"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Don't get me started!!! I really doubt all the conditions are fullfilled.Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:''The End'' is always immanent, and has been ever since Jesus left. He could come back anytime because all the conditions for His return are fulfilled. It has been so - and will be so - until He returns.
FL
Oh, and I forgot to mention. You dodged the question. That is, what the authors and the Romans thought. Not what is actually going to happen.ultimate777 wrote:Don't get me started!!! I really doubt all the conditions are fullfilled.Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:''The End'' is always immanent, and has been ever since Jesus left. He could come back anytime because all the conditions for His return are fulfilled. It has been so - and will be so - until He returns.
FL
See, that is the tricky thing about prophecies - they are subject not only to what the person receiving them understands BUT also to those to whom the recipient of the prophecy understand.ultimate777 wrote:Lately I have been getting the impression that the New Testament authors believed that The End was coming before everybody then alive died, and in any case the Romans believed they did believe that, thought it extremely dangerous even though not believing it themselves, and acted accordingly.
Could I be right?
Why not recommend the Watchtower Society while you're at it?Kurieuo wrote:Ultimate, you should look into a Amillennial eschatology.
I think the ice has frozen your brain FL.Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Why not recommend the Watchtower Society while you're at it?Kurieuo wrote:Ultimate, you should look into a Amillennial eschatology.
FL
... and further on he reasons quite soundly imo:Our question here is: Is there a Millennial Kingdom where Jesus is to reign on earth for 1000 years? To listen to some Christians you would think this question is beyond debate. Why? Well, it slips easily off the tongue! Also it seems to us a little less other- worldly than heaven going , which perhaps scares us. The idea of sitting around, inviting your neighbour under your fig tree, (if you take Zechariah 3:10 literally) is more appealing.
I have heard it seriously suggested from the pulpit that, at the commencement of "the Millennium", Christians will be required to step out in bold authority and command animals like lions and wolves to eat grass. (For a Scriptural response to the idea that this sort of scene must happen, by whatever means, read web site article "New Jerusalem and the Household of God.") They will, so we are told, be commanded to take dominion over every aspect of creation and restore it to an order of paradise on earth.
It would appear to me their task will be made a lot more difficult once 2 Peter 3:10-12 takes place!
- But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and its works shall be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons should we be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of God, because of which the heavens will dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat.
Now please, please, don't tell me I have taken these verses out of context. Verse 9 before them and verses 14 and 15 after them are clearly all about the patience of God as the Gospel is preached, and we are not talking about a light toasting here!
The idea of a natural earthly kingdom was not new with Christians looking for a millennial reign. The idea of a natural earthly reign was deep in the psyche of the Jews at the time of Jesus' first advent and it cannot be successfully denied that a false understanding of what the Kingdom of God was all about blinded many Jews, keeping them from recognizing their Messiah. Their conception was of an earthly Kingdom, with themselves, the nation of Israel, exalted as chief nation on earth. And that is precisely the picture you get reading the Old Testament without the insights that the Holy Spirit and the New Testament give. It is to me an amazing thing, that, after all that Jesus taught to make the nature and manifestation of His Kingdom understood to the Jews, so many Christians readers of the Bible are making the same errors!
There are many instances recorded in the Gospels, where, even His closest followers were slow or unable to comprehend the nature of His Kingdom. Here's a "for instance":
After the death of Lazarus, Jesus told his sister Martha,
"Your brother shall rise again". Martha said to Him, "I know he will rise in the last day".
Jesus' intent, then , was to open her spiritual eyes:
I am the Resurrection and the Life ; he who believes in Me shall live, even if he dies, and every one who believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?
What was the point He was making? It could not be that he resurrects the dead body for Martha already acknowledges that. Jesus does more than that, He resurrects the dead spirit! That, at the heart of it, is what His Kingdom is all about!
We should not be projecting it into the future at all.
For He delivered us (past tense) from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the Kingdom of His dear Son. (Colossians 1:13)
The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself;.. and the witness is this, that God has given to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. he who has the Son, has Life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have Life. These things have written to you who believe that you may know that you have eternal Life.
(1 John 5:1-13)
Someone who knew the significance of Scriptures like these, penned these words:
A rugged Cross became His Throne.
His Kingdom was in hearts alone.
He wrote His love in crimson red,
and wore the thorns upon his head.
Given the prevailing mind-set of the time, even the repentant thief on the adjoining cross misunderstood the nature of the Kingdom. He said:
Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.
And Jesus replied: Truly I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.
When the Pharisees questioned Jesus regarding the Kingdom of God, Jesus responded with the following words, which spoke into the heart of their misunderstanding and lack of spiritual insight.
The Kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed. Nor will they say, "Look here it is! or, "There it is!" For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.
Come with me to John's Gospel, chapter 3, and hear the words of the Son of God to an inquiring Pharisee named Nicodemus. Here the real meaning of the Kingdom is settled and we ignore it at our peril.
Unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
This explanation of the Kingdom of God and its reality now can be tied in with the Apostle Paul's words in Romans 14:17:
For the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking (i.e., not in the natural order of things) but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
The words of both Jesus and Paul hold good both now and forevermore! The Old order was natural. The New Order is spiritual and we will never go back to what Paul calls "the weak and beggarly elements." (Galatians 4:9)
The WTBTS has a very impressive record, of being 100% wrong.Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Why not recommend the Watchtower Society while you're at it?Kurieuo wrote:Ultimate, you should look into a Amillennial eschatology.
FL
Maybe that's why FL wants to recommend it?PaulSacramento wrote:The WTBTS has a very impressive record, of being 100% wrong.Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Why not recommend the Watchtower Society while you're at it?Kurieuo wrote:Ultimate, you should look into a Amillennial eschatology.
FL
FWIW, I recently wrote something about this:ultimate777 wrote:Lately I have been getting the impression that the New Testament authors believed that The End was coming before everybody then alive died, and in any case the Romans believed they did believe that, thought it extremely dangerous even though not believing it themselves, and acted accordingly.
Could I be right?
As for what the pagan Romans believed Christians believed, I suppose what you said is possible. The Romans didn't hold Christians in very high regard, so they didn't really bother to try to understand them.Did Paul Believe Jesus Would Return Within His Lifetime?
In reading 1 and 2 Timothy recently, I noticed something interesting. Both books include some teaching that I believe looks toward the "End Times". These passages have gotten their share of attention in the last several decades' books about eschatology. It is commonly believed that these teachings indicated that Paul believed that Jesus might return any time, possibly within Paul's lifetime.
What caught my attention was 2 Timothy 2:2: And entrust what you heard me say in the presence of many others as witnesses to faithful people who will be competent to teach others as well. Follow the train of Paul's thought: he was a first-generation Christian leader; he had taught, mentored and apprenticed Timothy to be a second-generation leader; in this passage he urges Timothy to teach the next, third, generation of Christian leaders; so that they could then teach a succeeding, fourth, generation of Christian leaders.
While I'm sure Paul would not have minded had Jesus returned in his lifetime (and believed it possible), he anticipated the need for at least three generations of Christian leadership beyond himself (he probably meant for Christian leaders always to be preparing the next generation of leaders). Paul probably knew that he was unlikely to be alive when those third and fourth generation Christian leaders actual became leaders. In other words, Paul was very aware that Jesus might not return within his lifetime, and set things in motion toward the possibility that Jesus might not return for decades, centuries, or even millennia.