Oregon School Shooting

[Danieltwotwenty]

Another day another school shooting in America, the only country in the world where this happens on a regular basis, this is the 74th shooting since the Newtown massacre which was only 18 months ago.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-chuck ... f=religion

Too many people worship guns instead of God. But God calls us to be people of reconciliation and justice. We are told to turn our weapons into plowshares. People of faith have forcibly cried out for new measures to turn the tide only to meet the roadblock that is the NRA. Still, Jesus and the disciples were stronger then all the Roman Empire two thousand years ago. The Cross lobby will still prevail against the gun lobby.

Prayers for an end to the violence, for the victims and the changing of hearts and minds.

[Gman]

Another day another school shooting in America, the only country in the world where this happens on a regular basis, this is the 74th shooting since the Newtown massacre which was only 18 months ago.

Very sad indeed... There are so many of these weird instances these days it's almost like old news now.. It's just as the Bible predicted.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

And now they want to legalize drugs? G-d help us....

Prayers up..

[neo-x]

this is extremely sad, why is this becoming an american culture staple?

[B. W.]

Here is a report to counter the report:

Counter report still in progrss

I am not sure those oversea's understand how diabolically political it is here in the USA over the big push by Obama to ban Guns and the use of crisis to gain absolute tyrannical political power over all. Mr Obama mentioned recently that he will will go unilaterally to ban guns. After this, a report comes out as well as a big push that says - guns are bad you need us to protect you from evil gun owners. Well it takes a human being to pull the trigger of a gun and guess what? It is people with violent mental health issues that are responsible for school shootings coupled with that the decline over the value of life pushed by the left in this country (abortion - anything goes life style, devaluing of objective morality). We should be investing in major Mental Health issues and actually locking the violent insane up in institutions not letting them run loose in America due to leftist feel good politics for the violent mentally ill rights to walk freely among us. A recipe for disaster or was it contrived long?

The bigger and real issue is why would big uncontrolled, unchecked, unilateral Govt want to deny the 2nd Amendment rights guaranteed to law abiding US Citizens?

The 2nd amendment was the last resort for redress against the tyranny of of such unilateral Govt as well as the ability to protect ourselves from criminal thugs and this current abusive Govt seeks to use crisis either created, or contrived to fit their agenda to ensure dictatorship. Recall that the left in this country hate America and seeks it demise at all cost and seeks to fundamentally transform a once great nation into a third world tin pot dictatorship where a ruling elite has absolute unchecked power over its citizens. The stakes are high. The release of the violently mentally ill from the policies of deinstitutionalization in the USA has predicable results.

Fact is, law abiding good citizens do not use guns to kill folks for sport, revenge, or imaginary fiends. They wish to be left alone, raise their kids, and have the abusive unilateral Govt types to stop its war against farmers in order to save the Prebel's Jumping Mouse, or stop the EPA over its abuse of water rights for farmers and ranchers ... and a host of over odd laws...

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/spe ... ls/preble/

http://personalliberty.com/thats-enough ... en-parody/

Our country has crossed over to the politically insane and if they have their way, they'll have all the guns and then what?


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P.S. f\For you all overseas, the USA is not how its left leaning media portrays it for pure political gain/propaganda value. Therefore, please do not be fooled. In England their was a mass schooling shooting a few years back and another mass shooting at a camp in Norway. These are not reflective of the mentally of those countries and neither should it be reflective of what it is like in the USA everywhere, everyday, and in every way. Don't be fooled...

[Proinsias]

Terrible news, thoughts are with all those touched by this.

B.W: The shootings in Norway & the UK prompted a large public outcry to control arms further alongside mental health & background check reforms. The school shooting here in Scotland 15 or 20 years ago prompted a clampdown on the already stringent gun laws, alongside mental health & backround checks, and seems to have been pretty successful. Over here the reaction seems to be: "What on earth can we do to prevent this in future", over there much of the reaction seems to be: "What on earth, aside from any changes to gun ownership, can we do to prevent this."

That first link you provided is disturbing. No problems here, some of the shootings were after the bell went, others were simply teenagers being shot in parking lot or gunmen running through campus during shootouts with the police or pupils shooting themselves........all cool then......

[Danieltwotwenty]

We had a mass shooting at Port Arthur 28–29 April 1996, gun restriction came into force soon after, haven't had a mass shooting since. There is no need to own an automatic or even a semi automatic rife, pistol or shotgun, if you can't kill your game with one shot, you don't deserve to be a hunter.

[Gman]

Over here the reaction seems to be: "What on earth can we do to prevent this in future", over there much of the reaction seems to be: "What on earth, aside from any changes to gun ownership, can we do to prevent this."

Well when you think about it, if we tell people they are nothing more than animals and they are not made in the image of G-d, well it has it's consequences. People start behaving like animals. Might as well take drugs and seek earthly pleasures.

[melanie]

This issue of gun ownership and the American culture surrounding it, especially from the right-wing christian sectors has long, baffled, disturbed and quite frankly at times angered me. I do not buy into political propaganda on either side of the issue but into common sense and with spiritual and scriptural reflection. People are dying, children are dying unnecessarily and something has to done.
The shooting Daniel is referring to that happened here in Australia is not the first shooting massacre we have had but the largest in living memory, 35 people died including children as young as 3 and 20 were injured. The tragedy sparked an explosion of public outrage, soul-searching and demands from the Australian public for better regulation of guns. We changed our laws. As a result gun deaths in Australia have dropped by two-thirds, and we have never had another mass shooting. Every country is unique, but Australia does have similarities to America in our frontier history and a strong gun culture. At the time of the shooting Australia's firearm mortality rate per population was 2.6/100,000 which was one quarter the US rate, today that rate is under 1/100,000 and less than one tenth the US rate, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics and the US Center for Disease Control. Those figures represent all gun deaths. homicide, suicide and unintentional. When you look at only homicide rates, the US outstrips Australia 30 fold.
The 1996 reforms made gun laws tighter and semi-automatic rifles were prohibited (with narrow exceptions), and the world's biggest buyback saw nearly 70,000 guns removed from circulation and destroyed. The licensing and registration systems of all states and territories were harmonised and linked, so someone barred from owning guns in one state can no longer acquire them in another. All guns sales are subject to screening, which means you cannot buy guns over the internet or private sale. Gun ownership requires a license and every sale is subject to a 28-day waiting period. the licensing process considers not only the applicants age and criminal convictions, but also a range of other factors relevant to possession of a product that is not only designed for killing but highly coveted by people who should not have it. Relevant factors include the applicant's living circumstances, mental and physical health, restraining orders or other encounters with the law, type of gun desired and for what purpose, safety training, storage arrangments and the public interest. Police make whatever inquiries they think necessary to inform their decision on whether or under what conditions the license should be granted. This can include checking with neighbourhood police, the family doctor and especially spouses and parents. There are many red flags that do not appear in an automated computer record of criminal convictions, such as substance abuse, mental instability and conflicts at home or otherwise. Another risk factor is whether granting the license might make guns accessible to another household member whose own circumstances would disqualify them from a license. Australia also requires a justifiable reason for the type of weapon that the applicant wants to own. If you lets say plan to hunt rabbits, your license doesn't allow you to a high powered rifle, and if you already have guns suitable for hunting rabbits it becomes increasingling difficult to justify owning more. This is a measure against the accumulation of private arsenals. One major difference between Australia and the US is that we do not accept anticipation of killing another person on the grounds of an unforeseen measure of self-defense as a reason for owning a gun. The gun-wielding-citizen-as-protector ideal is nonsense. Police officers go through hours of training to help them discern when the use of deadly force is justified, and as we know from many front-page tragedies involving police shootings, despite such rigorous training , even the best-trained, well meaning officers get it wrong. Yet we want to believe that an armed citizen with a few hours practice on the shooting range will be able to make split-second judgments well enough to ensure that the only people who end up dead are the bad guys, too many headlines have also proved that such a belief is sadly misplaced. Here is Australia to qualify for a hand-gun license, you must belong to and attend regularly a target shooting club. An important feature of the license is that it must be renewed every few years, and it can be suspended or cancelled if the bearer no longer meets that standard required, like domestic violence or mental conditions.
Australia didn't ban guns. Hunting and shooting are still thriving, many of my friends and family hunt, but by adopting laws that give priority to public safety we have saved statistically thousands of lives. And guess what we are not sitting in our homes afraid of home invasions with no way to defend ourselves, we are not sitting ducks to criminal thugs, we are a safer and wiser community.

Now on the politics, I do not doubt that propaganda is rife within the left wing but it is just as prevelent within the right, afterall politics is politics regardless of which side you look at. The gun-lobby is very powerful in the US, it's wealth allows it to lobby, to skilfully place campaign donations and propagandise. It spends 1.06 million a year in direct contributions to key congress members and 2.2 million in lobbying, enough to defeat most gun-control proposals before they can even reach the House or Senate floor. It spends 19 million in advertising and other outside spending, the 17th highest of all US lobby groups-to sway public opinion. One could argue that the root of this breakdown in democratic process is weak political funding laws. This weakness is founded in the free-speech First Amendment (the right above the right to bear arms). No limit can be placed on the spending of political action committees . These committees drag in vast sums to propagandise in favor of certain policies and are often little different from campaining for a given candidate who holds that policy position- usually a conservative. They can stop things getting done, resulting in political paralysis.
If you want to look at in the light of the shadow elite controlling the Government then any study into this clearly shows a control on both sides of the political agenda, left or right. Whilst people are arguing back and forth right-wing conservatives against the left wing, the elite are sitting back puppeting both sides for their gain.

What I found quite interesting is how conservative right-wing Christians use the bible and quote it exhaustingly to promote their ideals against abortion and homosexuality (I am not in agreeance on either) but when it comes to fire-arms they are often quoted as saying it is their God-given right, leaving out all scripture on violence, self-defense or otherwise when Jesus made it very clear on the question of whether violence is an acceptable response to violence on whether arming ourselves with fists and swords and guns is the way to protect ourselves against fists and swords and guns. Nonviolence-turning the other cheek, keeping your sword in its scabbard even under threat, loving your enemy- is a a centerpiece of Jesus's Gospel. His words are crystal clear.
Matthew 26:
While Jesus was speaking, Judas, one of the the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: 'The one I kiss is the man; arrest him'. Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, 'Greetings, rabbi'' and kissed him.
Jesus replied, 'Do what you came for, friend''.
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
''Put your word back in its place,'' Jesus said to him, ''for all who draw the sword will die by the sword''

If it is thought that the best possible action to protect our society from guns is to arm ourselves with guns, children and men and women will die, again and again and again.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Great and thorough post Mel, I was a shooter when I was younger and I thought the gun laws ere a good idea when introduced, the less idiots getting guns the better, some people I know got knocked back on their licence and I am glad they did because frankly they were not the type of person who should be wielding a weapon capable of causing death from a distance.

[SeekingSanctuary]

What I found quite interesting is how conservative right-wing Christians use the bible and quote it exhaustingly to promote their ideals against abortion and homosexuality (I am not in agreeance on either) but when it comes to fire-arms they are often quoted as saying it is their God-given right, leaving out all scripture on violence, self-defense or otherwise when Jesus made it very clear on the question of whether violence is an acceptable response to violence on whether arming ourselves with fists and swords and guns is the way to protect ourselves against fists and swords and guns. Nonviolence-turning the other cheek, keeping your sword in its scabbard even under threat, loving your enemy- is a a centerpiece of Jesus's Gospel. His words are crystal clear.

Luke 22:36-38
Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”

So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”

And He said to them, “It is enough.”

Self-defense is Biblical, Melanie. Not only that but look at the facts, Russia has more gun laws than the US, yet more gun crime, Switzerland has far less strict gun laws, yet less gun crime. Meanwhile, criminals statistically (and by own admission) are less likely to mug a person or rob a place if they think the other people are armed.

The guns aren't the problem.

(On a level I do agree with you, I don't own a gun, don't want one. However I can't pretend it isn't morally right to own one. I don't want to put words in God's mouth, but I think Pacificism is closer to His message than straight Pacifism).

[Danieltwotwenty]

So if Jesus wanted us to defend ourselves with violence, how did we end up with so many martyrs.

I think it is dangerous to proof text the Bible to suit your ideology, pulling one passage out to back your claim is just ridicules, if we look at the bigger picture of what Jesus was saying I think he would want us to use non-violence.

Might as well stone a few adulterers because if we proof text the Bible that's what it says to do.

[Silvertusk]

Here is a report to counter the report:

Counter report still in progrss

I am not sure those oversea's understand how diabolically political it is here in the USA over the big push by Obama to ban Guns and the use of crisis to gain absolute tyrannical political power over all. Mr Obama mentioned recently that he will will go unilaterally to ban guns. After this, a report comes out as well as a big push that says - guns are bad you need us to protect you from evil gun owners. Well it takes a human being to pull the trigger of a gun and guess what? It is people with violent mental health issues that are responsible for school shootings coupled with that the decline over the value of life pushed by the left in this country (abortion - anything goes life style, devaluing of objective morality). We should be investing in major Mental Health issues and actually locking the violent insane up in institutions not letting them run loose in America due to leftist feel good politics for the violent mentally ill rights to walk freely among us. A recipe for disaster or was it contrived long?

The bigger and real issue is why would big uncontrolled, unchecked, unilateral Govt want to deny the 2nd Amendment rights guaranteed to law abiding US Citizens?

The 2nd amendment was the last resort for redress against the tyranny of of such unilateral Govt as well as the ability to protect ourselves from criminal thugs and this current abusive Govt seeks to use crisis either created, or contrived to fit their agenda to ensure dictatorship. Recall that the left in this country hate America and seeks it demise at all cost and seeks to fundamentally transform a once great nation into a third world tin pot dictatorship where a ruling elite has absolute unchecked power over its citizens. The stakes are high. The release of the violently mentally ill from the policies of deinstitutionalization in the USA has predicable results.

Fact is, law abiding good citizens do not use guns to kill folks for sport, revenge, or imaginary fiends. They wish to be left alone, raise their kids, and have the abusive unilateral Govt types to stop its war against farmers in order to save the Prebel's Jumping Mouse, or stop the EPA over its abuse of water rights for farmers and ranchers ... and a host of over odd laws...

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/spe ... ls/preble/

http://personalliberty.com/thats-enough ... en-parody/

Our country has crossed over to the politically insane and if they have their way, they'll have all the guns and then what?


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P.S. f\For you all overseas, the USA is not how its left leaning media portrays it for pure political gain/propaganda value. Therefore, please do not be fooled. In England their was a mass schooling shooting a few years back and another mass shooting at a camp in Norway. These are not reflective of the mentally of those countries and neither should it be reflective of what it is like in the USA everywhere, everyday, and in every way. Don't be fooled...

As far as I am concerned the 2nd Amendment is the biggest joke I have ever heard. It is just macho rubbish, men with big egos looking for a ***** substitute.

"Guns don't kill people"????? What utter tosh. Course they do. Trying to hide behind mental health issues is the cowardly as far as I can see. Like a spoilt child they do not want to let go of their precious dangerous toys....grow up!!!!

Phew - must be in a bad mood this morning.......

[neo-x]

What I found quite interesting is how conservative right-wing Christians use the bible and quote it exhaustingly to promote their ideals against abortion and homosexuality (I am not in agreeance on either) but when it comes to fire-arms they are often quoted as saying it is their God-given right, leaving out all scripture on violence, self-defense or otherwise when Jesus made it very clear on the question of whether violence is an acceptable response to violence on whether arming ourselves with fists and swords and guns is the way to protect ourselves against fists and swords and guns. Nonviolence-turning the other cheek, keeping your sword in its scabbard even under threat, loving your enemy- is a a centerpiece of Jesus's Gospel. His words are crystal clear.

Luke 22:36-38
Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”

So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”

And He said to them, “It is enough.”

Self-defense is Biblical, Melanie. Not only that but look at the facts, Russia has more gun laws than the US, yet more gun crime, Switzerland has far less strict gun laws, yet less gun crime. Meanwhile, criminals statistically (and by own admission) are less likely to mug a person or rob a place if they think the other people are armed.

The guns aren't the problem.

(On a level I do agree with you, I don't own a gun, don't want one. However I can't pretend it isn't morally right to own one. I don't want to put words in God's mouth, but I think Pacificism is closer to His message than straight Pacifism).

I know of zero people who have used guns on a self defense level. Almost every person I know who owns a gun, has either been shot, his family members shot, feuds going on over the years. I can't find it right now but someone once in a discussion gave me links which showed that in 90 percent of the crimes happening in uk, a person carrying a firearm is more likely to get shot than an unarmed person.

You want the shootings to stop, make buying guns so difficult and out of reach that its a real pain. Your military is so powerful, its decimating countries around the world. What on earth you need a gun to protect yourself from? Russia isn't gonna invade and last time I checked, the twin towers happened regardless of all the guns present in america, so did the Boston bombings.

what exactly do people want to store guns for?

[B. W.]

To those of you in other countries who do not understand why the USA has a 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms and are into name calling /ridicule anyone who supports the right to bear arms you may not like what I am about to write.

First off, the democratic socialist style governments overseas only had the chance to last as long as is has is due to the fact that the US Military oversaw the defense of the west during the cold war years. We supplied the means to deter over Soviet aggression; therefore, many of your governments could do all those wonderful social programs for you without the need for a strong military budget. Also, you all appear to me to trust your government’s benevolence implicitly. Maybe this is due in part to your national history being of subjects to monarchies which led to this mindset, I don't know. However, it is clear that you trust your government to do the right thing. As CS Lewis wrote in the Screwtape Letters in England a man was once taxed for cutting his his own tree down in his own yard along with a tax on the use of the ax. He used sarcasm in this example to show at what lengths people trust progressive style governments like a frog being slowly boiled in water. I am sure you all have some very whacky laws and unnecessary regulations you all do not like but as as Screwtape alluded too - they put up with this sort of thing.

America at one time from 1945 to 1989 was once thought of, and rightly so, as the bastion against Tyranny of Soviet aggression and world domination. WE spent billions of dollars to ensure nations like yours could follow the progressive socialist utopias unhindered as you all did not have to amass mass capital to defend you counties. The USA did this for you. In doing so, the enemies of this bastion sought hard how to rid the world of the USA and began a long slow series of internal means to ensure our destruction. They have succeeded.

Much of this has taken place and America is basically no more. We have lost. There is no hope, no future, nothing left in America except balkanization and the USA dying for the sins of the world against its stand against tyranny. WE are a dead country. You all can no longer count on us to come to your aid if you are attacked. Islam in many of your countries is an overwhelming force. There is no one now who can stand with you. America has been defeated from within.

You may trust your government, but we don’t in the USA because we who once knew Americas greatness, do not. Our current government is not – let me repeat, NOT Benevolent like yours. Ours is corrupt. One party seeks absolute control over every aspect of its living citizens with tyrannical god like control. If you disagree with it, you are targeted by the IRS, ridiculed, shouted down into silence. Maybe you all are used to this tyranny, but I don't think so, we are not pleased with it either.

The founding Fathers of this Country rebelled against the divine right of Kings and central planning that – that brought about and set up a system of divided government, with checks and balances, as well as a Bill of Rights for its Citizens. In that Bill was the 2nd amendment which was for protection against marauders as well as a marauding tyranny of Govt who betrays its social contract – the US Constitution - with its citizens. If this is done away, who will protect us from the bullies in Govt?

You all saw and some of you felt the heel of Communism on your necks. You had your Governments lead you into WW1 and faced invading host of Hitler’s armies two decades later. Your Governments are not like ours. However, like your history, and you having enemies that sought your destruction, so do we. Now they are in power and in our Govt. Our country is dead, and none will come to our aid. Central planning has won. The anti-Christian hate here in America is growing. The Govt supports more single mothers wed to Govt and supports racism of revenge against the non-existing white privilege. That so called privilege may have been true in the 1960’s and in England in the 19 and 20 centuries with its spread of colonialism and white man’s burden, but in the USA that fizzled out in the 1960’s and 1970’s. I saw it and lived during that era during the civil rights era when it thankfully died. Racism was dying out and almost gone by 2009. Then came Obama and the poverty pimps and vamped it up again, this time, people of color racism based solely upon revenge against something that no loner existed.

Well our country is dead, not because of school shootings but due to liberal policies that seek to destroy the social order by letting out the violently crazy people from mental institutions. The assault on morality in America and the glorification of perversity has taken its toll. In your countries, you all address the issue if the criminally insane in a sane rational manner and actually make laws that are enforced. In the USA, that is not so as the crisis is viewed as needed to be perpetuated to bash and bludgeoned to death what was once good in America. That is the differences between our countries: politics.

So I guess you all can rejoice, America is dead and now tyrants of the world unite – the world is all yours, Europe is yours, America is yours, Communism, Islam, rejoice you won!

However, violent crazy people still do kill with knives, sticks, clubs, axes, fertilizer, explosives, so when will your country outlaw knives, scissors and even bare hands? Is that possible? After all, these kill too. No, again guns do not kill, nor knives or scissors, but people do. So it would be best to outlaw people and confine us all to our homes for life with no social interaction at all as that is the only sensible solution.

You see, in America, we don’t rust our govt like you all trust yours. Ours has turned on its citizens and any who dare question it are punished by ostracization or the IRS. So rejoice, America is dead. Be happy about that. Go ahead and believe the propaganda of our main stream media in its insane endeavor bring America down.

I will like to pop your bubble though before I go. There are no gun shots outside my door, no mass killings occurring as I walk down the street. The media would have you believe America is a mass of shootings, rapes, pillaging, crime and that it is not safe shop at the grocery store. In fact, the mass majority of America is still a very nice place with very nice folks who will help you change your flat tire if needed. However, you can’t tell this by the news media who only focus is on the bad with an political agenda for this action attached.

Like your big cities, there are bad places where folks need to avoid due to the depravity of human nature which is common to the human race, we have ours. The more the Democratic Party holds hostage peoples of color in poverty just to use them to canvass votes by telling lies about the evil Republicans and Independents wanting take away the goodies people of color are enslaved too – crime runs rampant in those parts. There are more shootings in Chicago ILL than anywhere else and all in the democrat party voting stronghold. Odd isn't it?

Elsewhere, outside these liberal meca’s of civil society, the crime rate is so very low that it is quite safe – just as it is your country. Please don’t be fooled by the media….
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[SeekingSanctuary]

So if Jesus wanted us to defend ourselves with violence, how did we end up with so many martyrs.

I think it is dangerous to proof text the Bible to suit your ideology, pulling one passage out to back your claim is just ridicules, if we look at the bigger picture of what Jesus was saying I think he would want us to use non-violence.

Might as well stone a few adulterers because if we proof text the Bible that's what it says to do.

It isn't prooftexting, it is in context. They were going into a dangerous situation, they needed to be able to defend themselves against people. If I am prooftexting, please explain why Christ would instruct them to do so?

As to the question of martyrs, most were killed by a governing authority. There are differences between a governing authority and that of a random dude breaking into your house.