Evidence for God from Science

(if this is the wrong forum, please move it)
Okay, so a few of you who have noticed my posts know that even though I grew up in a church, its pretty recently that I actually started caring about my religion in any meaningful way. So I’ve been going back to the basics. I was rereading the Sermon on the Mount, probably the first time in years, and I came up with a few questions.
First, is Mathew 5:17-20.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 1For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

I’ve been under the understanding that the Old Testament Law doesn’t function the same today as it did then. That it was mostly made redundant by the Christ’s Commandments (Love God, Love others as you love yourself). But what this has me questioning is, mainly verse 19. What does this mean to us today? How do the old laws actually impact us?
Later in the same chapter it talks about sacrifices. Would this be taken similarly to offerings in church today? Or was this entirely aimed at the practice of the Jews of the time? Is there an easy way to tell the difference between his instructions for Jews practicing their religion and us today?
Second, Mathew 7:6

“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

…. What? I did look up a commentary for this verse that described as trying to force righteous behavior/ Christian teachings on people who aren’t willing to learn? Is this accurate? Can someone explain the imagery?

Third, Mathew 7:21

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

I already know you can’t earn your way into Heaven. So, is this a reference to good fruit/bad fruit described earlier in the chapter or a reference to something else?

Right now, I will comment to your first question on verse 19. Well, if we love God, we wish to obey his commandments, is that right? Look at them, it's his wish, right? Breaking them, breaks his heart, right? Great thing is that God is merciful and forbidding. But the real question is, do we truly love him?

If I am wrong in something, folks, please correct me.

The only thing I would add too what Hana has said is that there is a difference between laws that are universal, covering all times, places and people and the laws that were given too the Israelites, which were specifically given to them to set them apart from the sorrounding nations so that our saviour could be born.

I would say the 10 commandments are the universal laws which are governed by the two laws that Jesus gave us, we are also to observe the spirit of the law which is understanding the heart of it. For example thou shalt not steal, if a young child steals a loaf of bread too feed his dying family should you punish him? The spirit of the law to me says no, yes he broke the law but he did it out of desperation with pure intentions, this to me is the spirit of the law. To be legalistic, which is what Jesus was against, would be to punish this child because that is what the law says.

That is my understanding, let the yoke of the law go and instead live by the spirit of the law which is written on the hearts of all men. Love God, love others as yourself, this is the spirit of the law plain and simple.

God bless you

Thanks for the answers, I appreciate it.

But what about my other two questions?

1. I agree with the commentary you read. Do not argue with people that have no interest in learning, you are wasting time that you could be spending with someone who does want to learn.

2. Yes it is a reference to good/bad fruit, there are people who claim to be Godly but fly around in helicopters from mansion to their beach side resort by extorting money from gullible people through fear and repression, I am sure you can work out which types of people this is talking about.

1. I wasn't looking for an argument. I was looking for confirmation and hopefully a better understanding of the metaphor, like any cultural significance I wasn't aware of. All the commentary gave was a single sentence with no explanation.

At what point did I sound argumentative? Not trying to start something, just want to know where the misunderstanding came from.

2. Okay, thanks for the confirmation.

(I hate it when people get crazy ideas about a verse out of context or out of their own limited understanding, and then repeat it like fact. I try not to do that by looking for people with a much better understanding then I do and talking to them if I question my understanding at all, but I usually try commentaries first.)

Thanks for the quick reply.

Hi sorry I think you misunderstand me, I wasn't saying your argumentative, I was just explaining what I thought the verse meant. As to cultural significance, I know pigs were considered unclean animals and not fit for eating so I guess you could draw a parallel between pigs being unclean and the person who won't reason because he is unclean in his sinful ways. Pearls I guess is obvious that they were considered a thing of fine beauty and parallel the beauty of reason and logic which is of God.

I applaud your efforts, it's not often we get genuine enquiry.

I'm not really a scholar or any other such thing, there are others here much more qualified than myself, they may be able to give you a better insight.

I do apologise if you misunderstood what I was trying to convey.

Peace

As to cultural significance, I know pigs were considered unclean animals and not fit for eating so I guess you could draw a parallel between pigs being unclean and the person who won't reason because he is unclean in his sinful ways. Pearls I guess is obvious that they were considered a thing of fine beauty and parallel the beauty of reason and logic which is of God.

Thanks, this is the kind of thing I was looking for. The pearl one wasn't that obvious, I mean I got that pearls are valuable buts as far as I got. Thanks.

I applaud your efforts, it's not often we get genuine enquiry.

Yeah, I've noticed the threads with people trying to start stuff. Which is a shame, there's a lot of people more then happy to help.

I do apologise if you misunderstood what I was trying to convey.

Internet. It basically breeds misunderstandings. No biggie.

Peace

Righht back at ya', man.

SeekingSanctuary wrote:...Okay, so a few of you who have noticed my posts know that even though I grew up in a church, its pretty recently that I actually started caring about my religion in any meaningful way. So I’ve been going back to the basics. I was rereading the Sermon on the Mount, probably the first time in years, and I came up with a few questions.
First, is Mathew 5:17-20.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 1For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

I’ve been under the understanding that the Old Testament Law doesn’t function the same today as it did then. That it was mostly made redundant by the Christ’s Commandments (Love God, Love others as you love yourself). But what this has me questioning is, mainly verse 19. What does this mean to us today? How do the old laws actually impact us?

Later in the same chapter it talks about sacrifices. Would this be taken similarly to offerings in church today? Or was this entirely aimed at the practice of the Jews of the time? Is there an easy way to tell the difference between his instructions for Jews practicing their religion and us today?

First off know this:

Gal 3:24 NKJV, "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

Romans 7:1-25 speaks of how this principle works. The purpose of the law was and still is to expose sin and lead a person to God's saving grace by faith.

In this, now read Mat 5:17-18 NKJV, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Jesus did so, exposed sin, displayed God's salvation dealing with it, and thus completed the task of the law in regards to bringing people to Christ (reconciliation) and in this manner; the law still exposes and defines sin thus leading people to Christ Jesus. That was and is its purpose of the law. When Rev 21:6 occurs, the need for the law, exposing and defining sin, will be done away with just as Jesus stated.

Next:

1 Co 15:56 NKJV, "...the strength of sin is the law."

The law defines sin - exposes it. In doing so, exposes the pride of human beings that seeks to manipulate the Law to justify one's sinful acts. It exposes a breach of faith between man and God. People prefer law over faith. Faith produces a relationship of trust, fidelity, commitment, and love. Law produces works, or faith in one's works and abilities; thus, faith is in within own self, free from a loving relationship with God.

Marriage is the best living proof of faith we have on this planet. If either spouse breaches trust, faith, loyalty, commitment to each other - there is NO love, no real relationship. Faith works by love. The law, on the other hand, shows why such a breach is wrong and points to the need for God alone to save and reconcile us back into the grace of his wondrous love.

Humanity divorced God. The law came to show us how and why we breached and broke that relationship with God in exchange for what our faith is now placed into. Yes, folks, place trust, fidelity, and commitment in themselves, in Government, in escapism, debased living, bitterness, envy, in wrath, and inturn breach relationship with God and each other. The law, when used lawfully, exposes that breach and defines and exposes sin. Next, read these verses...

Rom 3:20 NKJV, "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

People will attempt to use the law to manipulate God and justify themselves; thus avoiding a real honest ‘one on one’ relationship with God. That is the true sin of the human heart, the law exposes: the human heart’s twistedness, wrapping of bad into good, and its justifying doing so. The law came also to expose the breach of faith between man and God. Now read these verses and read the corresponding chapters when you have the time:

Rom 3:28 NKJV, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

Gal 2:16 NKJV, "...knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

Gal 3:11 NKJV, "But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Through Christ, there needed to be a change in the nature of the law (exposing sin) into a law of love that restores the breach of faith between man and God. We can now run boldly to the throne of Grace. That is why it is written...

Heb 7:12 NKJV, "For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law."

Jesus, the new heavenly High Priest, changed the law so that faith that works by loving relationship is restored:

Matthew 22:37,38, 39, 40c

Gal 6:2 NKJV, "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."

James 2:8 NKJV, "If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." you do well..."

Here is an example of how the law currently works: What relationships have you breached by you and been breached by others toward you?

We need a savior from ourselves and only Jesus can save us from our breaches of faith through Grace at work within the born again spirit of man (woman) by the Holy Spirit through trusting, faithing, relationship building commitment, marriage between you and God. Through the law is the knowledge of sin, through Christ is freedom...

Gal 5:6 NKJV, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."

SeekingSanctuary wrote:Second, Mathew 7:6

“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

…. What? I did look up a commentary for this verse that described as trying to force righteous behavior/ Christian teachings on people who aren’t willing to learn? Is this accurate? Can someone explain the imagery?

No, there are some things that others will twist and use against you. In fact Matthew 22:15 brings this point out: "The Pharisees went out. They made plans to trap Jesus with his own words." NIrV

People do - do this. Think of how democrats do this with conservatives... in the USA. It is for reason like this that one must be wise in what they say to whom and when. That is what Jesus is talking about...

SeekingSanctuary wrote:Third, Mathew 7:21

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

I already know you can’t earn your way into Heaven. So, is this a reference to good fruit/bad fruit described earlier in the chapter or a reference to something else?

It goes back to knowing God by Faith - that relationship - so you know the actual 'will of the Lord.' Knowing His 'will' begins with human surrender to God's grace shown upon that cross and resurrection into New Life living... Recall, faith must have an object. Most folks object of faith is in themselves, their possessions, or personal esteem, misery, bitterness, legalism of various religions, atheism, agnosticism, escapism, etc and etc, but not in God's actual Personhood. Sin breached that faith. Jesus came to restore that broken Faith because no breach breaking human can or could.

Faith works how - by love - whom do you love more? - self, things, or God?

Good works are done how - by us growing in the knowledge of God's grace and transformed by it. When you come to Christ, you enter a marriage agreement. You learn what love is through process of mortal time and thus one's faith is increased as time goes by. You do good because you love God and are out doing his honey do list. You ‘do’ because you love, not because you must or else you’re so much burnt toast.

Look at Eph 2:8,9,10 - what does it say to you in regards to what I stated so far?
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Okay, thanks for the comprehensive reply and sorry it took so long to get back to you. Homework has been a killer this week.

So, just checking to see if I understand: The Law exists to describe/define sinful behaviors so we can understand it better. Correct?

No, there are some things that others will twist and use against you. In fact Matthew 22:15 brings this point out: "The Pharisees went out. They made plans to trap Jesus with his own words." NIrV

People do - do this. Think of how democrats do this with conservatives... in the USA. It is for reason like this that one must be wise in what they say to whom and when. That is what Jesus is talking about...

Thanks, that sounds a whole lot better than that commentary did.

Look at Eph 2:8,9,10 - what does it say to you in regards to what I stated so far?

That through salvation we are remade, after we are remade we naturally wish to do good?


btw, there was another question I had but I forgot it over the past day or so. If I remember it I'll post it here.