Evidence for God from Science

When I held a young earth perspective, this verse made no sense to me. People tried to explain that 2,000 years is "at hand" for God using Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, but that didn't help at all. It is true that time is different to God than to humans. However, the Bible was written for us, not God. If the earth were only 6,000 years old, the 21st century (or later) could not have been "at hand" or "near" in the first century, because the time since Peter wrote this would be a whole third of history, and if Jesus tarries another 2,000 years it would be half of all history. It would seem deceptive to say it was near back then from a YEC perspective. The only other way the verse would make sense from a YEC perspective would be Full Preterism, but it has serious problems and is false doctrine.

However, if the earth is billions of years old, then 2,000 years is a very tiny amount of time by comparison. Even 5,000 or 10,000 years would be very short. Even if we count only human history (50,000 - 200,000 years), 2,000 years could still be considered at hand.

I don't see these verses speaking to YEC or OEC, even obliquely:

Psalm 90:1 O Lord, you have been our protector through all generations!

90:2 Even before the mountains came into existence, or you brought the world into being, you were the eternal God.

90:3 You make mankind return to the dust, and say, “Return, O people!”

90:4 Yes, in your eyes a thousand years are like yesterday that quickly passes, or like one of the divisions of the nighttime.

90:5 You bring their lives to an end and they “fall asleep.” In the morning they are like the grass that sprouts up;

90:6 in the morning it glistens and sprouts up; at evening time it withers and dries up.

1 Peter 4:7 For the culmination of all things is near. So be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of prayer. 4:8 Above all keep your love for one another fervent, because love covers a multitude of sins. 4:9 Show hospitality to one another without complaining. 4:10 Just as each one has received a gift, use it to serve one another as good stewards of the varied grace of God. 4:11 Whoever speaks, let it be with God’s words. Whoever serves, do so with the strength that God supplies, so that in everything God will be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.

2 Peter 3:5 For they deliberately suppress this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water. 3:6 Through these things the world existing at that time was destroyed when it was deluged with water. 3:7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, by being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

3:8 Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day. 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; when it comes, the heavens will disappear with a horrific noise, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze, and the earth and every deed done on it will be laid bare.

The Psalm is contrasting the Creator and His creations. One way in which God transcends humans is that God is eternal. God does not merely live longer than humans. God created time, in which humans exist and by which we are bound. God is outside of time, so a human day or lifetime is not any more significant to God than a thousand years.

The 2 Peter passage speaks of several things: God's righteousness justice; God's mercy (patience); God's eternality; the sureness God's word, by which He acts in creation. The focus is God's coming judgment - the Flood being cited as a past example - in which God's justice, mercy and eternality have their part in how/when God acts.

1 Peter 4:7 is part of Peter's closing exhortation to Godly living and service, invoking the coming judgment - possibly imminent, possibly distant - as extra motivation.

The age of the Earth is not referenced or alluded to in these passages, nor do they make any more sense within an OEC perspective. On the contrary, they are at least as understandable and significant from a YEC perspective (which I hold). On the contrary, one need not be an ultra-literalist to wonder how OEC folks' vaguely dismissive views of the first 11 chapters of Genesis - ~20% of the second largest book in the Bible, i.e. not some tiny obscure part of the Bible - might be reflected in their views of other uncomfortable or inconvenient parts of the Bible.

Pete wrote:
The age of the Earth is not referenced or alluded to in these passages, nor do they make any more sense within an OEC perspective. On the contrary, they are at least as understandable and significant from a YEC perspective (which I hold). On the contrary, one need not be an ultra-literalist to wonder how OEC folks' vaguely dismissive views of the first 11 chapters of Genesis - ~20% of the second largest book in the Bible, i.e. not some tiny obscure part of the Bible - might be reflected in their views of other uncomfortable or inconvenient parts of the Bible.

Pete,

What do you mean by "vaguely dismissive views of the first 11 chapters of Genesis"?

Pete,

I know they don't refer to the age of the earth, but the phrase "at hand" makes more sense from an OEC view than YEC. Two thousand years is a big chunk of time if the earth were young.

Gilligan wrote:Pete,

I know they don't refer to the age of the earth, but the phrase "at hand" makes more sense from an OEC view than YEC. Two thousand years is a big chunk of time if the earth were young.

You mistakenly assume "at hand" means something along the lines of "the time is short."

It does not. Here are all the other places where the word is used in the NT: Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 10:7; 15:8; 21:1, 34; 26:45, 46; Mark 1:15; 11:1; 14:42; Luke 7:12; 10:9, 11; 12:33; 15:1, 25; 18:35, 40; 19:29, 37, 41; 21:8, 20, 28; 22:1, 47; 24:15, 28; Acts 7:17; 9:3; 10:9; 21:33; 22:6; 23:15; Rom. 13:12; Heb, 7:19; 10:25; Jas. 4:8; 5:8; 1 Pet. 4:7.

As you can see, the word has the idea of bringing one thing close to another, such that is has the idea of "approaching." I would translate the 1 Pet. 4:7 as follows:

• Now the consummation of all things is approaching; therefore, you are all to be sober and alert so that you can pray.

Peter has no interset here in the temporal proximity of "the end times." He is interested in the old way of living vs. the new way of living, and he is saying that sense the Consummation is coming, we need to be watchful. We need to be dilligent. Don't live in sin, for that hinders our prayers. Whether that consummation was to come in two or two hundred or two thousand or two hundred thousand years is irrelevant. The very fact that it is coming--and that it could come at any moment--means that we are to conduct ourselves according to the new way, not the old.

So, no, I'm sorry. This verse doesn't make better sense in light of OEC than YEC. It doesn't make better sense in light of YEC than OEC. You are reading something into the text (namely, a proximity of time) that just isn't there.

edit:

I would also say that your reading of the text makes the imperatives rather silly, actually. If "at hand" means "temporally close," and "temporally close" means "at least two thousand years" (and you justify that as being "close" by appealing to the whole universe's history), then you have Peter saying that because Jesus is coming back in thousands of years, we need to be watchful and waiting for it.

What?

That is what doesn't make sense. All we need to say is what Peter says. The consummation is approacing. We don't know when it will come. But it is coming, and that in and of itself is an amazing truth. It is coming and we know Him who brings it. Therefore, in light of that it is being brought near--in light of its coming, its imminence--we need to be watchful and sober and pray. That does make sense.

To me "at hand" did seem to mean "around the corner". The reason I say we should always be watchful and ready isn't because of what Peter said, but because Jesus said to. This is true whether it is today or thousands of years from today, because we have no idea when.

Gilligan wrote:Pete,

I know they don't refer to the age of the earth, but the phrase "at hand" makes more sense from an OEC view than YEC. Two thousand years is a big chunk of time if the earth were young.

That last statement might be correct, were Moses and Peter speaking of humans' perspective. But they are speaking of the perspective of God, Who created and is this not within or subject to time. From God's perspective, the passage of time is irrelevant, and His purposes are all that matters. Peter is reminding his readers that they need to see the time till Jesus return from God's perspective, God's purposes, rather than a human perspective in which a lifetime of 50-100 years is "a big chunk of time". These verses are no less easily or fully understood in any aspect to some one of YEC views. OTOH, I think perhaps your OEC inclination may have you seeing something in these verses that is not there.

Rick, there is a large range of Christians who hold to flavors of OEC and Theistic Evolution. I was posting under time pressure (as I am now, BTW) and that was the least awful way of expressing a meaning that I think cannot be expressed briefly (because of that broad range within the OEC/TE perspective). For some of the OEC/TE perspective, I overstated their respect for Scripture; for others I understated it. So, rather than making a kerfuffle about a perceived lack of respect, if you know the shoe doesn't fit, don't try it on.

Pete wrote:
Rick, there is a large range of Christians who hold to flavors of OEC and Theistic Evolution. I was posting under time pressure (as I am now, BTW) and that was the least awful way of expressing a meaning that I think cannot be expressed briefly (because of that broad range within the OEC/TE perspective). For some of the OEC/TE perspective, I overstated their respect for Scripture; for others I understated it. So, rather than making a kerfuffle about a perceived lack of respect, if you know the shoe doesn't fit, don't try it on.

I agree that there's a VERY large range within OEC.
And while I'm OEC(not OCD ) I have seen the lack of respect for scripture, specifically from some who take an "extreme" TE position.

And thank you for broadening my vocabulary

ker·fuf·fle
kərˈfəfəl/
nounBRIT.informal
1.
a commotion or fuss, esp. one caused by conflicting views.

Gilligan wrote:To me "at hand" did seem to mean "around the corner". The reason I say we should always be watchful and ready isn't because of what Peter said, but because Jesus said to. This is true whether it is today or thousands of years from today, because we have no idea when.

It's an easy assumption to make, I grant you, but it's just not correct. I emphasize, we need to make sure we don't make it because it renders the entire passage meaningless if not misleading and plainly false. The reason you are being watchful may not be because of what Peter said here, but the fact is that Peter DID say to be watchful here, and he said it in direct connection with the Consummation as "approaching." If, then, you insist on reading "approaching" to mean "temporally near," then you (certainly unintentionally) make a mockery of the notion of being watchful. I realize your OP was intended to justify how the Consummation could be "near" given the 2,000 year gap. But my point is even if we accept that justification, it totally obliterates the basis of the command to be watchful and waiting. I would also add that I don't find your particular justification very compelling anyway for the shear reason that it needs justification. Your whole argument implicitly recognizes that 2,000 years is not "near," so you are therefore trying to find a way to show that it can be considered "near" after all. But the very moment you bring in the observation that 2,000 years isn't "near," you sort of give away the farm.

No, better to go with what the word actually means rather than what it might mean if applied metaphorically to a temporal context. Peter says just what he means and no more. The Consummation is coming; it is imminent; it could happen at any moment; it is "near" (the metaphor being spatial more than temporal); therefore, live lives of righteousness, of watchfulness, not of sinfulness which will prevent you from praying (a reading that, by the way, fits remarkably well with the overall context).