John 16:13

[Christian2]

John 16:13
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come.

John 16:13
English Standard Version (ESV)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Exactly what is this Scripture saying? If the Holy Spirit is God, then why doesn't He speak on His own authority?

Thank you.

[B. W.]

John 16:13
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come.

John 16:13
English Standard Version (ESV)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Exactly what is this Scripture saying? If the Holy Spirit is God, then why doesn't He speak on His own authority?

Thank you.

Based on the same principle as found in John 12:49 NKJV: "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak."

That is how. Therefore, what does this reveal to you personally?

Next, please note the usage of the word translated 'we' in John 3:11 NASB: "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony."

The word translated 'we' in John 3:11 is derived from the word translated 'our' in the text from a Greek plural pronoun for 'our'. Here in this portion of text, you have the same agreement between the Godhead mentioned. It would take a bit of time to go into the Christian doctrine of divine Trinity, so in order to gain insight into this think of it in this manner: as the the Father has wisdom, the Son has the same wisdom, and the Holy Spirit has same wisdom.

The three have the same wisdom because they are one. It is in the expression, or procession, of wisdom is where the difference comes in. The Father knows all things and the wisdom on what to do. The Son carries out the wisdom - proceeds - does the work, designs, carries out wisdom from the Father (Col 1:16,17, Hebrews 1:2). The Holy Spirit - proceeds - and establishes and empowers the wisdom from the Father (Eph 1:13,14, Acts 1:4,8). This is a simplistic explanation and by no means complete but enough for you to explore and prayerfully consider. In others words see how John 16:13 will work for you on a personal level.

In this manner Jesus could say:

"For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak."John 12:49 NKJV

"Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony."John 3:11 NASB

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13 ESV
-
-
-

[Christian2]

John 16:13
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come.

John 16:13
English Standard Version (ESV)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Exactly what is this Scripture saying? If the Holy Spirit is God, then why doesn't He speak on His own authority?

Thank you.

Based on the same principle as found in John 12:49 NKJV: "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak."

That is how. Therefore, what does this reveal to you personally?

Next, please note the usage of the word translated 'we' in John 3:11 NASB: "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony."

The word translated 'we' in John 3:11 is derived from the word translated 'our' in the text from a Greek plural pronoun for 'our'. Here in this portion of text, you have the same agreement between the Godhead mentioned. It would take a bit of time to go into the Christian doctrine of divine Trinity, so in order to gain insight into this think of it in this manner: as the the Father has wisdom, the Son has the same wisdom, and the Holy Spirit has same wisdom.

The three have the same wisdom because they are one. It is in the expression, or procession, of wisdom is where the difference comes in. The Father knows all things and the wisdom on what to do. The Son carries out the wisdom - proceeds - does the work, designs, carries out wisdom from the Father (Col 1:16,17, Hebrews 1:2). The Holy Spirit - proceeds - and establishes and empowers the wisdom from the Father (Eph 1:13,14, Acts 1:4,8). This is a simplistic explanation and by no means complete but enough for you to explore and prayerfully consider. In others words see how John 16:13 will work for you on a personal level.

In this manner Jesus could say:

"For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak."John 12:49 NKJV

"Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony."John 3:11 NASB

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13 ESV
-
-
-

Thanks, B.W.

I'm dealing with a Muslim, I've tried my best to explain the concept of the Trinity to him, but I am no expert. He still does not understand it even though several Christians have tried to help him and suggested books that could be helpful.

I thought I could get some help here on G&S -- something I hadn't tried before.

I explained that there is what we might call an hierarchy within the Trinity. That is why the Christ could say "the Father is greater than I?"

I've explained that the Father sends and Holy Spirit and the Son; the Spirit does not send the Father and the Son does not send the Father.

He said if that were so, then the son and the holy spirit are just AGENTS of God...because they take orders from God...they lack sovreignity and therefore, the son and the holy spirit cannot be God.

"Does God take orders from God?"

In the case of the Holy Spirit: "It is obvious that the holy spirit, like Jesus... only speaks what he hears. Therefore he cannot be God."

See what I mean?

[B. W.]

Thanks, B.W.

I'm dealing with a Muslim, I've tried my best to explain the concept of the Trinity to him, but I am no expert. He still does not understand it even though several Christians have tried to help him and suggested books that could be helpful.

I thought I could get some help here on G&S -- something I hadn't tried before.

I explained that there is what we might call an hierarchy within the Trinity. That is why the Christ could say "the Father is greater than I?"

I've explained that the Father sends and Holy Spirit and the Son; the Spirit does not send the Father and the Son does not send the Father.

He said if that were so, then the son and the holy spirit are just AGENTS of God...because they take orders from God...they lack sovreignity and therefore, the son and the holy spirit cannot be God.

"Does God take orders from God?"

In the case of the Holy Spirit: "It is obvious that the holy spirit, like Jesus... only speaks what he hears. Therefore he cannot be God."

See what I mean?

I am not sure how to reach a muslim as the one's I have encountered are rather - violently stubborn - seeking to covert you by you trying to convert them. Some of these people are plants, for that purpose I would caution you in dealing with them.

Below is a link, you may have seen it but if not, it does give pointers on this:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchris ... chap2.html

Again, stress that God is incomprehensible and Islam attempts to make God comprehensible yet transcendent. How Can - god their allah - be transcendent and remain comprehensible at the same time?

I am not sure they could answer that without some difficulty...

From there I would build off that...

I do not think they could understand the concept of procession and the nature of God as the living God, and that therefore, by his own processions would thereby be living too - to carry out His will. God remains one yet, three persons of God's divine essence too. Not three different God's but rather how God is, which is incomprehensible and truly transcendent. None like Him at all. God's oneness transcends our human logic and supports his own statements about himself as none like him so his oneness is unlike any other form of oneness we can conceive of.

Please take a look t the link and see if anything there helps.
-
-
-

[Jac3510]

Part of the problem is that, in the end, God is ineffable (something your friend should agree with), which means that while we can have some language to help us with the Trinity, in the end, we will always be left with, "but not quite." That's hardly a problem unique to the Trinity, though. As I said, it is a problem with "God language" generally.

With that said, some language is more helpful than others, I would actually avoid hierarchy language for the very reason that your friend cited. Instead, start with a concept he is familiar with. Ask him how many wills there are in God. The answer, of course, is that numerically one will in God. Then tell them that the same thing is true with the Trinity.

This is actually something I think that Christians get confused on. We tend to think that each of the three Persons has their own will, and that the wills of the Son and the will of the Holy Spirit "line up with" the Father's. But the classical view is that all three Persons have the same will. It's not that they will the same thing, but that they each have exactly the same One (and when you get even stricter, you would say that each Person IS that one will, because God is His esssence, a concept that many Muslims see in the tawhid).

On that view, the Holy Spirit doesn't have a will that is subserviant to the Father, but rather the Holy Spirit and the Father "share" (or, technically, hypostatize) that will. The Spirit "hears" the Father in His relation to Him. The Father is the relation of paternity; the spirit of spiration.

None of that is to say that the Holy Spirit is not sent from the Father. He is. He is, in fact, sent from the Father and the Son. Here, if you care, the filoque argument comes up. There is absolutely NO way to distinguish between the Persons of the Godhead (since they are precisely the same substance) except by their relations to one another. That means that if the Son proceeds from the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (but not the Son), then there would be no way to distinguish between the Spirit and Son. Both would proceed from the Father, but then in what way could we say that the Spirit is not the Son? So what the Church has said is that the Son comes from the Father and that the Spirt comes from the Son AND the Father.

So the language here is not hierarchical, but relational. It is in this relational context that the Spirit (and Son for that matter) hear and act according to the Father's will. Strictly, they have (and are) the same will; but we may speak of Them as hearing "from" Him insofar as They proceed from Him (and the Spirit, from Him and the Son).

I don't know how helpful all this is, but I hope it at least gets you going on a helpful path . . .

[Christian2]

Thanks, B.W.

I'm dealing with a Muslim, I've tried my best to explain the concept of the Trinity to him, but I am no expert. He still does not understand it even though several Christians have tried to help him and suggested books that could be helpful.

I thought I could get some help here on G&S -- something I hadn't tried before.

I explained that there is what we might call an hierarchy within the Trinity. That is why the Christ could say "the Father is greater than I?"

I've explained that the Father sends and Holy Spirit and the Son; the Spirit does not send the Father and the Son does not send the Father.

He said if that were so, then the son and the holy spirit are just AGENTS of God...because they take orders from God...they lack sovreignity and therefore, the son and the holy spirit cannot be God.

"Does God take orders from God?"

In the case of the Holy Spirit: "It is obvious that the holy spirit, like Jesus... only speaks what he hears. Therefore he cannot be God."

See what I mean?

I am not sure how to reach a muslim as the one's I have encountered are rather - violently stubborn - seeking to covert you by you trying to convert them. Some of these people are plants, for that purpose I would caution you in dealing with them.

Below is a link, you may have seen it but if not, it does give pointers on this:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchris ... chap2.html

Again, stress that God is incomprehensible and Islam attempts to make God comprehensible yet transcendent. How Can - god their allah - be transcendent and remain comprehensible at the same time?

I am not sure they could answer that without some difficulty...

From there I would build off that...

I do not think they could understand the concept of procession and the nature of God as the living God, and that therefore, by his own processions would thereby be living too - to carry out His will. God remains one yet, three persons of God's divine essence too. Not three different God's but rather how God is, which is incomprehensible and truly transcendent. None like Him at all. God's oneness transcends our human logic and supports his own statements about himself as none like him so his oneness is unlike any other form of oneness we can conceive of.

Please take a look t the link and see if anything there helps.
-
-
-

I've just printed the article. Thanks.

[Christian2]

Part of the problem is that, in the end, God is ineffable (something your friend should agree with), which means that while we can have some language to help us with the Trinity, in the end, we will always be left with, "but not quite." That's hardly a problem unique to the Trinity, though. As I said, it is a problem with "God language" generally.

With that said, some language is more helpful than others, I would actually avoid hierarchy language for the very reason that your friend cited. Instead, start with a concept he is familiar with. Ask him how many wills there are in God. The answer, of course, is that numerically one will in God. Then tell them that the same thing is true with the Trinity.

This is actually something I think that Christians get confused on. We tend to think that each of the three Persons has their own will, and that the wills of the Son and the will of the Holy Spirit "line up with" the Father's. But the classical view is that all three Persons have the same will. It's not that they will the same thing, but that they each have exactly the same One (and when you get even stricter, you would say that each Person IS that one will, because God is His esssence, a concept that many Muslims see in the tawhid).

On that view, the Holy Spirit doesn't have a will that is subserviant to the Father, but rather the Holy Spirit and the Father "share" (or, technically, hypostatize) that will. The Spirit "hears" the Father in His relation to Him. The Father is the relation of paternity; the spirit of spiration.

None of that is to say that the Holy Spirit is not sent from the Father. He is. He is, in fact, sent from the Father and the Son. Here, if you care, the filoque argument comes up. There is absolutely NO way to distinguish between the Persons of the Godhead (since they are precisely the same substance) except by their relations to one another. That means that if the Son proceeds from the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (but not the Son), then there would be no way to distinguish between the Spirit and Son. Both would proceed from the Father, but then in what way could we say that the Spirit is not the Son? So what the Church has said is that the Son comes from the Father and that the Spirt comes from the Son AND the Father.

So the language here is not hierarchical, but relational. It is in this relational context that the Spirit (and Son for that matter) hear and act according to the Father's will. Strictly, they have (and are) the same will; but we may speak of Them as hearing "from" Him insofar as They proceed from Him (and the Spirit, from Him and the Son).

I don't know how helpful all this is, but I hope it at least gets you going on a helpful path . . .

Thanks Jac. Anything you offer is helpful.