Page 1 of 2

Noah's Ark was round?

Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:15 pm
by Gman
Well this is interesting.. Maybe those guys at the ark encounter will have to change their design... :doh:

Image

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz3fVha_x50[/youtube]

Noah's Ark could have been round, according to building instructions on a recently discovered, 4,000-year-old cuneiform clay tablet at the British Museum.

LONDON — It was a vast boat that saved two of each animal and a handful of humans from a catastrophic flood.

But forget all those images of a long vessel with a pointy bow — the original Noah's Ark, new research suggests, was round.

A recently deciphered 4,000-year-old tablet from ancient Mesopotamia — modern-day Iraq — reveals striking new details about the roots of the Old Testament tale of Noah. It tells a similar story, complete with detailed instructions for building a giant round vessel known as a coracle — as well as the key instruction that animals should enter "two by two."

The tablet went on display at the British Museum on Friday, and soon engineers will follow the ancient instructions to see whether the vessel could actually have sailed.

It's also the subject of a new book, "The Ark Before Noah," by Irving Finkel, the museum's assistant keeper of the Middle East and the man who translated the tablet.

Finkel got hold of it a few years ago, when a man brought in a damaged tablet his father had acquired in the Middle East after World War II. It was light brown, about the size of a mobile phone and covered in the jagged cuneiform script of the ancient Mesopotamians.

It turned out, Finkel said Friday, to be "one of the most important human documents ever discovered."

"It was really a heart-stopping moment — the discovery that the boat was to be a round boat," said Finkel, who sports a long gray beard, a ponytail and boundless enthusiasm for his subject. "That was a real surprise."

And yet, Finkel said, a round boat makes sense. Coracles were widely used as river taxis in ancient Iraq and are perfectly designed to bob along on raging floodwaters.

"It's a perfect thing," Finkel said. "It never sinks, it's light to carry."

Elizabeth Stone, an expert on the antiquities of ancient Mesopotamia at New York's Stony Brook University, said it made sense that ancient Mesopotamians would depict their mythological ark in that shape.

"People are going to envision the boat however people envision boats where they are," she said. "Coracles are not unusual things to have had in Mesopotamia."

The tablet records a Mesopotamian god's instructions for building a giant vessel — two-thirds the size of a soccer field in area — made of rope, reinforced with wooden ribs and coated in bitumen.

Finkel said that on paper (or stone) the boat-building orders appear sound, but he doesn't yet know whether it would have floated. A television documentary due to be broadcast later this year will follow attempts to build the ark according to the ancient manual.

The flood story recurs in later Mesopotamian writings including the "Epic of Gilgamesh." These versions lack the technical instructions — cut out, Finkel believes, because they got in the way of the storytelling.

"It would be like a Bond movie where instead of having this great sexy red car that comes on, somebody starts to tell you about how many horsepower it's got and the pressure of the tires and the capacity of the boot (trunk)," he said. "No one cares about that. They want the car chase."

Finkel is aware his discovery may cause consternation among believers in the Biblical story. When 19th-century British Museum scholars first learned from cuneiform tablets that the Babylonians had a flood myth, they were disturbed by its striking similarities to the story of Noah.

"Already in 1872 people were writing about it in a worried way — What does it mean that Holy Writ appears on this piece of Weetabix?" he joked, referring to a cereal similar in shape to the tablet.

Source: http://news.msn.com/pop-culture/british ... -was-round

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:16 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
A round Ark? Another attempt to re-write the Bible? ...maybe you should have posted this in the Humor & Jokes forum!

I remember seeing a half-scale replica of the Ark at a port near Lelystad, in Flevoland, The Netherlands back in 2010. We couldn't visit it at the time because it was closed or unfinished...I don't remember which. It was BIG! even at half-scale.

And it wasn't round.

FL

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:57 pm
by RickD
The tablet went on display at the British Museum on Friday, and soon engineers will follow the ancient instructions to see whether the vessel could actually have sailed.
Not only are they saying the ark was round, but it also had sails too? Alrighty then!

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:12 pm
by Gman
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:A round Ark? Another attempt to re-write the Bible? ...maybe you should have posted this in the Humor & Jokes forum!

I remember seeing a half-scale replica of the Ark at a port near Lelystad, in Flevoland, The Netherlands back in 2010. We couldn't visit it at the time because it was closed or unfinished...I don't remember which. It was BIG! even at half-scale.

And it wasn't round.

FL
Around, around we go.... ;)

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:10 pm
by Kurieuo
Come on FL, G&S is OE Day-Age site... so you should be used to the Bible being distorted by people here no? Err... hang on. :shock:

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:05 am
by Silvertusk
Surely all this supports the biblical story that the fact another flood tale has been found implies that something major did happen.

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:35 am
by Silvertusk
Any criticism of this find?

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:50 am
by RickD
Silvertusk wrote:Any criticism of this find?
Pictures of sails please. y[-(

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:15 am
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
Kurieuo wrote:Come on FL, G&S is OE Day-Age site... so you should be used to the Bible being distorted by people here no? Err... hang on. :shock:
I only post on this heretical site in the hopes of saving your souls from ETERNAL Damnation! If any of you die without believing in YEC truth, you'll all BURN in HELL forevermore!

There is still time! Accept the Truth and come into the Light!

FL y=P~

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:08 am
by Jac3510
Silvertusk wrote:Any criticism of this find?
Easy.
  • This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high. (Gen. 3:15)
The the ark was not round. It was rectangular. The author of this book assumes that the biblical account was based on an earlier Mesopotamian account, so apparently he can discount the biblical dimensions.

If we actually believe the biblical text as written, though, then no, we cannot affirm that the ark was round.

edit,

By the way, this author is also "107% convinced the ark never existed." So yeah, I'm not particular interested in what this fool has to say.

To each his own.

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:00 am
by Silvertusk
Jac3510 wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:Any criticism of this find?
Easy.
  • This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high. (Gen. 3:15)
The the ark was not round. It was rectangular. The author of this book assumes that the biblical account was based on an earlier Mesopotamian account, so apparently he can discount the biblical dimensions.

If we actually believe the biblical text as written, though, then no, we cannot affirm that the ark was round.

edit,

By the way, this author is also "107% convinced the ark never existed." So yeah, I'm not particular interested in what this fool has to say.

To each his own.
What I meant - was is there any evidence that the biblical account predates this account?

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:13 am
by Gman
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Come on FL, G&S is OE Day-Age site... so you should be used to the Bible being distorted by people here no? Err... hang on. :shock:
I only post on this heretical site in the hopes of saving your souls from ETERNAL Damnation! If any of you die without believing in YEC truth, you'll all BURN in HELL forevermore!

There is still time! Accept the Truth and come into the Light!

FL y=P~
Well.. You don't have to sugar coat it like that that kid.. :roll:

Image

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:45 am
by Jac3510
Silvertusk wrote:What I meant - was is there any evidence that the biblical account predates this account?
What evidence is there that this account predates the biblical one?

Beyond that, the epic of Gilgamesh apparently predates this particular account be a century or more, and both the reasoning for the Noah story' dependency on that account as well as this particular story being older than the Genesis account are the same: namely, the Jews in captivity in Babylon learned the story and took it back with them when they returned from exile and incorporated it into the OT. That view presupposes the documentary hypothesis, which has been debunked every which way imaginable. You have to be an ideologically blinded ignoramus (or someone who has attended an American University--I can't say anything for European ones--and has taken one class in religion and not bothered to study the issue in any detail--in that case, you may not be an ignoramus, but instead just naive and easily fooled).

Beyond that, it's rather obvious when you compare the Genesis flood story with other Mesopotamian flood stories that the latter, pagan versions are always highly legendary. Noah's story is far more historical. The legendary development is much easier to explain if we start with Noah than if we end with him. And to a point you made earlier, what all the stories point to is a real flood at some point in history. It's obvious that these pagan stories are not it, and that ties all in rather nicely with the point I just made.

Again, I cannot emphasize enough that the thinking upon which the argument that the Old Testament is dependent upon these stories for its origin--the basis for such a theory--has been debunked time and again. And all this before we get to the rather glaring fact that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, that Jesus regarded Noah as a historical figure, etc.

So I ask again: why on earth would I or anyone accept the proposition that the story predates the OT account?

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:20 pm
by Silvertusk
Thanks for that Jac -have you got any links or references to back up what you just said, please don't think I am being flippant - I genuinely want to read more material on this matter and admittedly I am rather an "ignoramus" in this area :ewink:

Re: Noah's Ark was round

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:04 pm
by Jac3510
It's hard for me to point you to any particular source, as the criticism is so widespread. Just Google "criticism of the documentary hypothesis" and related terms and you'll find more material than you could ever read in a lifetime.

Some material you want to start with, though:

https://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2 ... px#Article
http://carm.org/documentary-hypothesis
http://www.doubtlessfaith.com/uploads/5 ... archs2.pdf
http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/ ... 1fall4.pdf

And on and on and on and on . . .

If you want a book (though somewhat dated), Gleason Archer's Survey of Old Testament Introduction is good. I'll close with a comment from William Lasor, who is no conservative scholar (which you can see from the quote itself), mind you, from his book Old Testament Survey: The Message, Form, and Background of the Old Testament:
  • It is doubtful that the documentary hypothesis will survive the critical labors of contemporary scholarship. What new hypothesis will receive wide acclaim is far from clear. Certainly, the Pentateuch is an anthology of a wide variety of literature, accounts, laws, rituals, exhortations, sermons, and instructions. How were these texts preserved before they were canonized? How did an ancient text address a later audience? These questions are crucial to understanding the complexity of the Pentateuch. They lead one to conclude that it was not written by one person in a given decade. Rather it is the product of the believing community through many centuries. Of much more importance for interpretation is the final result of this long process, produced by the inspired authors, editors, and tradition-bearers of God’s chosen people.
Again, all this is the basis for arguments about the OT account of the Flood coming after and being dependent upon these other Mesopotamian flood stories. Those of us, then, who affirm the the historicity of the Torah (and that on very good grounds, mind you) have every reason to believe that those pagan narratives comes from the OT tradition, not vice-versa.