1over137 wrote:B. W. wrote:1over137 wrote:I read a book and it reminded me
1 Timothy 2:1-3
Yes, we should do that even for leaders we do not like.
That is a good question...
...the founders of the USA debated this very thing in throwing off the yoke of abuse heaped upon them from the concept of the divine right of kings...
A good study is how they reasoned when a Govt can be abolished for abuses imposed upon its citizens.
B.W., could you rewrite that in simple English for me?
Simple English? Me?
Look up the American Revolution 1775-1783 - causes and grievances and you should see what I mean.
Let me pose some European models for you too;
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a German minister/theologian who opposed the Nazi regime from the moment of its rise to power to its very end. What made him do this? Did Bonhoeffer disobey God by not submitting to the governing authorities?
From the historical record, the Nazi's take over of Germany also involved inserting their own disciples within the Lutheran and Christian Churches in Germany. They manipulated pastors to conform to Nazi ideology. In fact, Adolf Hitler said this, "
You can do anything you want with them. They will submit ... they are insignificant little people, submissive doges and they sweat with embarrassment when you talk to them." (Decision, May 2014, article - Following Jesus, No Matter the Cost").
The Nazi's manipulated the churches to bow to the whim of public opinion and all who opposed were silenced. Dietrich Bonhoeffer would not compromise and wrote his famous work - Cost of Discipleship -where he penned this quote: "
Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act."
Midst this background the Nazi's influenced theology to accept the public opinion they themselves shaped in order to justify their crimes under the disguise of national laws. Midst this, was Bonhoeffer wrong for going against this abusive disgusting government?
Listen to this quote from Bonhoeffer as it expresses in simple words one of the means by which the German Church of the 1930-40's was being manipulated:
"
Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession...Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Cheap Grace was taught as a norm in Germany which paved the way for compromise to the will of governmental/media inducements to influence public opinion.
Now look at these quotes:
"
Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: 'Ye were bought at a price', and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
"
And if we answer the call to discipleship, where will it lead us? What decisions and partings will it demand?" Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, like the apostles in Acts 4:19 - they openly disobeyed the governing elites - were they wrong? Would we be if confronted?
In the USA, Traditional Marriage, as being understood as being between one man and one woman by vast majority of the population is now considered a great evil to be squashed because of a small minuscule segment of society says it discriminates against their lifestyle choices. You have Christian groups, organizations, and churches compromising and sanctioning things God disapproves of. You have in America, an slow stead march of leftist liberal theologians who are redefining what Christians must believe. Soon, Christianity, by governing elites will be forced to change or be destroyed. What are we to do? Just obey or be a true disciple of Christ Jesus? What does that look like for us?
Re-call that both John the Baptist and Jesus did not exactly get along with the governing bodies of their era either. They respect governing authority but when that authority crossed the line, they denounced it as well. Therefore the injunction found in Romans 13:1-14 does have a specific context of showing respect for governing authorities by paying taxes, etc and etc. Yet, when that authority tosses you to the lions as well as force one to deny God... then matters change. The idea of Romans 13:1-4 is explained in Romans 12:21, "
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
If you leave out that verse, then Romans 13:1-14 loses its intended meaning. Dietrich Bonhoeffer expressed Romans 12:21 by his life and writings and in how he opposed the nazification of the German church, culture, and society. The Apostles did so too in their respective era of Governing bodies and authorities of their days.
Lastly, there are times when one cannot live a peace with all men (Rom 12:18c) and Eccl 3:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 expresses that there are times and seasons. The Founders of the United States, those whom signed the
Declaration of Independence wrestled with the time and season concept too. Back then, King George imposed the Divine Right of Kings upon the colonies and began imposing arbitrary laws, search and seizure of property, bogas sanctions, stacking the legal system to his favor, heavy unjust taxation, etc and etc... Many of the people living in the Colonies had fled Europe due to religious persecution and govt meddling to manipulate state run churches to sanction the abuses of governing powers and now, it was happening again. They had nowhere else to go. Their backs were against the proverbial wall. What would any of us have done back then?
Now look hard at the United States founding document quoted below.
A Transcription:
The Declaration of Independence
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.