Why does God let satan have nearly all human souls?

[DRDS]

Hey guys, this is yet another followup to the last previous threads I've done in this section and I touched on this briefly in both threads and no one seemed to mention this area much. And because no one did I decided to make another thread that just focuses on this specific area. And mainly, yes, I know that in the end God will have the final victory over satan and the forces of evil, but why is it that He lets satan get away with having the vast majority of the human race?

Why is it that God is just going to let him have such a major eternal victory in this specific area? I mean think about it, even after satan is cast into the lake of fire and is being tormented for all eternity with the vast majority of the human race, even in the midst of his suffering satan will still have the satisfaction of beating out God for winning the majority of people to him.

And what I wonder about is why God just sits back and lets Himself get taken advantage of by someone that is so much lower and less powerful than He is? I mean come on, how power is satan really? In my studies I've heard two possible scenarios, one is satan used to be third in line of power. When he was over the praise and worship in heaven he was behind Michael the archangel who is second in line of the triune God. The other scenario is that the roles of power between Michael and satan were reversed and that it was satan or lucifer was the one who was second just behind God.

But either way, the fact remains that satan was and is a created being, he was created by himself, he was created by God. And satan by no means regardless of how much power, intelligence, beauty, or whatever he has is not all knowing, all powerful, all loving, with no beginning, completely self sufficient or has any of those characteristics that God has.

I can pretty much say with 100% confidence that when you compare the "tale of the tape" between God and satan, it would be like comparing the power,intelligence, vastness of the entire universe with a tiny microscopic injured three legged atom. And even that I think doesn't do enough justice in rightly comparing God and satan in terms of who has the most power.

So with that in mind, again, why is God going to let satan just take probably 98% or more of the entire human race from the beginning of time until the end of time with him and God only is going to get probably less than 1 or 2%?

And I know that you can argue that it's all because of freewill and it maybe, but why can't God do anything to attract more people to Him or make Himself look more attractive? Either way I must agree, in order to win more people to Him, He must do something to His "public communications committee" ie the church, because for the most part it's a bigger embarrassment than our current US congress.

Again, as I mentioned briefly in other threads, the only way I feel like God is going to fill up heaven and make up for the number of lost souls that He just allows satan to have would be either one, He has other worlds and or other universes with more saved than lost and those numbers make up for the crappy numbers of this world and this universe. Or He will simply create more human beings from scratch or create so type of being whether it's more angels, more cherubs or more whatever.

Because as I mentioned earlier, surely He is not going to just settle for a couple hundred or a couple thousand ugly, bland, dull, boring, hateful, grumpy, legalistic amish quaker prudes who's men have never seen a automobile and who's women's legs,face, and armpits have NEVER SEEN A RAZOR!

So what do you all think, am I right on this assessment? Am I wrong? Let me know why you think that either way. Because after all, even though my assessment on this might sound good and make perfect sense I'm not God and quite honestly, in my opinion at least, I feel like I'm not that close to God or in the know about God like many or most of you here. So let me know what you think about this dilemma and whether or not you think God will do something to help make up for this dilemma and if so what? Thanks for your time guys, GB.

[SeekingSanctuary]

First you are far from the only one to struggle with this. Since the beginning of Christianity this has been a nagging issue in the writings. Look at the apocryphal Revelation of Peter (the one that isn't Gnostic), want to know how it ends? Jesus tells Peter not to worry to much about Hell, it'll be ripped up when the end comes and everyone gets to go to Heaven anyway. Even Christians back then were trying to come up with an answer, even if they had to invent one.

Secondly:

And I know that you can argue that it's all because of freewill and it maybe, but why can't God do anything to attract more people to Him or make Himself look more attractive? Either way I must agree, in order to win more people to Him, He must do something to His "public communications committee" ie the church, because for the most part it's a bigger embarrassment than our current US congress.

And whose fault is that? Ours. This is our responsibility. We are the ones that have to be good Christians. If other Christians aren't living up to their own end of the deal, that's their fault. We can't control them and we certainly can't force them to act right. We can act differently. We can still follow the Word and do our part. Once again, you are far from the only one to see this. Ever hear Mississippi Squirrel by Ray Stevens? If you haven't, Youtube it.

If you don't mind I'm going to give you some advice. Your church issues are really getting to you. Not all churches in every area are like that. Please start looking for a place to go. You might need to go to a neighboring town. I know people who have done that. But please look into it. If you have to, find a few Christians who share your worries and maybe start a home service.

I do think that if things in an area are bad enough God will step in. But I also think you are seeing the world much worse than it really is because you are surrounded by the wrong people.

[1over137]

Because as I mentioned earlier, surely He is not going to just settle for a couple hundred or a couple thousand ugly, bland, dull, boring, hateful, grumpy, legalistic amish quaker prudes who's men have never seen a automobile and who's women's legs,face, and armpits have NEVER SEEN A RAZOR!

DRDS, have you met some Amish?

[DRDS]

I have a time or two, but it was a long time ago. How I got to do that was at the time, my dad worked as a delivery driver for Schwan's ice cream and frozen foods, and on his route ever other week he would go into this area where he serviced several amish.

Now I know what you are thinking, they are amish, they don't believe in using electricity how do they keep ice cream and frozen food from thawing out? Well one of two things, they either keep them at a neighbor's house who happens to NOT be amish or they only get stuff like ice cream and eat it right then.

One of my dad's first encounters with the amish came when he first started that job and he went to a amish school house I believe. It was up on a hill and the group ordered like a couple of gallon tubs of ice cream and right as they did that all of the sudden down the hill came a bunch of amish kids waving spoons in their hands!

And a few times when my dad had that job even though it was against company policy I would ride with him in the delivery truck on his routes which was really cool because I got to meet many of his interesting customers, help him out with things, and get to sample a bunch of ice cream! And I got to meet a few amish people on these routes and I even got to visit a amish general store that sold honey, molasses and other things like that come in jars.

So I mean I don't "know them" know them, but I've been around them a couple of times. I guess I pick on them way too much, but they are just a good analogy or a good mental picture to use when describing something overly religious or overly plain,dull, boring and bland. But I guess they are interesting and unique in their own strange way at the same time. But why were you wondering sweetie? Just curious.

[1over137]

I was wondering and posted the question to better understand your attitude toward them. I was worried you are too judgmental. Well, am still little worried as you would like or not like certain people in Heaven.

Peace

[PaulSacramento]

IMO and according to my understanding:
Satan has no real power, not like God of course.
As James says, Resist the devil and he will flee.
Satan is NOT God's adversary but he is OURS.
His goal is to prove to God how we are NOT deserving of His grace and love.
Satan gets those that of their OWN FREE WILL turn against God and blasphemy the HS.
Those that have no love for God or their fellow man, those that are self-righteous and believe themselves to be better than others, those that do not love others as Christ loves us.
Satan does not force anyone, people that deny God do so of their own free will.
Satan will lie and manipulate but he does not overcome the HS, only we can overcome the HS withing Us and to do that we DECIDE/CHOOSE to deny God and do what we KNOW to be wrong, hateful

[ryanbouma]

Strange thoughts DRDS

I'd suggest your 98% is off base. I believe more people than that will be in heaven. But lets forget about that for a minute. In fact, lets assume 0.00001% make it into heaven. Does that make a difference from the 98%? No. How about 99% make it into heaven... well, 1% still go to hell, so that doesn't make it right either. The question is really not about the number of people. It's about why ANYONE has to go to hell. Once you ask that question; why does God let one person go to hell? then you can start to think about the answers.

For me, the answer is choice. That might not sit well with you, but I truly believe, as CS Lewis proposed, nobody in hell will wonder why they're there. I'm fascinated by NDEs and I'm not sure I've ever read an NDE where the NDEer thought they didn't deserve hell. Our own B.W. stated (forgive me if I have this wrong B.W.) that he knew he deserved hell and he didn't question the judgement. God allows people to make this choice everyday, despite how much it hurts him. I don't really view Satan as having much of anything to do with this. I blame the 98%. Satan merely was the 'peer pressure'. The sinner still chose to commit the act.

Consider this. God gave the angels free will, such that even in God's very own presence, with all the PROOF an atheist could ask for, 1/3 of the angels still chose to fall. Then God went and did it all over again and created humans who have free will and also chose to fall. Do you think, God values free will quite highly, or do you think God made the same mistake twice? Do you think God loved Lucifer and spared his life but judged his actions, or do you think Lucifer was able to fight God. And in the same way, does God spare the eternal lives of humans but judge their actions.

[DRDS]

I was wondering and posted the question to better understand your attitude toward them. I was worried you are too judgmental. Well, am still little worried as you would like or not like certain people in Heaven.

Peace

It's not like I don't want them to be there. It's that their types might be the only kind for the most part, that make it in. That's what worries me. Plus the fact they are very plain, mean, judgmental, self righteous, haters of technology,prudish killjoys almost makes me dread being around them in the afterlife. The fact that it will mainly be people like them and not a wide variety of cultures,people, and people from all various time periods there really bothers me. Plus I'm also worried that God Himself might be a celestial all powerful version of one of them, or at least, that's what I think on bad days. I'm also afraid if they are all there and are the top elite in heaven, their prudish ways of drudgery will be the manner in which everyone will live and thus will make the afterlife horrible to bear. If they are there and God turns them into something that is more desirable, more nice, more loving, more beautiful and less self righteous, hateful, dull and prudish than great. Again, like I said, it's not them, it's the way they act.

[DRDS]

Strange thoughts DRDS

I'd suggest your 98% is off base. I believe more people than that will be in heaven. But lets forget about that for a minute. In fact, lets assume 0.00001% make it into heaven. Does that make a difference from the 98%? No. How about 99% make it into heaven... well, 1% still go to hell, so that doesn't make it right either. The question is really not about the number of people. It's about why ANYONE has to go to hell. Once you ask that question; why does God let one person go to hell? then you can start to think about the answers.

For me, the answer is choice. That might not sit well with you, but I truly believe, as CS Lewis proposed, nobody in hell will wonder why they're there. I'm fascinated by NDEs and I'm not sure I've ever read an NDE where the NDEer thought they didn't deserve hell. Our own B.W. stated (forgive me if I have this wrong B.W.) that he knew he deserved hell and he didn't question the judgement. God allows people to make this choice everyday, despite how much it hurts him. I don't really view Satan as having much of anything to do with this. I blame the 98%. Satan merely was the 'peer pressure'. The sinner still chose to commit the act.

Consider this. God gave the angels free will, such that even in God's very own presence, with all the PROOF an atheist could ask for, 1/3 of the angels still chose to fall. Then God went and did it all over again and created humans who have free will and also chose to fall. Do you think, God values free will quite highly, or do you think God made the same mistake twice? Do you think God loved Lucifer and spared his life but judged his actions, or do you think Lucifer was able to fight God. And in the same way, does God spare the eternal lives of humans but judge their actions.

Well I certainly hope you are right, but one of the other things that no one has addressed yet is if most souls end up in hell, how does God make up for all the lost souls and all the extra empty space in heaven? Do you think He will create more people in other worlds like this one, or do you think He will make more from scratch? Or will He make other beings like angels and so forth? And I still wonder about all the people who make it in but had many lost friends and family members how will they get over the loss?

[ryanbouma]

I don't think you've got a very good understanding of heaven. Even if you enter heaven without a single friend, family member, or even acquaintance, you will not be along. Jesus used imagery like the family of God, and his house, for a reason. The Church, is all believers and we will all know each other intimately and without any bad feelings. On top of that, the unsaved will not be remembered. I know that sounds strange. Maybe you have a child who is unsaved and you think, there's no way. I'll resent God. No, it's not like that. You will be so over joyed for eternity that you won't even think of the unsaved you once knew. Difficult to understand. I know. I can't imagine my son or daughter spending eternity in hell. But if they make that choice, I won't be joining them. Because the flip side, in hell, is aloneness. You will know your loved ones are either with you in hell, or in paradise, but you'll never be with them again. Never even see them.

Your objection about space in heaven. Again I think you're viewing this like an earthly place. God is limitless. There isn't a space problem in heaven. Whether to big of a space or to small. That's not a consideration for God. We will all just want to be close to God. Same with hell unfortunately.

This does raise the question of the new heaven and earth. But we don't really know what that will be like. So best to just trust that God will design that place even better than this earth. That's a subject I know very little about.

[bippy123]

I don't think you've got a very good understanding of heaven. Even if you enter heaven without a single friend, family member, or even acquaintance, you will not be along. Jesus used imagery like the family of God, and his house, for a reason. The Church, is all believers and we will all know each other intimately and without any bad feelings. On top of that, the unsaved will not be remembered. I know that sounds strange. Maybe you have a child who is unsaved and you think, there's no way. I'll resent God. No, it's not like that. You will be so over joyed for eternity that you won't even think of the unsaved you once knew. Difficult to understand. I know. I can't imagine my son or daughter spending eternity in hell. But if they make that choice, I won't be joining them. Because the flip side, in hell, is aloneness. You will know your loved ones are either with you in hell, or in paradise, but you'll never be with them again. Never even see them.

Your objection about space in heaven. Again I think you're viewing this like an earthly place. God is limitless. There isn't a space problem in heaven. Whether to big of a space or to small. That's not a consideration for God. We will all just want to be close to God. Same with hell unfortunately.

This does raise the question of the new heaven and earth. But we don't really know what that will be like. So best to just trust that God will design that place even better than this earth. That's a subject I know very little about.

Some very excellent Points Ryan, but this is also why my prayer list is so huge right now while im on this earth because I dont want hell for anyone
I know one of my local friends in San Diego always tells me that when he prays for everyone he lumps them up as a whole and asks God to protect them every day without naming them specifically. I tried doing that at one time but I just couldnt. I always saw my prayers as a personalized conversation with Christ and I think I owe it to each and every person i pray for to pray for them specifically by name.

[neo-x]

The posts here vaguely made me remember this:

I dreamt death came the other night
And Heaven’s gate swung wide.
An angel with a halo bright
Ushered me inside.

And there! To my astonishment
Stood folks I’d judged and labeled
As “quite unfit,” “of little worth,”
And “spiritually disabled.”

Indignant words rose to my lips
But never were set free,
For every face showed stunned surprise –
Not one expected me!

- Anonymous

[B. W.]

Well, no one knows the number but it does sound like a lot of folks will be in heaven:

Rev 7:9, 10, " After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" NKJV

So, based upon the bible, I would not say that God let's satan have nearly all of humanity
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[DRDS]

Again, I most certainly hope you are right.

[B. W.]

Again, I most certainly hope you are right.

What does the bible say - what we say really doesn't matter...


Rev 7:9, 10, " After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" NKJV


After you figure out how many - no one can number - let us know.

Hana may know the number that no one can number but I digress...
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