Evidence for God from Science

A Jew will tell you the 3 visitors were angels in the form of men.

This is how I interpret Genesis 18.

The LORD comes to visit Abraham and when Abraham looked up he saw three men.

It does sound like the men spoke in unison. “Yes,” they replied, “do as you have said.” 9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. Could it only be two men (the angels) who spoke in unison because the text makes a distinction between two of the men and the LORD?

Then the LORD speaks 10 The Lord said, “I will certainly come back to you in about a year’s time, and your wife Sarah will have a son!”

13 But the Lord asked Abraham

22 The men turned from there and went toward Sodom while Abraham remained standing before the Lord.

Abraham and the LORD have a conversation.

Genesis 18: 33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, He departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

Genesis 19: The two angels entered Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting at Sodom’s gate.

Notice that the text does not say "two of the angels" but "the two angels." The text gives the impression that the three men were two angels and the LORD.

The LORD leaves and "the two angels" go to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Thank you.

If you go to the OT concept of God Thread on this link and scroll down just above the middle of the page to the discussion on Gen 18 - you'll get more information...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 7&start=30
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I had always understood it as two of the vistors were regular angels, and the third one was the Angel of the Lord (God himself manifested in an angelic form).

It's often said that the three vistors are the three members of the Trinity, but that doesn't make much sense as like you said, two of them go into Sodom and speak to Lot. Unless one thinks that the two angels that visited Lot were in fact pre incarnate Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Seraph wrote:I had always understood it as two of the vistors were regular angels, and the third one was the Angel of the Lord (God himself manifested in an angelic form).

It's often said that the three vistors are the three members of the Trinity, but that doesn't make much sense as like you said, two of them go into Sodom and speak to Lot. Unless one thinks that the two angels that visited Lot were in fact pre incarnate Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Below is a quote from the same thread that helps clarify how the word translated angel mean simply a messenger...

B. W. wrote:Post 7

The Malek of Yahweh

The Hebrew word Malek simply means; a messenger, a representative for (to do) a task.

This word is used often to describe angelic beings who bear a message and/or assigned to do task for God. Angelic beings are described as Cherubim (Ezekiel 10:1-15) and Seraphim (Isaiah 6:2-3). Angelic beings bear messages (Matt 1:20) and do task (Matt 28:2). They also sing, and use musical devices. There are archangels too and they have ranks.

Since Cherubim and Seraphim do task and proclaim messages, they are called Maleks (Messengers) in the bible. The word when used does not always mean angelic beings and this is where people become confused. Malek's are also used of human beings who bear a message.

1 Samuel 11:3-4 states that, The elders of Jabesh said to him, "Give us seven days' respite that we may send messengers (Maleks) through all the territory of Israel…4 messengers (Maleks) came to Gibeah of Saul, they reported the matter in the ears of the people, and all the people wept aloud.

These were human Maleks and not angelic beings. Therefore, every where the Hebrew word Malek is used, it does not in all cases mean angelic beings. The word Malek is a generic term for any type person or being that bears a message and does a task. It is unfortunate that people do not understand this and think of Maleks only in angelic terms and definitions. The important thing to note about Maleks is that they speak!

It is how the word Malek is used in the sentence and contextual flow of bible passages is how a person can tell the difference if a Malek is human, angelic, or divine. The word Malek is also used of God himself being a proclaimer of a direct message as well. Yes, Yahweh can be a Malek himself (not an angelic being but the word (John 1:1-14).

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 7&start=15

Next, please look the two Genesis 18 verses over...

Gen 18:1, 2, NASB "Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth..."

In Verse one - who appeared to Abraham?

In Verse two - how did he appear?

Now for a deeper study on the word adon used in verse three go to the anceint Hebrew word letter root - its pictograph and see if any more light can be shed on this:

The pictograph d is a picture of a door. The n is a picture of a seed representing the idea of life.

The concept pictures 'the door of Life' with one that stands at the gate - rule at the gate...

...in the ancient middle east and in the old Hebrew culture, a judge held a position at the gate - door of the city - to dispense knowledge and wisdom that directs people how to live a righteous and pleasant life i.e. rule at the gate - door. Also, the idea of the judge at the door is one who delivers to restore life or to dispense a judgment of death. So the idea of the Door of Life refereed to a judge/ruler/official that would let one pass through the door to life or keep one from finding that life. From the root - we gain a better idea how adonai is applied and understood in the context in is used in.

No wonder Jesus said he was the door in John 10:7,9 ...

Since the context of Genesis 18 is all about restoring life to Sarah's womb as well as passing Judgment on the cities of the plains Gen 18:20, 21 for their wickedness and to measure Lot's effectiveness as a judge at Sodom's gate (door) to dispense and teach righteousness to the city (Gen 18:22-33), you can rest assured that the context sticks close to the root letters pictograph meaning of having Abraham and Sarah pass through the door of life to attain the promise child as well as the passing of judgment on the cities of the plains unable to pass through to life and then also be judging righteous Lot's fruit, though lacking, yet, deliver him through a door of life by means of escape...

You have the deliverer, the life restorer through a door of life, and the Judge issuing a final judgment - in the entire context of Genesis 18 which indicates the full meaning of of the Root letters correctly apply and not just part. In other words, the three men were theophanies of YHWH the deliverer, the life restorer through a door of life, and Judge. Not one Ruler with two attendants but one lord as Abraham answered using the singular - your - to all three and YHWH speaking as he did in Gen 18:21 when He said he would personally go check it out...and two left to check...

This is in line with verse one - only ONE YHWH appeared and revealed his triune nature of the Door of Life i.e. Life restorer, the deliverer, and the Judge.

I know this is a bit deep but, it is there and in this case since all three aspects of the letter word root are in the full and complete context of Gen 18 and 19, and not just one aspect of the root as would be when referring to a human official – suggest the Hebrew root has a definite significance in the interpretation of the text and add this to Jesus’ own words as being the door that leads to life and well… what can you say?
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For more please the last post near bottom of page on this thread...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 7&start=75

as helps explain who the three had to really be...
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B. W. wrote:If you go to the OT concept of God Thread on this link and scroll down just above the middle of the page to the discussion on Gen 18 - you'll get more information...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 7&start=30
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Thanks. That thread is 5 years old and I prefer to start fresh. I want to evaluate the text without reading Christian theology/views into it.

Christian2 wrote:

B. W. wrote:If you go to the OT concept of God Thread on this link and scroll down just above the middle of the page to the discussion on Gen 18 - you'll get more information...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 7&start=30
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Thanks. That thread is 5 years old and I prefer to start fresh. I want to evaluate the text without reading Christian theology/views into it.

That’s good that you seek insight fresh into the text and by fresh does not mean a 5 year old thread is out of date that takes a fresh look at the Old Testament Concept of God.

So in order to take a fresh look into the Gen 18 text as to if the two or the three men were angels or not one has to deal with some serious theological questions and these can be summed up as follows:

How could God say to Moses in Exodus 33:20 that no (mortal) man can look upon the face of God and live and yet, how could Abraham see and speak with God in Gen 18?

You have to deal with Gen 18:1 that YHWH appeared and then in Gen 18:2 – a theophany of three men appeared? - you have the divine name directly associated with YHWH don't you? In the OT you see throughout this theophany of three in how God appeared to people. Hear you have it presented again. God does this, reveal himself in that manner so that people can remain alive when they encounter him for the purposes of God revealed to them at the time.

Next, if the two men were angels who would shield Abraham you have to deal with Abraham answering all three in the singular forms of speech. Add to this the fact that these two left in Gen 18:22 toward Sodom. Abraham stood alone with YHWH and conversed – how could that be possible in light of Exodus 33:20 unless the three were YHWH in a divine Theophany so that Abraham could converse with God as He did so, and still live?

That very principle is found in Exodus 24:9-12 as well as elsewhere such as Judges 13:22 after Manoah and his wife realized they were not entertaining an angelic being but rather the messenger YHWH himself. If the two men were actually angelic beings shielding Abraham or accompanying YHWH, the wording – grammar also does not line up to this in the text either.

In fact, these two were called angels in Genesis 19:1 but identified as two men in Genesis 18:1-2. The traditions from Jewish thought of early middle ages crept into the translation and made these out as angelic beings. Translators following them, took out the easily identifiable theophanies of God in the OT. That tradition is far older than a five year old post that I update often enough.

Now again, if these were merely two angelic beings appearing as men, then one has to do with the strict disobedience to Gods will these angels did in Genesis 19:21 when they, one answered a request by their own will and changed the God’s command to destroy all the cities on the plain, Zoar, the smallest being one, to sparing Zoar that later text show was hostile to Lot.

What happened to Adam and Eve for disobeying God? Were these fallen angels saving Lot – were they kicked out of heaven for openly defying and command of God? The answer is no. The only one who can make that kind of decision is the Lord. This then explains the meaning of

Gen 19:24,25, Then the LORD (YHWH) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (YHWH) out of heaven, 25 and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. NASB

And verified in - Amoos 4:11, "I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD. NASB

Also See from Jewish bible:

Amos 4:11, "I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a brand plucked out of the burning; yet have ye not returned unto Me, saith the LORD." JPS

Add to that the pictograph of the Hebrew root for YHWH in light of the New Testament revelation of Jesus and it makes sense how Abraham could talk with God alone and not become toast as well as the two theophanies (Maleks) Messengers (Son-Holy Spirit) could grant Lot’s request and spare one small city / village on the plain.

I challenge you that it is the traditions of men that keep one from answering these questions and blindly accept the hand me down interpretation that these were angelic beings and not another example of God’s glorious appearing in theophany that line up to his own name revealed in the ancient pictograph Hebrew.
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Since God is all-knowing, He would have known how bad it was in Sodom and by extension so would the angels He sent, so I was puzzled by the verse which says:

20 Then the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether[g] according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.”

Christian2 wrote:Since God is all-knowing, He would have known how bad it was in Sodom and by extension so would the angels He sent, so I was puzzled by the verse which says:

20 Then the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether[g] according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.”

I think The Pulpit Commentary explains it the best in the simplest way ... designed to express the Divine solicitude that the strictest justice should characterize all his dealings both with men and nations

There is a lot in those word...one is despite God foreknowing everything, he still leaves no stone unturned in the exercise of his Justice. It is that leaving no stone unturned manner of his that makes his justice thorough and absolutely just. He was demonstrating this in the text in an anthropomorphic sense, so we can see and learn. Yes, God could have done it at a snap of his finger, but going down there himself, the depravity of the area was proven as an attack on him and humanity, justifying his reprisal. In doing so, he saved the only righteous person in the city as well too, even granted Lot's request, which shows another aspect of God justice as well too.

I read on a box of herbal tea today at the store and it stated that this tea helps eliminate free radicals out of the body. That got me to think, "wow, it is empirically shown that radicals hurt the human by building toxins, therefore, why does this then not apply to political radicals constantly appointed by the Pres of the US to positions of power and why was he voted the most radical left leaning senator in the senate before running for pres? How much damage has so far been to the USA done..."

Sometimes, God acts in ways to expose what true radical behavior is and really is like before he acts. God promises to warn about pending judgment to to his own people before he acts with judgement. In a sense, he is demonstrating that principle in the Gen 18:21 text.

The Pulpit Commentary

Gen 18:21

I will go down now (cf. Gen_11:5), and see (judicial investigation ever precedes judicial infliction at the Divine tribunal) whether they have done altogether—literally, whether they have made cow, piousness, i.e. carried their iniquity to perfection, to the highest pitch of wickedness (Calvin, Delitzsch, Keil); or consummated their wickedness, by carrying it to that pitch of fullness which works death (Ainsworth, Kalisch, Rosenmller). The received rendering, which regards כלה as an adverb, has the authority of Luther and Gesenius—according to the cry of it, which has come unto me; and if not, I will know. The LXX. render ἵνα γνῶ, meaning, "should it not be so, I will still go down, that I may ascertain the exact truth;" the Chaldee paraphrases, "and if they repent, I will not exact punishment." The entire verse is anthropomorphic, and designed to express the Divine solicitude that the strictest justice should characterize all his dealings both with men and nations.

Hope this helps...


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B. W. wrote:

Christian2 wrote:Since God is all-knowing, He would have known how bad it was in Sodom and by extension so would the angels He sent, so I was puzzled by the verse which says:

20 Then the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether[g] according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.”

I think The Pulpit Commentary explains it the best in the simplest way ... designed to express the Divine solicitude that the strictest justice should characterize all his dealings both with men and nations

There is a lot in those word...one is despite God foreknowing everything, he still leaves no stone unturned in the exercise of his Justice. It is that leaving no stone unturned manner of his that makes his justice thorough and absolutely just. He was demonstrating this in the text in an anthropomorphic sense, so we can see and learn. Yes, God could have done it at a snap of his finger, but going down there himself, the depravity of the area was proven as an attack on him and humanity, justifying his reprisal. In doing so, he saved the only righteous person in the city as well too, even granted Lot's request, which shows another aspect of God justice as well too.

I read on a box of herbal tea today at the store and it stated that this tea helps eliminate free radicals out of the body. That got me to think, "wow, it is empirically shown that radicals hurt the human by building toxins, therefore, why does this then not apply to political radicals constantly appointed by the Pres of the US to positions of power and why was he voted the most radical left leaning senator in the senate before running for pres? How much damage has so far been to the USA done..."

Sometimes, God acts in ways to expose what true radical behavior is and really is like before he acts. God promises to warn about pending judgment to to his own people before he acts with judgement. In a sense, he is demonstrating that principle in the Gen 18:21 text.

The Pulpit Commentary

Gen 18:21

I will go down now (cf. Gen_11:5), and see (judicial investigation ever precedes judicial infliction at the Divine tribunal) whether they have done altogether—literally, whether they have made cow, piousness, i.e. carried their iniquity to perfection, to the highest pitch of wickedness (Calvin, Delitzsch, Keil); or consummated their wickedness, by carrying it to that pitch of fullness which works death (Ainsworth, Kalisch, Rosenmller). The received rendering, which regards כלה as an adverb, has the authority of Luther and Gesenius—according to the cry of it, which has come unto me; and if not, I will know. The LXX. render ἵνα γνῶ, meaning, "should it not be so, I will still go down, that I may ascertain the exact truth;" the Chaldee paraphrases, "and if they repent, I will not exact punishment." The entire verse is anthropomorphic, and designed to express the Divine solicitude that the strictest justice should characterize all his dealings both with men and nations.

Hope this helps...


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Thank you for your response.

This is similar to the account in Jonah.

Jonah 1 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it, for their evil[a] has come up before me.”

Jonah 3: 5 And the people of Nineveh believed God.

7 And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, 8 but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish.”

10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.

But the people of Sodom and Gomorrah did not repent and were destroyed.