Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:29 pm**

Hi,

when talking about God with friends, I realized that many only have a very vague idea of what Christians actually believe. It may be different in the US, but over here in Europe (Germany) our society is very secular, so people are rarely taught what basic Christianity actually looks like. I tried to cook everything down to as few points as possible, maybe someone can give me a hint if they agree or think I have missed something important.

1 God is a necessary being (it is impossible for him to not exist).
2 God is immaterial (not composed of matter).
3 God is a personal agent, not a principle.

4 God is omnipotent (can do anything that's logically possible).
5 God is omnibenevolent (loves all, including those acting against his will).
6 God is omniscient (knows all true propositions).

7 God is the source of all existence and upholds existence of all things that are.
8 God is a triune person (composed of Father, Son (Jesus) & Holy Spirit).

9 Moral values and duties derive from God's nature.
10 The purpose of human existence is to be in relationship with God.
11 Humanity strays from proper relationship with God.

12 Jesus was crucified in order to reconcile humanity with God.
13 Jesus was bodily resurrected.

14 There is no way to earn salvation by doing good deeds.
15 The only way to reconcile oneself with God is by accepting Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (his punishment in our stead).

16 Jesus will return to hold judgement over all people (dead and alive).
17 The dead will be bodily resurrected.
18 Those who accept Christ will live in the company of God.

There are a few things in there that not every Christian might agree about - I am trying to put down a mainstream picture. If I would put together a pamphlet, there'd probably be more emphasis on what role Jesus plays. Also keep in mind this is my first rough outline. I appreciate your input.

thanks & cheers,
Sven

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:09 pm**

That's a pretty good list you have there, Sven. I would tweak 8 and 10. Regarding 8, we shouldn't use the word "composed" when talking about the Trinity, as if God is 1/3 Father, 1/3 Son, and 1/3 Holy Spirit. In fact, it's probably not best to say that He is a triune person. Rather, we should say that "God is a Trinity of Persons (that is, God is One God in Three Coequal, Coeternal Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).

Regarding 10, it is true as stated, but your language could be a bit more precise without sacrificing the general nature of what you seem to be trying to do. You could say something like, "True human happiness is found in God alone." (Cf this and this, esp. art. 8).

Other than that, I can see two thinkg you might want to say something about. First, the church--something like, "Those who have placed their faith in Jesus are members of (or are baptized into) the body of Christ, called the Church." And second, it would make sense to me to say something about Scripture, maybe, "The Bible is God's written revelation to humanity regarding His nature and purpose for the world." Feel free to tweak either of those to your liking (assuming you agree with me that those are of particular importance).

In general, though, I think you have a pretty mainstream statement on Christianity here. C. S. Lewis would be proud.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:47 pm**

Basic Christian Beliefs
What do Christians believe? Answering that question is no simple matter. Christianity as a religion encompasses a wide range of denominations and faith groups, and each subscribes to its own set of doctrinal positions.

The following are the basic Christian beliefs central to almost all Christian faiths. They are presented here as the core doctrines of Christianity. A small number of faith groups who consider themselves to be within the framework of Christianity, do not accept some of these beliefs. It should also be understood that slight variances, exceptions, and additions to these doctrines can exist within certain faith groups that fall under the broad umbrella of Christianity.

There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6; Galatians 4:8-9).

God is three in one or a Trinity (Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; John 14:16-17; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Acts 2:32-33, John 10:30,17:11, 21; 1 Peter 1:2).

God is omniscient or "knows all things" (Acts 15:18; 1 John 3:20).

God is omnipotent or "all powerful" (Psalm 115:3; Revelation 19:6).

God is omnipresent or "present everywhere" (Jeremiah 23:23, 24; Psalm 139).

God is sovereign (Zechariah 9:14; 1 Timothy 6:15-16).

God is holy (1 Peter 1:15).

God is just or "righteous" (Psalm 19:9, 116:5, 145:17; Jeremiah 12:1).

God is love (1 John 4:8).

God is true (Romans 3:4; John 14:6).

God is spirit (John 4:24).

God is the creator of everything that exists (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 44:24).

God is infinite and eternal. He has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Genesis 21:33; Acts 17:24).

God is immutable. He does not change (James 1:17; Malachi 3:6; Isaiah 46:9-10).

The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 2:11-12; 2 Corinthians 13:14).

Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1, 14, 10:30-33, 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 1:8).

Jesus became a man (Philippians 2:1-11).

Jesus is fully God and fully man (Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Jesus was sinless (1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15).

Jesus is the only way to God the Father (John 14:6; Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22).

Man was created by God in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27).

All people have sinned (Romans 3:23, 5:12).

Death came into the world through Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-15).

Sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2).

Jesus died for the sins of each and every person in the world (1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 5:14; 1 Peter 2:24).

Jesus' death was a substitutionary sacrifice. He died and paid the price for our sins, so that we might live. (1 Peter 2:24; Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45).

Jesus resurrected from the dead in physical form (John 2:19-21).

Salvation is a free gift of God (Romans 4:5, 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 John 1:8-10).

The Bible is the "inspired" or "God-breathed," Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21).

Those who reject Jesus Christ will go to hell forever after they die (Revelation 20:11-15, 21:8).

Those who accept Jesus Christ will live for eternity with him after they die (John 11:25, 26; 2 Corinthians 5:6).

Hell is a place of punishment (Matthew 25:41, 46; Revelation 19:20).

Hell is eternal (Matthew 25:46).

There will be a rapture of the church (Matthew 24:30-36, 40-41; John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).

Jesus will return to the earth (Acts 1:11).

Christians will be raised from the dead when Jesus returns (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).

There will be a final judgment (Hebrews 9:27; 2 Peter 3:7).

Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

God will create a new heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).

http://christianity.about.com/od/christ ... trines.htm

Of all these basic Christian beliefs, the only one that I have a problem with is the subject of an eternal "hell" as a place of eternal "torment."
I do understand and can accomodate -for lack of a better term- damnation as a eternal punishment, meaning that it will be forever, but not necessarily meaning that one would be eternally burned and tortured per say.

..

I also need some help in understanding the part that God being Spirit, can also be "physical carnal / human being" - Jesus.
Not that I don't believe it -which I do- but how can I explain it to someone else if I am to be a witness to someone?

Mind you, like I mentioned before when I introduced myself, I'm not at all well versed in scriputure.

Thank you.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:23 pm**

Lonewolf wrote:I also need some help in understanding the part that God being Spirit, can also be "physical carnal / human being" - Jesus.
Not that I don't believe it -which I do- but how can I explain it to someone else if I am to be a witness to someone?

Mind you, like I mentioned before when I introduced myself, I'm not at all well versed in scriputure.

Thank you.

The short answer is that Jesus has two natures. He has a human nature and He has a divine nature. Those two natures are not comingled or "mixed up." If that were the case, then His nature would be neither human nor divine. He would be a human-god hybrid thing. So Jesus has a physical body in virtue of His human nature. He got sleepy, hungry, felt pain, got cold, got hot, etc., in virtue of His human nature. In short, the incarnation is just a fancy word to say that God took on a human nature in addition to His own. Jesus, however, was omniscient, perfect, impeccable, knew God's will perfectly, etc., all in virtue of His divine nature.

Once again, we say that the one person had two natures. That's different from me and you. We have one nature (a human one). Angels have one nature (an angelic one). God, considered only as God, has one nature (a divine one). The second Person of the Trinity (the Son) in the incarnation took on that second nature. Of course, it is impossible to take on a human nature without also taking on a human body, since to have a body is human nature!

As far as biblical support, I would encourage you to study John 1, esp. compare John 1:1-4 and John 1:14-15.

Hope this helps!

Posted: **Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:56 am**

Lonewolf wrote:
Basic Christian Beliefs
What do Christians believe? Answering that question is no simple matter. Christianity as a religion encompasses a wide range of denominations and faith groups, and each subscribes to its own set of doctrinal positions.

The following are the basic Christian beliefs central to almost all Christian faiths. They are presented here as the core doctrines of Christianity. A small number of faith groups who consider themselves to be within the framework of Christianity, do not accept some of these beliefs. It should also be understood that slight variances, exceptions, and additions to these doctrines can exist within certain faith groups that fall under the broad umbrella of Christianity.

There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6; Galatians 4:8-9).

God is three in one or a Trinity (Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; John 14:16-17; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Acts 2:32-33, John 10:30,17:11, 21; 1 Peter 1:2).

God is omniscient or "knows all things" (Acts 15:18; 1 John 3:20).

God is omnipotent or "all powerful" (Psalm 115:3; Revelation 19:6).

God is omnipresent or "present everywhere" (Jeremiah 23:23, 24; Psalm 139).

God is sovereign (Zechariah 9:14; 1 Timothy 6:15-16).

God is holy (1 Peter 1:15).

God is just or "righteous" (Psalm 19:9, 116:5, 145:17; Jeremiah 12:1).

God is love (1 John 4:8).

God is true (Romans 3:4; John 14:6).

God is spirit (John 4:24).

God is the creator of everything that exists (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 44:24).

God is infinite and eternal. He has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Genesis 21:33; Acts 17:24).

God is immutable. He does not change (James 1:17; Malachi 3:6; Isaiah 46:9-10).

The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 2:11-12; 2 Corinthians 13:14).

Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1, 14, 10:30-33, 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 1:8).

Jesus became a man (Philippians 2:1-11).

Jesus is fully God and fully man (Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Jesus was sinless (1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15).

Jesus is the only way to God the Father (John 14:6; Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22).

Man was created by God in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27).

All people have sinned (Romans 3:23, 5:12).

Death came into the world through Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-15).

Sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2).

Jesus died for the sins of each and every person in the world (1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 5:14; 1 Peter 2:24).

Jesus' death was a substitutionary sacrifice. He died and paid the price for our sins, so that we might live. (1 Peter 2:24; Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45).

Jesus resurrected from the dead in physical form (John 2:19-21).

Salvation is a free gift of God (Romans 4:5, 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 John 1:8-10).

The Bible is the "inspired" or "God-breathed," Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21).

Those who reject Jesus Christ will go to hell forever after they die (Revelation 20:11-15, 21:8).

Those who accept Jesus Christ will live for eternity with him after they die (John 11:25, 26; 2 Corinthians 5:6).

Hell is a place of punishment (Matthew 25:41, 46; Revelation 19:20).

Hell is eternal (Matthew 25:46).

There will be a rapture of the church (Matthew 24:30-36, 40-41; John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).

Jesus will return to the earth (Acts 1:11).

Christians will be raised from the dead when Jesus returns (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).

There will be a final judgment (Hebrews 9:27; 2 Peter 3:7).

Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

God will create a new heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).

http://christianity.about.com/od/christ ... trines.htm
Of all these basic Christian beliefs, the only one that I have a problem with is the subject of an eternal "hell" as a place of eternal "torment."
I do understand and can accomodate -for lack of a better term- damnation as a eternal punishment, meaning that it will be forever, but not necessarily meaning that one would be eternally burned and tortured per say.

..

I also need some help in understanding the part that God being Spirit, can also be "physical carnal / human being" - Jesus.
Not that I don't believe it -which I do- but how can I explain it to someone else if I am to be a witness to someone?

Mind you, like I mentioned before when I introduced myself, I'm not at all well versed in scriputure.

Thank you.

I would be cautious on "proof texting" where what is being proof texted is not EXPLICITLY stated, ie: the Trinity ( it is implied of course).
As for hell and torment:
Hell is to be away from the presence of God, which is to be away from the source of all that is good, all that is love, how can it NOT be a place of torment?
As for the incarnation, Jac is spot one but I would only add that you should never forget that for God ALL is possible so Jesus, who has the same nature as The Father (He is God), can most certainly be "all"God and "all" Human.

Posted: **Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:33 am**

@Chris: thanks for the input, that is the kind of feedback I am looking for. Especially your point about the Trinity gives me sth to chew on for a while, I will have to look into that a bit more. I actually had one point about the Bible in there, but cut it for the list for the reason of not being sure how much mainstream the idea of an "inerrant" Bible is (and what that even means) - your version is much better, though I will probably tweak it a bit as suggested.

btw: not sure if this is of interest to anyone, Bill Craig has a whole podcast series on the Trinity here: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/s5

@Lonewolf: thanks for the list, it's a good list to compare against mine. re the topic of hell, you may want to check out http://rethinkinghell.com/ these guys are defending Annihilationism, not saying that is the view you should adopt (though I personally lean in that direction), but there is also a lot of good info on why people stick to the traditional doctrine of hell.

cheers,
Sven

Posted: **Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:24 am**

I might be a little careful with Craig on the Trinity. Let me offer full disclosure here and say that he and I come from different schools of thought on this. I am a classical theist, meaning that I hold to what the Church has traditionally taught on the nature of God; Craig followers a newer philosophical approach that is looking to reformulate some traditional doctrines (e.g., the Trinity) in light of some of what he sees to be some serious problems with classical theism. As such, Craig actually probably wouldn't have a problem saying that God is "composed" of three Persons, and if he did have a problem with that langauge, I know for sure it would not be for the same reasons that I do (and that classical theists do generally).

My master's thesis was actually on this subject. If you are interested in pursuing this line of thought further, I'd recommend you either start there (you can find it on my blog; it's titled "Reconsidering Divine Simplicity") or search "Divine Simplicity" on this board. You'll find several threads either dedicated to or touching on that subject.

Just for clarity, I'm not at all saying Craig is anything other than a sincere, extremely brilliant Christian apologist whom God is using to bring many to faith. He and I have some philosophical differences, but please don't read my saying as much as an attempt to impugn him and certainly not his faith in any form whatsoever.

Posted: **Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:05 am**

Just a quick note on the Trinity:
It is and always has been and always will be THE "trickiest" part of Christianity IF a person does NOT find THEIR OWN understanding of it and by that I mean it has to make sense to THEM before they can try to express it to others.

Posted: **Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:42 am**

@Chris: Thanks for the clarification, I actually have worked through Craig's material — that's probably why I used the "composed of" term, it was somewhere in my notes. I will have a look at your stuff, if time allows. Thanks again!

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:09 am**

You have a very good list. All Christians do not believe the same. Below are a few things I have marked that should be proven out via scripture. Making out a list, and handing it to people has not proven as effective as personal contact. Pointing to one subject rather than eighteen if more effective. Take a lesson for your used care salesmen…”showing many leaves a customer confused. One question is better than ten.
Example: “Why do you think there is so much crime in the world?” A simple question gets the other person talking…this leave the door open to more questions. Always have a Bible subject in mind when doing this. People are overwhelmed with bad news daily. Give them some good news. “Did you know God promises to rid the earth of all crime?” Follow their reply with an answer from the Bible…show them the scripture, and read it to them. If they show interest, get personal with them…make a friend. Put the Bible aside, and asked personal questions…”Have you lived here in XXXX long? Etc.
Taking a class in how to sell would not hurt.

1 God is a necessary being (it is impossible for him to not exist).
2 God is immaterial (not composed of matter).
3 God is a personal agent, not a principle.

4 God is omnipotent (can do anything that's logically possible).
5 God is omnibenevolent (loves all, including those acting against his will).
6 God is omniscient (knows all true propositions).

7 God is the source of all existence and upholds existence of all things that are.
8 God is a triune person (composed of Father, Son (Jesus) & Holy Spirit).

9 Moral values and duties derive from God's nature.
10 The purpose of human existence is to be in relationship with God.
11 Humanity strays from proper relationship with God.

12 Jesus was crucified in order to reconcile humanity with God.
13 Jesus was bodily resurrected.

14 There is no way to earn salvation by doing good deeds.
15 The only way to reconcile oneself with God is by accepting Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (his punishment in our stead).

16 Jesus will return to hold judgement over all people (dead and alive).
17 The dead will be bodily resurrected.
18 Those who accept Christ will live in the company of God.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:15 pm**

Domenic wrote:..Take a lesson for your used care salesmen…”showing many leaves a customer confused. One question is better than ten.
Example: “Why do you think there is so much crime in the world?” A simple question gets the other person talking…this leave the door open to more questions. Always have a Bible subject in mind when doing this. People are overwhelmed with bad news daily. Give them some good news. “Did you know God promises to rid the earth of all crime?” Follow their reply with an answer from the Bible…show them the scripture, and read it to them. If they show interest, get personal with them…make a friend. Put the Bible aside, and asked personal questions…”Have you lived here in XXXX long? Etc.
Taking a class in how to sell would not hurt.

JW's use the same sales pitch.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:28 pm**

Lonewolf wrote:
Domenic wrote:..Take a lesson for your used care salesmen…”showing many leaves a customer confused. One question is better than ten.
Example: “Why do you think there is so much crime in the world?” A simple question gets the other person talking…this leave the door open to more questions. Always have a Bible subject in mind when doing this. People are overwhelmed with bad news daily. Give them some good news. “Did you know God promises to rid the earth of all crime?” Follow their reply with an answer from the Bible…show them the scripture, and read it to them. If they show interest, get personal with them…make a friend. Put the Bible aside, and asked personal questions…”Have you lived here in XXXX long? Etc.
Taking a class in how to sell would not hurt.
JW's use the same sales pitch.

Good for them.

Evidence for God from Science

What Christians Believe

What Christians Believe

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