Evidence for God from Science

Why is suicide bad and dying as a martyr not?

stuartcr wrote:Why is suicide bad and dying as a martyr not?

Suicide doesn't get you 72 virgins.

In theory:
Suicide is a selfish egotistical act.
Dying a martyr is, or is suppose to be about, dying for what you believe to be right and someone else kills you.

But you wouldn't be dead if you were to agree, would you? Why is it ok to choose your own death over telling someone what they want to hear? Your life is still in your own hands, isn't it?

stuartcr wrote:But you wouldn't be dead if you were to agree, would you? Why is it ok to choose your own death over telling someone what they want to hear? Your life is still in your own hands, isn't it?

Agreement to what?

EX:
A man is tired of living and no longer wants the burden of wife and kids and so kills himself.
He has made the choice to take his own life.

A man has to choose between him dying or his wife and kids and so makes the choice to allow someone to kill him.
A martyrs sacrifice ultimate goal is to give/safe a life, a suicide takes life.

PaulSacramento wrote:In theory:
Suicide is a selfish egotistical act.
Dying a martyr is, or is suppose to be about, dying for what you believe to be right and someone else kills you.

That about suicide is really only theory.

1over137 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:In theory:
Suicide is a selfish egotistical act.
Dying a martyr is, or is suppose to be about, dying for what you believe to be right and someone else kills you.

That about suicide is really only theory.

Of course, that is why I said theory.
I am sure that some suicides are certainly not that.
BUT if one is making a distinction between suicide and martyrdom and why one is Ok and the other isn't, I think this is a place to start.

The taking of ANY life is very serious thing for a Christian, very serious indeed.
The giving up of a life, our life, is to be the greatest act of love we can do, as per Our Lord's words:
John 15:13

The INTENT is the crucial element.

Just as the sacrifice of our lives for love is right, the sacrifice of our lives for glory or with the notion of rewards is, IMO, wrong.

PaulSacramento wrote:

stuartcr wrote:But you wouldn't be dead if you were to agree, would you? Why is it ok to choose your own death over telling someone what they want to hear? Your life is still in your own hands, isn't it?

Agreement to what?

EX:
A man is tired of living and no longer wants the burden of wife and kids and so kills himself.
He has made the choice to take his own life.

A man has to choose between him dying or his wife and kids and so makes the choice to allow someone to kill him.
A martyrs sacrifice ultimate goal is to give/safe a life, a suicide takes life.

Agree to what was demanded of you. I understand if it is about saving others, but what about when no one else is involved? I do not understand martyrdom for religious or political beliefs.

PaulSacramento wrote:

1over137 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:In theory:
Suicide is a selfish egotistical act.
Dying a martyr is, or is suppose to be about, dying for what you believe to be right and someone else kills you.

That about suicide is really only theory.

Of course, that is why I said theory.
I am sure that some suicides are certainly not that.
BUT if one is making a distinction between suicide and martyrdom and why one is Ok and the other isn't, I think this is a place to start.

The taking of ANY life is very serious thing for a Christian, very serious indeed.
The giving up of a life, our life, is to be the greatest act of love we can do, as per Our Lord's words:
John 15:13

The INTENT is the crucial element.

Just as the sacrifice of our lives for love is right, the sacrifice of our lives for glory or with the notion of rewards is, IMO, wrong.

If intent is the crucial element, doesn't that make suicide/martyrdom, ie the taking of a human life, relative? The end is the same in either case, isn't it?

stuartcr wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

stuartcr wrote:But you wouldn't be dead if you were to agree, would you? Why is it ok to choose your own death over telling someone what they want to hear? Your life is still in your own hands, isn't it?

Agreement to what?

EX:
A man is tired of living and no longer wants the burden of wife and kids and so kills himself.
He has made the choice to take his own life.

A man has to choose between him dying or his wife and kids and so makes the choice to allow someone to kill him.
A martyrs sacrifice ultimate goal is to give/safe a life, a suicide takes life.

Agree to what was demanded of you. I understand if it is about saving others, but what about when no one else is involved? I do not understand martyrdom for religious or political beliefs.

I do NOT understand martyrdom for political reasons either.
I do understand it for religious reasons and moral reasons which, BTW, are suppose to be the same thing.

stuartcr wrote: If intent is the crucial element, doesn't that make suicide/martyrdom, ie the taking of a human life, relative? The end is the same in either case, isn't it?

There are two views on this:
The ends justify the means.
The means justify the end.

YOU have to decide for YOURSELF which side of the argument you are on.

IMO, the MEANS are what gives validity to the end result.

PaulSacramento wrote:

stuartcr wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

stuartcr wrote:But you wouldn't be dead if you were to agree, would you? Why is it ok to choose your own death over telling someone what they want to hear? Your life is still in your own hands, isn't it?

Agreement to what?

EX:
A man is tired of living and no longer wants the burden of wife and kids and so kills himself.
He has made the choice to take his own life.

A man has to choose between him dying or his wife and kids and so makes the choice to allow someone to kill him.
A martyrs sacrifice ultimate goal is to give/safe a life, a suicide takes life.

Agree to what was demanded of you. I understand if it is about saving others, but what about when no one else is involved? I do not understand martyrdom for religious or political beliefs.

I do NOT understand martyrdom for political reasons either.
I do understand it for religious reasons and moral reasons which, BTW, are suppose to be the same thing.

Do you believe God wants people to die for their beliefs?

PaulSacramento wrote:

stuartcr wrote: If intent is the crucial element, doesn't that make suicide/martyrdom, ie the taking of a human life, relative? The end is the same in either case, isn't it?

There are two views on this:
The ends justify the means.
The means justify the end.

YOU have to decide for YOURSELF which side of the argument you are on.

IMO, the MEANS are what gives validity to the end result.

Which is why I am a relativist.

stuartcr wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

stuartcr wrote: If intent is the crucial element, doesn't that make suicide/martyrdom, ie the taking of a human life, relative? The end is the same in either case, isn't it?

There are two views on this:
The ends justify the means.
The means justify the end.

YOU have to decide for YOURSELF which side of the argument you are on.

IMO, the MEANS are what gives validity to the end result.

Which is why I am a relativist.

You still have to believe logically in some sort of absolute to be a relativist or else what are you being "relative" to ?

Myself