God as portrayed in the Old Testament seems angry and petty. I suspect that this impression results from a selective reading of the Old Testament that ignores the many passages about God’s compassion and concern for the widow, the orphan, and the downtrodden. The God of the Old Testament is a God of love and justice. His anger is always an expression of His intense passion for justice and holiness. Anyone who thinks that the God of the Old Testament is different from the God revealed by Jesus needs to reflect on the fact that the God worshiped and proclaimed by Jesus as our “heavenly Father” just is the God of the Old Testament!

What about the Levitical laws and penalties you mention? Here a couple of things should be kept in mind.

First, these regulations are not intended to be optimal. They are provisional and temporary, suited to Israel’s circumstances at that time.

Second, in some cases the perceived harshness of the punishments testifies to how seriously God takes the sin involved. You see, Israel was a theocracy, a form of government whose head was God. Her laws were not intended to be laws that would be generally applicable to secular society. Take, for example, the laws regarding adultery. Adultery was in Israel a capital offense. In our secular, increasingly promiscuous culture we are horrified at this prospect. But Israel’s laws expressed how intensely God hates the sin of adultery. In the New Testament Paul quotes Genesis, “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be joined to his wife and the two will become one flesh,” and then comments, “This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church” (Ephesians 5.32). The union of a man with his wife in marriage is thus a living symbol of the union between Christ and his church. Thus, to violate this bond through illicit sexual intercourse, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is a sacrilege, a profanation of the holy union of Christ with his people. In our secular society we no longer have this view of marriage. But in ancient Israel’s laws we see how seriously God takes marriage and its violation. We may be offended at this; but who is to say that we are right in our estimation and God is wrong?

Third, some of these laws may not have been actually enforced. The laws may have been idealizations, the harsh penalties expressing how much God hates the sin involved. But actual practice may have been quite different from these idealizations. Penalties concerning children cursing their parents probably fell into this category.

I think that God still abhors sin today, just as He did in the Old Testament, but that since we (we may be glad!) do not live in a theocracy, His judgement is stayed until the Judgement Day, when we shall have to give account of our lives.

Now you don’t have to believe any of this in order to be a Christian, Jason, as I have explained; but for my part, I don’t see insuperable problems in your questions.


Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/problems ... z2pdJPtlu3
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Re: Problems with the OT

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Just my two cents.. When we sin, it's really a process of slow death. Even if you took away Capitol punishment or G-d's wrath against sin, you would still encounter physical and spiritual death for the individual and society doing it. In my opinion, that is why there is such harshness against it.. Because when practiced it leads to death. Also the G-d of the OT is exactly the same G-d of the NT. I totally reject the dispensation view.. I worship a G-d of wrath. I think G-d is totally just to judge us.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: Problems with the OT

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Gman wrote:Just my two cents.. When we sin, it's really a process of slow death. Even if you took away Capitol punishment or G-d's wrath against sin, you would still encounter physical and spiritual death for the individual and society doing it. In my opinion, that is why there is such harshness against it.. Because when practiced it leads to death. Also the G-d of the OT is exactly the same G-d of the NT. I totally reject the dispensation view.. I worship a G-d of wrath. I think G-d is totally just to judge us.
So if and when a believer sins, does he die spiritually?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: Problems with the OT

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RickD wrote: So if and when a believer sins, does he die spiritually?
You mean deliberately sin? I believe we will fall under some type of judgement according to Hebrews 10:26-30. I do not know if that is eternal damnation however... Whether it is or isn't, I still wouldn't do it.

Hebrews 10:26-30, If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

We are commanded not to sin...

Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”

I wouldn't think the Holy Spirit that is within us would die however since that is of G-d. We however, in our carnal lifestyle, would slowly die since sin is death.. You will find this recorded in Romans 6:23.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: Problems with the OT

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Gman wrote:Just my two cents.. When we sin, it's really a process of slow death. Even if you took away Capitol punishment or G-d's wrath against sin, you would still encounter physical and spiritual death for the individual and society doing it. In my opinion, that is why there is such harshness against it.. Because when practiced it leads to death. Also the G-d of the OT is exactly the same G-d of the NT. I totally reject the dispensation view.. I worship a G-d of wrath. I think G-d is totally just to judge us.
So you don't see any "behavioral" contradiction or even difference between how God is portrayed in the OT VS the NT?
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Re: Problems with the OT

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PaulSacramento wrote:
So you don't see any "behavioral" contradiction or even difference between how God is portrayed in the OT VS the NT?
No I don't Paul.. After years of studying the Bible my conclusion would be that the G-d in the OT is the same as in the NT.. He is both merciful and also a G-d of vengeance.. He does not change who He is.. Malachi 3:6, James 1:17.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: Problems with the OT

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Gman wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
So you don't see any "behavioral" contradiction or even difference between how God is portrayed in the OT VS the NT?
No I don't Paul.. After years of studying the Bible my conclusion would be that the G-d in the OT is the same as in the NT.. He is both merciful and also a G-d of vengeance.. He does not change who He is.. Malachi 3:6, James 1:17.
While I agree with you, of course, that they are the same God, how do you explain that "contradictions" or at least the very apparent "issues" between how God is portrayed in the OT VS the NT?
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Re: Problems with the OT

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PaulSacramento wrote: While I agree with you, of course, that they are the same God, how do you explain that "contradictions" or at least the very apparent "issues" between how God is portrayed in the OT VS the NT?
I don't see any issues between the G-d of the OT compared to the G-d of the NT. G-d's grace is in the OT as well. It's always the kindness of G-d that leads to repentance Romans 2:4, Exodus 34:6.

What specific issues do you mean?
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: Problems with the OT

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I don't see any issues between the G-d of the OT compared to the G-d of the NT.
I do take issues because God in O.T, and how he does things, is a striking contrast to the benign image we see in the N.T. And for many that is a stumbling block.

Lets face it, O.T is brutal. If you fail to honor the sabbath, by law you are to be stoned. You DESERVE death, for working on a saturday. Today if you are going to show somebody God's love, this part is going to present a problem. This sounds silly by today's standard. Mind you, not the commandment, but the punishment that it carries. And the cleansing rituals are more absurd by todays understanding, would you like sprinkling blood in your house? I won't. But that is what Israel was commanded to do. Its a work base system, given to people who were not redeemed by grace.

The truth is, the law has an ugly face for the sinner (and that means every person). Its requirements are of the flesh, it was given to people at a time, when they lacked what we now have in christ. So yes I have big problems with the O.T. If I hadn't known Christ, the God of the O.T would sound equally horrific to me too. And the law would be horrible because it would find fault with me even if I did my very best.

Its easy to say you have no qualms with the law, because you are not judged by it and you know it, you run on grace as you yourself say. But to the law breaker who has no promise of a redeemer, the law is death. I can imagine people today who, without christ can't have any promise in the law. If you dishonor your dad mum, you need to die, if you slept with the same sex you need to die, if you are prostitue, you need to die. If you work on sabbaths, gone. If you honor another god, you need to be stoned to death. If your animal wounded another man and you knew about it, you die again and your animal with it. And then comes the cleansings, witgh the sexist mindset. The man needs 7 days to be cleansed but the women needs 14 days. Even the offerings of both genders differ.

Then you have the canaanite wars, where God told even to kill children and preganant women. Honestly I understand why that could be needed to be done but I do not understand how do I square it with Christ and what he taught. It shows a God who is very different. This has always led me to believe that either:

The writings are less inspired than I take them to be, meaning God never ordered such a thing but Israel put it down like that. Means they wrote what made best sense to them in light of their circumstances.

or

That the law is done away with via progressive revelation and there are reasons here which are not documented which might explain more.

Either way I know that without Christ, there is nothing in the O.T law which inspires me or is for my good. The law ultimately brings death because my sin is in me.

The God that we know in Christ, and the apologetics we employ to portray his workings, tells of a God who is wisdom and purity, who loves the sinner. Infact so much that the O.T sounds too childish at times at what these people had to go through just to pray. And today the severity of such punishments make no sense.

In my understanding, these two covenants are mutually exclusive.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


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Re: Problems with the OT

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Please please all of you read Paul Copan's book - "Is God a moral monster". It addresses many of these issues. I cannot recommend it enough.

Silvertusk,
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Re: Problems with the OT

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Just to be clear, and what was the point of my post was that I think without Christ, there is nothing there for the sinner. If there is no Christ, no new covenant then I would not be impressed with the how God looks in the O.T. God is very tribal in the O.T. Because he is exclusive in there, God of the hebrews, with Israel as his chosen people only.

A lot of people praise the law, but truth be told, without Christ, that law is death to us. And I can't help spell it out that all those who praise the law are not subject to its punishments. In between these two covenants is such a broad contrast that it baffles me. Grace is amazing and I think its totality and the consequences of it, are so radical and beyond belief that at times it defies common sense.

The law kind of brings that common sense back, you sinned, you die. But grace says, you sinned, and here I set you free.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
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Re: Problems with the OT

Post by RickD »

Neo wrote:
Lets face it, O.T is brutal. If you fail to honor the sabbath, by law you are to be stoned. You DESERVE death, for working on a saturday. Today if you are going to show somebody God's love, this part is going to present a problem. This sounds silly by today's standard. Mind you, not the commandment, but the punishment that it carries. And the cleansing rituals are more absurd by todays understanding, would you like sprinkling blood in your house? I won't. But that is what Israel was commanded to do. Its a work base system, given to people who were not redeemed by grace.
So tell me Neo, OT saints weren't saved by God's grace? :shock:
Were they saved by works?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: Problems with the OT

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Surely they were saved by Faith, and also by the blood of Jesus - so yes - Grace.
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Re: Problems with the OT

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Silvertusk wrote:Please please all of you read Paul Copan's book - "Is God a moral monster". It addresses many of these issues. I cannot recommend it enough.

Silvertusk,
Yes and I would add to that one, these two also:


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Re: Problems with the OT

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RickD wrote:
Neo wrote:
Lets face it, O.T is brutal. If you fail to honor the sabbath, by law you are to be stoned. You DESERVE death, for working on a saturday. Today if you are going to show somebody God's love, this part is going to present a problem. This sounds silly by today's standard. Mind you, not the commandment, but the punishment that it carries. And the cleansing rituals are more absurd by todays understanding, would you like sprinkling blood in your house? I won't. But that is what Israel was commanded to do. Its a work base system, given to people who were not redeemed by grace.
So tell me Neo, OT saints weren't saved by God's grace? :shock:
Were they saved by works?
That is a very interesting question.
IMO, they were saved by faith BUT, and this is a crucial but, there can be very little doubt that the OT was a "works based" gospel and that is made clear in the MANY, MANY Laws of the OT that carry capital punishment, not to mention that many "works" of sacrifices and so forth.
So how do we reconcile this?
Many simply states that Israel was being "groomed" as a Theocratic state and as such these laws and rituals were needed to make them "apart" from their neighbours AND to set forth the foundation for Christ.
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