Evidence for God from Science

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case — the things that have to do with salvation."

I've been a little disturbed by this passage as of late. Does this mean that once a Christian backslides to a certain point and stops believing in Christ at any point is just done? Finished? Past the point of no return? What if they change their mind further down the road? Is this related to the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" that Jesus spoke about?

I was also reading about other things that could be considered "Eternal Sin": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin

What are the thoughts on possibilities of reaching a point of being doomed to no salvation?

I think it means exactly what it says. If a believer falls away--and by falling away we are talking about apostacy, not "backsliding"--then there is just no way to bring them back to repentance. The author is making a very practical point. If someone has been a Christian and has been through the discipleship process, they know Jesus and what it means to be a part of His body, if they turn their back on Him, then what can you possibly say to bring them back?

Show them what the Bible says? Who cares? He's rejected that.
Tell them of God's love for them? Who cares? He's rejected that.
Threaten them with excommunication? Who cares? He's already rejected the church.
Warn them of God's judgement? Who cares? He's doesn't believe that anymore.

So it's impossible to renew them, to bring them back, to repentance.

By analogy, if a farmer takes care of a field and instead or producing fruit it produces weeds and is overrun, what is the farmer to do? He can't just pick the weeds and thorns. He has to uproot everything. He has to start over. The field can't be brought back. It has to be burned so that things can be started over from scratch.

Just so with the believer. We are expected to produce the fruit of the Spirit, but if we fall away and produce faithlessness, then what is anyone to do? The only thing left for God to do is discipline us, and harshly (cf. Heb 10:26-31).

This does not say that this person has lost their salvation. This does not say that this person is sealed in unbelief forever (in fact, the farm analogy suggests otehrwise). It just says that if someone falls away, then we can't bring them back. They're in the sad place that the only thing left from them is the judgment of God upon His wayward children.

Ok, teach me.

The verses:

Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often [e]falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close [f]to being cursed, and [g]it ends up being burned.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jac, how does the farm analogy suggest the otherwise?
What does it mean that one ends up being burned?
What does it mean that there no longer remains a sacrifice?

1over137 wrote:Ok, teach me.

I'd rather not presume to teach if that's okay with you. I will, though, share my best understanding of the questions as you've asked them.

Jac, how does the farm analogy suggest the otherwise?

The author of Hebrews wasn't making up something that a farmer might do in anger. He was referring to an actual agricultural practice. When weeds and thorns overran the farm, he would burn it. Doing so would totally kill the bad plants. It would also kill the good ones. But that would have the effect of providing fertilizer for the ground. So once everything was burned to a crisp, the farmer would then go over the land and completely start over. Retill everything. Replant everything, etc.

In other words, the purpose of the fire--and it was a last ditch effort--was to start over from scratch, if you will. Just so, the analogy suggests that if a believer is beyond the point at which repentance can be an effective means of bringing about the fruit of faith, then God has to "start over," which often requires very, very harsh discipline--the kind that cripples us and brings us to our knees.

What does it mean that one ends up being burned?

In Heb. 6, it is the land that is literally burned so that the land can start over. Metaphorically, fallen Christians are "burned" so that they, too, can "start over." The "burning" is not literal in the sense of speaking of Hell, which is how many are inclined to take it.

In Heb 10, the burning is not a farm analogy but just refers to the terrible judgment of God on a believer's life. The point there is that the Christian has actually become God's adversary, and as such, he or she will fall under His judgment. But there's nothing there than says anything about Hell as it is often suggested. If someone thinks that the fire and judgment of God refers to Hell, they'll need to make that case. Just citing the fact that Hell is spoken of as including fire and seeing the mention of fire here is not sufficient to make the equation in this passage.

What does it mean that there no longer remains a sacrifice?

It means that there is no other sacrifice other than Christ. That has been rejected, so what else is there to turn to? In context, the specific sin under discussion was that some Jewish Christians were reverting back to Judaism, which is to say, back to the old sacrificial system (that's why the author of Hebrews spent so much time in the book demonstrating the superiority of Jesus to Moses and the Levitical system). He is saying, then, that in going back to the old sacrifices, they are going back to nothing at all. There no longer is a sacrifice for them, because the OT sacrifices have been done away with. All we have now is the sacrifice of Christ.

So once again, I'll just point out that while I think it is evident (and some disagree) that this passage is referring to Christians losing their faith, NOWHERE does any of these passages say that the result of the sin is the loss of salvation or condemnation to Hell. On the contrary, the result is harsh discipline. So those who want to say that these fallen Christians have lost their salvation have to prove more than they have. They have to show that this harsh discipline incldues or else results in eternal condemnation. Can they show that? I don't think so, because the author of Hebrews just never says it.

IMO:
To be a believer, a true believer ( which is one that believes and proclaims the risen Christ), one believes because of the indwelling of the HS.
To DENY that HS is blasphemy of the worse kind because it is to deny what we KNOW to be true by PERSONAL revelation directly from God.
To believe and then "fall out" due to a horrific event that tests us beyond our ability to endure or the fall out because of conflict against the evil one is a sign of being human and weak BUT to deny Christ and the HS is something else.
An example of this is one that had the HS and then becomes not just an atheist bit one that ACTIVELY tries to draw people away from God.
As opposed to one that has fallen from grace because of the horrific death of a loved one that has broken his/her heart to the fullest.

Thanks Jac. And next time I will say: ok, share your best understanding.

1over137 wrote:Ok, teach me....

There is much ado about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and losing one’s salvation. There are those that say one can, and others that say you cannot, and those who don’t know, and those who are simply confused by this. What does it mean to blaspheme of the Holy Spirit – how can one actually know what this means and how one can actually do this so that one actually loses his or her salvation?

This matter is easily cleared up. How, by sticking to what the Hebrew and Greek words translated Blasphemy mean, how it was used, and translated within the bible. For ease, let us first look at:

AMG’s Word Study Dictionary of OT and NT Words which helps defines blasphemy:

Greek strongs number 988

βλασφημία

blasphēmía; gen. blasphemías, fem. noun from blásphēmos, blasphemous or a blasphemer. Blasphemy, verbal abuse against someone which denotes the very worst type of slander mentioned in Mat 15:19 with false witnesses; wounding someone's reputation by evil reports, evil speaking. See Mark 7:22; Eph 4:31; Col 3:8; 1 Tim 6:4 [cf. 2 Peter 2:11]; Jude 1:9

(blásphēmos , a blasphemer); Rev 2:9; Sept.: Eze 35:12.

Corresponding Hebrew word for Blasphemy is ne’āṣāh strongs number-5007

ֶנָאָצה

ne’āṣāh: I. A feminine noun indicating shame, disgrace. It describes a situation that brings embarrassment or rejection because of failure (2Kings 19:3; Isa 37:3).

II. A feminine noun referring to blasphemy, aspersion. It indicates a disrespecting rejection and harmful attack by words and deeds against someone, especially God or His laws (Neh 9:18, Neh 9:26); or His holy land (Eze 35:12).

AMG’s Word Study Dictionary of OT and NT Words

Note the scripture usages regarding how this word is used. Its basic import is the worst type of slander with the ultimate gonads to wound someone's reputation by character assassination.

Most folks who think they have done the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit have not done this. The realistic way this could occur is for one to resort to animal sacrifices of the Law for the remission of sins. That is the ultimate insult to God – counting the blood of Christ an unholy item by replacing it with the blood of the OT animal sacrificial system.Now, has anyone, since the Temple was destroyed ‘did’ this? I do not know, but the book of Hebrews addressed this very thing. Now on to modern times, how could one actually insult the Spirit of Grace if the Temple and its sacrifices no longer exist?

In that is your answer. The temple is no more and the system was replaced. You could say by an act of God’s grace God stopped folks from insulting the blood of Christ by removing this system. That is the only way to insult God – how – replace the shed blood of Christ with that of a common animal for the remission of sins.

There will be third temple built according to the prophetic scriptures. If non-believer falls into that new OT system for remission of sins, they would not insult God. However, if they, after becoming born again by the shed blood of Christ go back to animal sacrifice for forgives of sins – that is this very slanderous insult. Now look at the verses in Hebrews again which Hana mentioned:

Hebrews 6:4-8, For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Look at the actual context of Hebrews chapter 10 quoted below – what is it saying?

Can you see the mention of the saving work of Jesus’ blood upon the cross?

Heb 10:16-39, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says,
Heb 10:17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful…

Now look at these two verses before verse 6 begins – what do these imply? Not forsaking the assembly with fellow believers… The willful sin is a going back to the animal sacrifices for the remission of sins – thus insulting the spirit of Grace. Notice how the Law of Moses is mentioned and the transition to reference made about the blood of the New Covenant?

Heb 10:24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Heb 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb 10:37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
Heb 10:38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

After reviewing the actual use of the word Blasphemy in regards to blasphemy of Holy Spirit and insulting the blood of the Covenant – what does this mean to you and next how could it apply today to any Christian since the temple sacrifices are no more?

Praise be to God that what Jesus stated is true: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one." John 10:27-30 NASB

The phrase "I and the Father are one," in context adamantly states that Jesus and the Father are in agreement on this. "I and the Father are one (in absolute agreement)."

The biblical principle of sealing an agreement, covenant, or legal issue is to have two or three witnesses to seal the matter as final. With this in mind, you’ll notice the third sealing mentioned in Eph 1:13, 14 and is this secure or not by God’s third oath? You have the eternal Godhead swearing an oath three times upon himself

Heb 6:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. NASB

Heb 7:20,21,28 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath . 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");…. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.” NASB

After reviewing this, how can any true Christian realistically insult the blood of the New Covenant (the Blood of Jesus shed for remission of sins) by the only way one can, returning to the Temple Mount and reverting back to the animal sacrifice when that temple and system is currently no more?

The Third temple has not yet been built yet so as of today 2014 – how can one lose his or her salvation since God swore such an oath to keep one saved, promising to be the good shepherd who seeks the straying sheep?

Place you faith in Christ work on that Cross alone performed as grace for those who come to him without one plea – for his blood was shed for thee…

2 Tim 2:19 – Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." NKJV

Look at these promises:

Psalms 37:18, Psalms 37:28, Psalms 112:6, Psalms 125:1-2, Psalms 97:10, Titus 2:11-14 what do they reveal to you?

Seraph wrote:"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,...things that have to do with salvation."

I've been a little disturbed by this passage as of late. Does this mean that once a Christian backslides to a certain point and stops believing in Christ at any point is just done? Finished? Past the point of no return? What if they change their mind further down the road? Is this related to the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" that Jesus spoke about?

I was also reading about other things that could be considered "Eternal Sin": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin

What are the thoughts on possibilities of reaching a point of being doomed to no salvation?

I like Jac's post.

This is a serious issue with young people in particular. But there are a few reasons why they ask this Q, which are usually not related to this grievous sin.

These texts are fair warnings, but Satan would like people to misapply them to the point where they give up on God because they feel they're not making headway.

The sins we see in our lives are symptoms of much deeper issues, and God knows it.
It is a mistake to simplify salvation down to obvious / outward behaviors. The addictions people get into are pain killers, that don't last long enough to be of any benefit. If they worked one or two sins would be enough, with a glass of water.

You must allow God to comfort you.

1. Step one - give up.
2. Step two - give up altogether
3. Step three - stop trying to give up
4. Step four - take all your worries and throw them at God "casting all your care upon Him... for He cares for you"
5. Step five - make it His responsibility and not yours to battle sin
6. Step six -if this doesn't work go back to step one.

When a person is caught up in condemnation cycles, they are usually in the habit of telling God what to think of them, based on their performance as a Christian. But they really need to be heard, loved and comforted by God, in many aspects of their lives, like the dysfunctional ways of relating within 'family' or partners, fear of loss and lack of success etc.
And these real life issues, and not obvious addictions, must be addressed with the help of counselors, and especially personal prayer.

Have you heard of the text that says "His mercies are renewed every morning..."? Claim the one for the day in the morning.

If we have known sin in our lives, we must plead with God as our life is at stake, to give us victory. We have to overcome at all costs. It may take time, to recognize where the real problem lies, and this will give us a true conversion which includes self knowledge, compassion and understanding, towards ourselves, and anyone else in the same predicament.