Evidence for God from Science

I have not come across the term "legalism" in the Bible.

It's a term used by "believers" to describe other people who try to keep religious rules and deny grace?

Here's a basic definition of legalism:

dependence on moral law rather than on personal religious faith.

And this goes into a little more detail.

I've seen some legalists who have trusted Christ for salvation. But then try to live according to the law, and not by grace. So not all legalists believe that they are saved by works(adherence to the law). But their lives show that they don't continue in faith. Instead, they rely on the law, at the expense of trusting Christ.

RickD wrote:Here's a basic definition of legalism:

dependence on moral law rather than on personal religious faith.

And this goes into a little more detail.

I've seen some legalists who have trusted Christ for salvation. But then try to live according to the law, and not by grace. So not all legalists believe that they are saved by works(adherence to the law). But their lives show that they don't continue in faith. Instead, they rely on the law, at the expense of trusting Christ.

Thanks for that, I read the link as well. It mentions Matthew 23 as a condemnation of keeping man made laws, over and above the God given laws.

You said "their lives (the legalists) show that they don't continue in faith." Does Christ enable the believer to keep the law of God or is the law now non -existent?

You said "their lives (the legalists) show that they don't continue in faith." Does Christ enable the believer to keep the law of God or is the law now non -existent?

Just my opinion, but I believe that the indwelling Holy Spirit in a believer, leads the believer to love God, and his neighbor. Now, I think as long as the believer continues to abide in (trust) in Christ, and not strive to live by the law, then the believer allows the HS to work in him.

I believe also that we need to include that a person who believes the gospel, repents and be baptized, and then afterwards begins to act in that faith to the point where it then becomes legalistic by trying to observe God's law, that does not mean that that person is no longer in Christ or hasn't been saved., because that person is in the faith trying to act and fulfill God's commandments, however erroneous their line of thinking may have become, they're still trying to serve God, and I'm sure (positive) that the HS is still with them and in certain points of their life, He will show them, He will teach them what is and what is not, for we all have drunk of the same cup when we believed, and we all fall short if not for Christ's atonement., so even though you have legal"ism" everywhere to some degree in every group of believers, there is still the work of the HS in effect.

Lonewolf wrote:I believe also that we need to include that a person who believes the gospel, repents and be baptized, and then afterwards begins to act in that faith to the point where it then becomes legalistic by trying to observe God's law, that does not mean that that person is no longer in Christ or hasn't been saved., because that person is in the faith trying to act and fulfill God's commandments, however erroneous their line of thinking may have become, they're still trying to serve God, and I'm sure (positive) that the HS is still with them and in certain points of their life, He will show them, He will teach them what is and what is not, for we all have drunk of the same cup when we believed, and we all fall short if not for Christ's atonement., so even though you have legal"ism" everywhere to some degree in every group of believers, there is still the work of the HS in effect.

I agree. (Assuming you are talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is the baptism that saves. And if you're using the correct biblical meaning of repent.)

Starhunter wrote:

RickD wrote:Here's a basic definition of legalism:

dependence on moral law rather than on personal religious faith.

And this goes into a little more detail.

I've seen some legalists who have trusted Christ for salvation. But then try to live according to the law, and not by grace. So not all legalists believe that they are saved by works(adherence to the law). But their lives show that they don't continue in faith. Instead, they rely on the law, at the expense of trusting Christ.

Thanks for that, I read the link as well. It mentions Matthew 23 as a condemnation of keeping man made laws, over and above the God given laws.

You said "their lives (the legalists) show that they don't continue in faith." Does Christ enable the believer to keep the law of God or is the law now non -existent?

It's not that the law is non-existent. The Law simply is not the method of relationship through which we experience and have fellowship with God, today.

RickD wrote ...and not strive to live by the law, then the believer allows the HS to work in him.

What kind of law would that be? One of love or one of dead deeds?

Jlay wrote
It's not that the law is non-existent. The Law simply is not the method of relationship through which we experience and have fellowship with God, today.

Is that the laws of the Sanhedrin or the law of God as mentioned in Psalms 119?

It would have to be the phylacteries of the Jews, unless David is debunked?

Lonewolf wrote:...however erroneous their line of thinking may have become, they're still trying to serve God,...

So is it natural for sinners to think to earn favor with God, but which the Holy Spirit convicts not to bother with?

Starhunter wrote:So is it natural for sinners to think to earn favor with God, but which the Holy Spirit convicts not to bother with?

Yes. Thinking we deserve God's favor through our self-perceived ''good'' works is human. And very prideful. This is why I think many Christians fall into the trap of various legalisms (You-aren't-saved-if-you: eat pork/go-to-[or don't go to]-church-on-Sunday/drink alcohol/don't-adhere-to-YEC/don't-worship-at-this-denomination/don't-give-x%-of-your-earnings...ad nauseum.)

Our sin-nature is so accustomed to being bound that the freedom Christ offers us is...unbelievable? So we gladly go back to our cells and close the door ourselves.

FL

Starhunter wrote:I have not come across the term "legalism" in the Bible.

It's a term used by "believers" to describe other people who try to keep religious rules and deny grace?

Dictionary.com defines it as...

legalism  

le·gal·ism [lee-guh-liz-uhm]

noun

1.strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, especially to the letter rather than the spirit.

2.Theology

a.the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.

b.the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.

3.( initial capital letter ) (in Chinese philosophy) the principles and practices of a school of political theorists advocating strict legal control over all activities, a system of rewards and punishments uniform for all classes, and an absolute monarchy.

In the context in which you asked and continue to evoke - all these definitions fit various all the forms by which some Christians adhere to legalism.

Need to ask, do you know what Jesus really did upon the cross?
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Here's the thing., and I'm just going to speak from my own experience of Catholics around me, my family, my friends, my neighbors., they all have heard of the ten commandments, and to them that is God's commandments that need to be kept., they don't look at it under the same light that some look at it under the works versus grace argument., they understand that salvation comes to us from Christ Jesus, but a faithful Christian must keep God's commandments., not that by keeping them, that that in itself saves them., but that it is a part of being a Christian and doing what God wants us to do, or not doing what He doesn't want us to commit., it is a very basic thinking, if you ask me., they're not looking at it in legaslitic terms of do this and you will go or not go to heaven., they're not even understanding the commandments as under a Jewish Law versus Jesus Cross., they're looking at it as "from the same God" and one must try and keep the commandments., whether they do or don't on a regular basis, well, i think we all know the answer to that., it is a given how few actually try to keep most of the commandments., my point is, that in a certain type of faith, keeping the commandments is part of being a "good" Christian. It is a very simple faith that tries to give reverence to what it is believed to be commanded by God together with everything else that comes from God which helps a Christian live right.

Starhunter wrote:

RickD wrote ...and not strive to live by the law, then the believer allows the HS to work in him.

What kind of law would that be? One of love or one of dead deeds?

Obviously not the law of love. We as believers, are told to love God, love one another, and love our neighbor.

So some of us say that there is no law of God, others there is one, but we agree that whether there law be God's law or the traditions of men, that an obsession with trying to keep the law is a curse to the adherent, and that focusing on Christ alone is salvation.

For some expanded research and reading see article by Jac3510, "Sanctification and the Law in Galatians and Romans"
in link - some papers I've written - provided with any of his posts,