Evidence for God from Science

Am reading the Bible and came across 2 Peter 2:17-22
17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the [g]black darkness has been reserved. 18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 [h]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

I wonder how it fits with OSAS.
Do I suppose correctly that the first state is state before they became believers? And that last state is state when they are overcome by the world again? And that before one believes in Jesus his destiny is eternal damnation?

And now, text says, last state is worse than the first state. How do you understand that?

Peter was speaking of false teachers and false prophets but I think his words are not just specifically meant for pastors, preachers and churches teaching false doctrine but for every christian who sways from truth.
Springs without water in my opinion is referring to how the truth of Christ's word is "a spring of water welling up to eternal life" but those that hear the gospel and may teach it but do not hold to the truth of the gospel have not inherited the Kingdom of Heaven and 'mists driven by a storm' are clouds that hold the promise of rain but produce nothing. Like a farmer see's the oncoming weather and clouds and hopes for rain for life sustaining water to sustain his crops and produce a harvest, believers listen in earnest to preachers to sustain and grow their faith but when they are misleading there is no harvest.
Verses 18-20 Is speaking of preaching a version of Christianity that appeals to worldly desires, trying to inter grain the world with the word. You can have it all. You can ungodly desires, riches, indulgences, ect and have the spirit of Christ. We see these pastors all over our TV, they are bold and arrogant, know scripture inside and out, they speak impressively and capture many. They preach of a salvation that they have never known.
20-22 they have been given the truth of the our Saviour, they know the bible, but like the seeds that fell on rocky places and among thorns nothing good grows. They would have been better off never have knowing the sacrifice and salvation of Jesus because when someone knows better they should do better. We hold accountable those that are meant to know better with a stricter, harsher mindset. When a policemen commits a crime there is a greater outrage, when a teacher abuses a child it is a greater violation, when a 'Christian' sends others down a path of damnation not salvation they are more accountable not only for their own misgivings but every person that they lead astray. When we profess to be Christian we are putting on the uniform of 'Christ' we are accountable, we are meant to be representing our Saviour.
The gift of knowledge and wisdom pertaining to Jesus' message of salvation is of more importance than any other piece of wisdom that we could ever pass on, it holds the truth to eternity. We cannot distort or pervert that message to suit our own desires. If we give someone the wrong directions to our house they will get lost then eventually find the way, if we give a person the wrong ingredients for a recipe they will probably cook a disaster then order a pizza but if we give someone the wrong message of Christ and salvation then their eternity and soul is at stake.
22 I have seen my dog do this, it's gross, and at the time I'm like WHY? Yuck, stop!! But she's a dog, it's her nature, she knows no better, like a pig that wallows in mud, that's just what they do. It's no different to these false preachers and false 'Christians' they don't know any better or any different for they have never really known Christ. They live for the world because they are of this world, those that are for the spirit reject the world. You cannot have two masters, it is one or the other.
As far as 'once saved always saved' I'm not too sure about that.
"Many will say to me on that day,
Lord, lord did we not prophesy in your name,
And in your name cast out demons,
And in your name preform many miracles?,
"And then I will declare to them,
'I never knew you;
DEPART FROM ME,
YOU WHO PRACTICES LAWLESSNESS'.
We do not know who is saved, we can claim to know Christ, many do, but it matters not if we think we know Him but rather whether He knows us!

I would add to Melanie's post that what Peter is conveying is what John wrote of in 1 John 2:19, They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. NKJV

They went out from us, but they were not of us... why?

1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Recall the parable of the wheat and the tares. An enemy sows amongst the wheat his own tares... Such tares stain the body of Christ on earth by what they say and do. They are not of us, so it would therefore be important to examine ourselves to see if one is in the Faith or not from time to time.

That is what I think Peter is conveying as well too as both heard and understood what Jesus meant in the Wheat and Tares parable...
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And how do you read this part: "...after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..."

What is meant by escaping the defilements of the world? Could "tare" in some point of time escape the defilements of the world? How?

I appreciate your answers.

melanie wrote:As far as 'once saved always saved' I'm not too sure about that.
"Many will say to me on that day,
Lord, lord did we not prophesy in your name,
And in your name cast out demons,
And in your name preform many miracles?,
"And then I will declare to them,
'I never knew you;
DEPART FROM ME,
YOU WHO PRACTICES LAWLESSNESS'.
We do not know who is saved, we can claim to know Christ, many do, but it matters not if we think we know Him but rather whether He knows us!

prophesy, cast out demons, perform miracles in his name does not necessarily mean that they were "saved" to begin with.,
how many false teachers and wolves in sheep clothing are out there?
they act like they're Christian on the outside, but their inside is corrupt.,
and they may fool myriads of Christians, but they don't fool God!

now, if one is saved, when he or she comes before the Lord, they wont even have to try and fool God with such trickery of words.,
for they will have God in their hearts, and the Lord already knows them to have been faithful.

so, IMO, those who have to try and convince the Lord of what "works" they've done in his name, where not saved to begin with.

Lonewolf wrote:

melanie wrote:As far as 'once saved always saved' I'm not too sure about that.
"Many will say to me on that day,
Lord, lord did we not prophesy in your name,
And in your name cast out demons,
And in your name preform many miracles?,
"And then I will declare to them,
'I never knew you;
DEPART FROM ME,
YOU WHO PRACTICES LAWLESSNESS'.
We do not know who is saved, we can claim to know Christ, many do, but it matters not if we think we know Him but rather whether He knows us!

prophesy, cast out demons, perform miracles in his name does not necessarily mean that they were "saved" to begin with.,
how many false teachers and wolves in sheep clothing are out there?
they act like they're Christian on the outside, but their inside is corrupt.,
and they may fool myriads of Christians, but they don't fool God!

now, if one is saved, when he or she comes before the Lord, they wont even have to try and fool God with such trickery of words.,
for they will have God in their hearts, and the Lord already knows them to have been faithful.

so, IMO, those who have to try and convince the Lord of what "works" they've done in his name, where not saved to begin with.

Hey lonewolf
We haven't interacted on here yet, I'm sort of a newbie too, great to have you here
I agree with you, there are many who have never known Christ and were never really saved to begin with, there are many, too many wolves displaying themselves as sheep, but what they have that many others do not is a deep knowledge of God and the path to salvation, the cannot claim ignorance. They lure 'Christians' saved Christians into their false beliefs, they appeal to our itchy ears, it's easier to follow a form of Christianity when we are not really accountable. People flock to them because they are being told what they want to hear. Sacrifice, humility, selflessness, accountability are not buzz words, it doesn't sell their 'product' near as well as catchy phrases, effervescent speeches and 'do what you like, cause God loves you anyway' attitudes.
Yes of course He does, He loves us even though we fall so short of worthiness, but God is no idiot, He knows our intention. If you have a smart mouth (like me) and you see that small glimpse of embarrassment in another's eye that you have caused or hurt and you walk away thinking, ohh that's just me, it's my personality, God made me this way, and He loves me warts and all, I can't change, I'm not cruel, people are just over-sensitive (things I have told myself) without looking at ourselves, asking ourselves the question, 'am I bearing the fruits of the spirit?' God doesn't expect us to be perfect, but He wants us to try, godliness isn't achieved thru perfection as it's impossible, it's achieved in the aspiration, in the wanting, in the trying to be better versions of ourselves, in striving for Christ-like Christianity. Limiting ourselves to thoughts like 'we all sin, God sent us Jesus so that we could be washed clean so he doesn't expect me to be sinless so I'm not going to beat myself up about it', we are limiting Gods ability to work in us. Shame is not a bad word, it is a feeling Christians should experience. If you don't feel shame and regret for your misgivings and short comings then are you really asking for forgiveness when you pray or a complete absolution based solely on the fact that you profess Jesus as saviour? Asking for forgiveness means "Father, I will try harder, I will do better" then if we screw it up again, we ask again with sincerity, and every time we do, Our loving Father works in our spirit to bring us closer to Him, closer to worthiness and closer to the Kingdom of Heaven.
Claiming that you are saved, even coming to Jesus' initially with the best intention is not a free pass to salvation, I believe that it is possible to lose your salvation, you can't say 'but Jesus in 1985 I said the sinners prayer, I got baptised and I have gone to church' if you never grew, never held yourself accountable, never bore the fruits of the spirit, and your spirit was never renewed in any way. It is wanting the free pass to eternity without ever making any sacrifices, that is why the path to salvation is small and narrow because it's hard, it's hurts sometimes, in worldly terms it's lonely, it's sacrifice, it's embracing our shame and wearing it as a burden on our backs till the load grows smaller and smaller but it's worth it because when we meet our Creator and it's our judgment we don't have to make excuses all we have to say is "I tried, everyday I fell short but everyday I tried" and He will know our hearts.

1over137 wrote:And how do you read this part: "...after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..."

What is meant by escaping the defilements of the world? Could "tare" in some point of time escape the defilements of the world? How?

I appreciate your answers.

Well it goes back too:

1 John 2:19, They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. NKJV

In fact 2 Peter 2:17-22 has a context as it refers to false prophets and false teachers…who lead astray making folks followers, disciples, imitators of themselves. Just as 2 Peter 2:1-2 mentions: But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive (shameless conduct, absence of restraint, insatiable desire for pleasure, arrogance, insolent) ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. NKJV

Verse two states many will follow their ways…This picks up again in 2 Peter 2:20-22 and suggest that such folks who go after these false brethren are false themselves because 2 Peter 2:22 points this out by quoting Proverbs 26:11 – ...a dog returns to his own vomit – so a fool repeats his folly. NASB

The reason why it would have been best for such false brethren never to have heard the gospel is due to the more severe judgment they bring upon themselves. In fact Jesus mentions this principle in Matthew 11:20, 21: many mighty works of God were seen in the towns of Chorazin and Bethsaida but the folks refused to turn away from their lascivious ways. It is almost like they were saying – “we got the blessings, hurrah, so we don’t need the one giving the blessing to tell us how to live. Thank you very much.”

Therefore, a more severe form of judgment awaits them. Why, because they are taking advantage of God’s goodness, mercy, grace for their own wantonness. Now go back to verse 22 which quotes Proverbs 26:11 concerning that such folks are classed as proverbial fools who always return to their folly. Therefore, such folks are false brethren and not true Christians. Next, notice the FOR IF translated in the NASB of 2 Peter 2:20, For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. NASB

What does IF mean to you? It is implying that such were using the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ which involves escaping the defilements of the world system as the means to return to their old ways. In other words, they adhere to a form of - God loves me, so I can sin that his grace can more abound – lifestyle. That is utter foolishness and why Pater quoted Proverbs 26:11 because a fool repeats his folly. In fact keep reading the next chapter, chapter 3 and note the context of entire chapter.

Notice how 2 Peter 3:11 mentions what? Well the folks in chapter two would scoff at that as being error.

Now look at this verse: 2 Timothy 2:19 ESV, But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.

The idea of 2 Peter 2:22 is in part revealing a method that the Lord uses to test people – a fool will repeat his own folly while one who is known by the Lord will learn from his folly not to keep repeating it (1 John 1:9).

Please read 2 Peter 1:1-12 and may the Lord show you something from it as it pertains to what I am trying to convey.

So the folks in 2 Peter 2:21-22 went out from us, but they were not of us... as it is written in

1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

This helps explain Jesus’ own words in John 10:27-30 and John 8:31-36 concerning the Lord not losing those that that are truly his. Recall in John 8 he is speaking to the most religious of folks who tasted the goodness of Abraham, yet, distorted it, as being children of the devil and not of God. Likewise, Peter is doing something similar in the chapter under discussion.

Lastly, a disciple is one who learns to imitate his teacher/master. In fact in classical Greek, a disciple meant just that, one who learns to imitate the teacher. Now with this concept re-look at John 8:31-32, Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples (imitators) indeed. 32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. NKJV

Please note Romans 8:29, 1Co 15:49, 2 Co 3:18, Eph 4:24, Eph 5:1, Philippians 3:21, and 1 John 3:2… what do you see?

Those mentioned in 2 Peter 2:1-22 are not such disciples are they as they failed the testing of God...

2 Co 13:5, Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? NASB

Notice that Paul and the 'we' he spoke of those do not fail the test…

2 Co 13:6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. NASB

He could not say that if he knew there was a possibility for a true believer in Christ to lose God’s salvation freely given. If lost, then any promise, gift calling from God is revocable. So is Rom 11:29 true or not?

You see Psalms 11:4 and 2 Chronicles 16:9 as well as Proverbs 15:3; Jer 17:10, Jer 23:24; Heb 4:13 contain true unchanging principles. The enemy always sows his wild tares midst God’s people making such test necessary. As said earlier - Such tares stain the body of Christ on earth by what they say and do. They are not of us, so it would therefore be important to examine ourselves to see if one is in the Faith or not from time to time and live the 1 John 1:9 way by grace that teaches one to say no as explained in Titus 2:11 NIV, Titus 2:12 NIV (Titus 2:11-15 )

That is what I think Peter is conveying something from the Wheat and Tares parable... Matthew 13:25-30
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1over137 wrote:Am reading the Bible and came across 2 Peter 2:17-22
17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the [g]black darkness has been reserved. 18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 [h]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

I wonder how it fits with OSAS.
Do I suppose correctly that the first state is state before they became believers? And that last state is state when they are overcome by the world again? And that before one believes in Jesus his destiny is eternal damnation?

And now, text says, last state is worse than the first state. How do you understand that?

This also leads us the THE sin that destroys the soul, blasphemy of the HS.
See, people that never knew Christ and never understood and received the HS can't really blasphemy seriously the HS, their ignorance is their excuse to a certain degree.
BUT to KNOW the HS and to deny Him, that is an unforgivable sin.
The sin that will destroy the soul.

So to conclude: not all who once believed/knew Jesus Christ are really known by God. They failed God's test. They returned to their folly. They were not really disciples. Right?

1over137 wrote:So to conclude: not all who once believed/knew Jesus Christ are really known by God. They failed God's test. They returned to their folly. They were not really disciples. Right?

Hana,
I think the text is referring to false preachers who knew the gospel, but never accepted it, and never trusted Christ for salvation.

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:So to conclude: not all who once believed/knew Jesus Christ are really known by God. They failed God's test. They returned to their folly. They were not really disciples. Right?

Hana,
I think the text is referring to false preachers who knew the gospel, but never accepted it, and never trusted Christ for salvation.

Did I summarize bw's post wrongly?

1over137 wrote:

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:So to conclude: not all who once believed/knew Jesus Christ are really known by God. They failed God's test. They returned to their folly. They were not really disciples. Right?

Hana,
I think the text is referring to false preachers who knew the gospel, but never accepted it, and never trusted Christ for salvation.

Did I summarize bw's post wrongly?

Only in the point about those who once believed/trusted the gospel. I think the false teachers knew the gospel, but never actually believed/trusted in it.

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:So to conclude: not all who once believed/knew Jesus Christ are really known by God. They failed God's test. They returned to their folly. They were not really disciples. Right?

Hana,
I think the text is referring to false preachers who knew the gospel, but never accepted it, and never trusted Christ for salvation.

Did I summarize bw's post wrongly?

Only in the point about those who once believed/trusted the gospel. I think the false teachers knew the gospel, but never actually believed/trusted in it.

You are right Rick, the text is referring to false teachers that never really knew the truth of salvation to begin with but teacher/believer it is the same principal, it is not just preachers that fall into this category. Not everyone is like well yourself for example, who trusts The Lord, looks to scripture to learn and grow with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and this is evident by your fruit (so to speak). A women I know comes to mind, she says she is christian by yet she consults psychics, is heavily into new age philosophy and more importantly she is unkind and sometimes just really cruel, I pray for a turn around for her but I see no fruit or evidence of the HS.
I may see where your coming from, whether they are teachers or believers they never had the light of truth to begin with, the haven't fallen away, they never started the climb to fall in the first place. The difficulty is that on the outside they wear the same uniform as us which is why Timothy gives us this passage to stay vigilant and be wise to people making false claims.

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:So to conclude: not all who once believed/knew Jesus Christ are really known by God. They failed God's test. They returned to their folly. They were not really disciples. Right?

Hana,
I think the text is referring to false preachers who knew the gospel, but never accepted it, and never trusted Christ for salvation.

Did I summarize bw's post wrongly?

Only in the point about those who once believed/trusted the gospel. I think the false teachers knew the gospel, but never actually believed/trusted in it.

I agree with Rick on this., that's the way I understand the scripture in question., there is those who know the gospel and even scripture verse by verse per say, but they never accepted Christ in their hearts., so in their prior state of ignorance they went about in their daily routine full of sin, then after when they heard the gospel and learned, they then went about and continued in themselves, therefore their newly learned state is worse for them because once they were sinning in ignorance, but afterwards they sin in full knowledge of the message, thus it will be worse for them., that's my understanding.

Lonewolf wrote:

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:So to conclude: not all who once believed/knew Jesus Christ are really known by God. They failed God's test. They returned to their folly. They were not really disciples. Right?

Hana,
I think the text is referring to false preachers who knew the gospel, but never accepted it, and never trusted Christ for salvation.

Did I summarize bw's post wrongly?

Only in the point about those who once believed/trusted the gospel. I think the false teachers knew the gospel, but never actually believed/trusted in it.

I agree with Rick on this., that's the way I understand the scripture in question., there is those who know the gospel and even scripture verse by verse per say, but they never accepted Christ in their hearts., so in their prior state of ignorance they went about in their daily routine full of sin, then after when they heard the gospel and learned, they then went about and continued in themselves, therefore their newly learned state is worse for them because once they were sinning in ignorance, but afterwards they sin in full knowledge of the message, thus it will be worse for them., that's my understanding.

I think that's a pretty good understanding, Lonewolf.

And I just want to add that I think the text is specifically talking about those false teachers previously mentioned in the same chapter. I don't think there's any warrant to take the text as referring to anyone else.