Evidence for God from Science

A wonderful answer to physical ailments from WLC.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/dealing- ... al-ailment

I'm sort of conflicted over his answer. It's not that anything he said was factually or theologically incorrect. I'm just afraid that as well intentioned as Craig's answer is, it's ultimately rooted in an unrealistic expectation.

The best thing Craig says is in the first line or two where he relates to the questioner. It was almost required, since that was actually part of the question itself, and I think Craig handled that very well. But I'm just not sure that when someone is in the midst of pain and suffering that the answer they need is a "silver lining" type speech. Let me pause to say that I give him MAJOR props for not offering a theodicy. I am absolutely convinced that not only to people in pain not need a theological discussion on the problem of evil but that in fact such a discussion can be positively harmful. So Craig does very well in not doing that at all. Yet it still seems like what Craig is trying to do is make the questioner somehow feel better.

I can appreciate that drive. It's natural. It's impulsive, even. It goes right to our nature as human beings.When we see something broken then we want to fix it, and when we see someone hurting, we want to help them feel better. It's all very well intentioned. And, again, theologically Craig offered some good truth. But when someone comes to us with their suffering and we say, "Well, first, don't get mad at God about it. It's not like He owes you anything anyway. But look on the bright side! You are a Christian, so whatever you are suffering, at least you are still blessed, both spiritually and physically. I know you don't feel that right now, but it's really true. And the really good news is that God's going to use this suffering for His glory." . . . what is the impact of that? The practical implications? I'm afraid that it implicitly and very politely says, "Stop complaining. It could be worse." It is a very gentle rebuke--we're telling people in such situation that they need to stop looking at their misery. It is all very pious to tell people to stop looking at the evil and start focusing on Christ. Wonderful! But come on . . . pain is real. It literally demands our attention.

I tend to think a better approach is to lament with sufferers. That is ultimately what Christ did on the Cross. And rather than give silver linings and hope that things will be okay (sometimes things are NOT okay, and sometimes we DO get more than we can handle . . . sometimes people die agonizing deaths), we should remind people that God is big enough to hear their questions and concerns and fears and even anger. I mean, shoot, God knows what they are feeling anyway, so when we encourage them to try to replace that emotion with something else they don't really feel (which is just asking them to lie to themselves), we're actually telling them to conceal something from God. But what's the use in THAT? Ask Jonah how that works out.

I guess for me the bottom line is that we have to give people the space to be honest. When we're suffering, we're not really asking the why question anyway. We want to know that we aren't alone, that God still cares for us, that He cares for us enough to take our best shot and continue to love us in spite of it all. Those can be dark days, and they won't make someone feel any better. But what kind of fantasy world are we in if we are trying to help people feel better about pain and suffering? Jesus didn't feel better about it. He died for it. He died in it. And He didn't want it. He submitted Himself to it strictly and only because the Father insisted. So why should we expect mere mortals to have an attitude that not even Jesus did?

To emphasize, I give Craig real props for not giving a discourse on the problem of evil. I do wish, though, that he would have been more transparent with his own thoughts and fears and frustrations and suffering. Then perhaps the reader would see that he isn't alone, and that when he has those dark thoughts that he is afraid to admit even to himself, he could see that he's not alone in having them, that not only is God big enough to hear them, but that God loves them through them, and that even "great Christians" like WLC have them, too. It is, after all, only human.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong.

I will second what Jac said.

His opening is good but the first bullet:

"1. Realize that God owes you absolutely nothing. God never promised us a happy and healthy life. Anything we have is a gift from Him. God is just under no obligation whatsoever to give us a carefree life. As sinners meriting only the justice and wrath of God, we have been saved solely by His good grace. If He chooses to give us a pleasant life on this planet, that is His discretion; but if instead He metes out to us a life filled with misery and suffering, that is also His prerogative. God is sovereign, the Lord of all, and we have no claim whatsoever on a life free from illness or pain.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/dealing- ... z2qjIMOOei"

While the underlying truth of the passage is inevitable, this is too sharp to be put in such straight words. In my experience with atheists especially, this line of reasoning is more harmful actually. Because ultimately we are talking about a personal God, whom we pray to and keep faith that he does listen to us, at least he cares for us at the minimum. When a person does not see this reflected in his life, it is only natural to question. The answer should not be this because this doesn't work.

Good answer Jac, I just don't think WLC is that good at the pastoral side. But I still like his response.

Jac, reading your post I recalled Eccl 3:1-8

"1 There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every [a]event under heaven—

2 A time to give birth and a time to die;
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
3 A time to kill and a time to heal;
A time to tear down and a time to build up.
4 A time to weep and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn and a time to dance.
5 A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.
6 A time to search and a time to give up as lost;
A time to keep and a time to throw away.
7 A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;
A time to be silent and a time to speak.
8 A time to love and a time to hate;
A time for war and a time for peace."

neo-x wrote:While the underlying truth of the passage is inevitable, this is too sharp to be put in such straight words. In my experience with atheists especially, this line of reasoning is more harmful actually. Because ultimately we are talking about a personal God, whom we pray to and keep faith that he does listen to us, at least he cares for us at the minimum. When a person does not see this reflected in his life, it is only natural to question. The answer should not be this because this doesn't work.

Absolutely, neo. I am convinced that we need to learn to meld apologetics with pastoral theology (at at least with a pastoral approach). There is a cliche about the cure being worse than the disease. I think that applies well to some of what we do as apologists sometimes. And frankly, I have to turn the microscope back on us and wonder if such "answers" really don't reflect our own insecurities. I have discovered a paradoxical truth, which is that more often than not, our answers to people's questions are usually for ourselves and not for the people we are answering. But in those cases, our answers tell us a lot more about ourselves--often what we are hiding behind--than it does anything else.

Again, I'll emphasize that I don't think what WLC says here is theologically incorrect. But it just goes to show that truth applied the wrong way isn't necessarily edifying.

Silvertusk wrote:Good answer Jac, I just don't think WLC is that good at the pastoral side. But I still like his response.

Sure, and I hope that I don't come across as attacking WLC. Look, this is a very difficult issue to deal with. He made some good theological points. They are true as far as they go. As I said, I'm just conflicted, because I don't know that such an answer is, as you note, very pastoral. I don't know that is what the reader needed. And out of 100 people reading that answer who are suffering physical ailments, I would be the far more are (UNINTENTIONALLY) hurt by that answer than helped by it.

So it is not enough to speak truth. What he spoke was truth, no doubt about it. But truth has to be spoken at the right times in the right ways, and the right truths in the right situations need to be addressed. And along with truth there needs to be both honesty and charity, both of which require grace and transparency. So in an odd way, I think it is actually possible to "hide behind" truth!

But I'm with you in that I do like the theological points he made. Maybe better for a classroom or lecture hall, but they are good points for one to consider, nonetheless.

1over137 wrote:Jac, reading your post I recalled <a href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Eccl%203.1-8" class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Eccl 3.1-8" data-version="nasb95" target="_blank">Eccl 3:1-8</a>

"1 There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every [a]event under heaven—

2 A time to give birth and a time to die;
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
3 A time to kill and a time to heal;
A time to tear down and a time to build up.
4 A time to weep and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn and a time to dance.
5 A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.
6 A time to search and a time to give up as lost;
A time to keep and a time to throw away.
7 A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;
A time to be silent and a time to speak.
8 A time to love and a time to hate;
A time for war and a time for peace."

Beautifully timed reference, Hana. One of the things I like about OT wisdom literature is that it takes life as it is . . . Ecclesiastes and Proverbs especially. We can rejoice in the times of suffering, but it is simply a fact that in this world there really are times of grief and sadness, and no about of theological gymnastics will change that. And I think we do harm when we try to contort ourselves in such a way that we suggest to ourselves and others that they ought not feel so bad about such grievous times. There truly is a time for everything . . . there is a time to rejoice, but there really is also a time to mourn, and when people are mourning in their proper time, we ought not try to persuade them to rejoice. Rather, we should mourn with them.

Just beautiful.

Jac, I found Eccl 3:1-8 together with Proverbs 3:5-6 when I wanted to help one friend. His knee was troubling him very much. He has to walk with holding rod. Several times he had to undergo operation. I was searching whole internet to find verses that could help him. I found many on suffering. But what I needed to find was Eccl. My friend wondered why he has to suffer. So I was glad I found those verses, because there are indeed times we suffer. Because there is time for it. And as Proverbs say, God knows better than us.

After I emailed my friend those verses, he very soon replied: they are helping.

So, I was glad.