Evidence for God from Science

Hi im new this is my first post and I have lots of questions.

outlaw wrote:Hi im new this is my first post and I have lots of questions.

Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

Who do you think?

...and why?
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B. W. wrote:

outlaw wrote:Hi im new this is my first post and I have lots of questions.

Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

Who do you think?

...and why?
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I don't know that's why im asking

Hi outlaw,

I think God made the rules. Its called 'what you sow is what you reap'. We all played the game and guess what happened ? We lost - due to all our transgressions. Our grand prize is Death.

There is however, a consolation prize. Its called 'eternal life in heaven' ! And guess who holds all the cards for that one ?

So if god made the rule and then sacrificed his son/self to save us from it why are people worshiping god? When all its doing is sparing us from the consequence of a rule in which god made? It's exactly like worshiping your friend who makes it a rule that if you eat chocolate they will cut your fingers off, but they then decide to spare your fingers by killing one of your other innocent friends, this is crazy right? It's worshiping someone for not beating you up, It's god cutting you so he can give you a bandaid and then expecting to be worshiped when your wound heals. Is it not?

We all sin.
It's inevitable.
But we can be saved regardless of our sinless state.
Because of Gods sacrifice.
That's not crazy, that's love.
It's about throwing oneself infront of death to save others.
It's putting ourselves up to be beaten instead of another, taking every blow to protect the people behind us.
It's having nails hammered into you, being wounded and cut.
We didn't do that, Jesus did.
God was beaten up, cut, bruised and killed.
Not out of an egocentric desire to be praised,
But a selfless desire to save mankind.

outlaw wrote:So if god made the rule and then sacrificed his son/self to save us from it why are people worshiping god? When all its doing is sparing us from the consequence of a rule in which god made? It's exactly like worshiping your friend who makes it a rule that if you eat chocolate they will cut your fingers off, but they then decide to spare your fingers by killing one of your other innocent friends, this is crazy right? It's worshiping someone for not beating you up, It's god cutting you so he can give you a bandaid and then expecting to be worshiped when your wound heals. Is it not?

Ahhh, the very answer I expected to hear from you!

Again, what is sin?

That is missing from your thesis.

Next, would absolute justice prohibit choice or allow it? ...and of the two, what form of justice would you desire to abide?
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melanie wrote:We all sin.
It's inevitable.
But we can be saved regardless of our sinless state.
Because of Gods sacrifice.
That's not crazy, that's love.
It's about throwing oneself infront of death to save others.
It's putting ourselves up to be beaten instead of another, taking every blow to protect the people behind us.
It's having nails hammered into you, being wounded and cut.
We didn't do that, Jesus did.
God was beaten up, cut, bruised and killed.
Not out of an egocentric desire to be praised,
But a selfless desire to save mankind.

We only sin if you already have the preconceived notion that a god exists in the first place.
If god makes the rule than sin is punished by death then creates us unable to avoid sin then decides to kill itsself/son in order to forgive us from it then thats just crazy not love.
God threw himself in front of death to spare us the punishment that GOD himself was going to dish out thats not love.
Who was jesus sacrificed to? who did the sacrifice appease? Jesus was sacrificed to save us from the consequence of sin, God/jesus chose what the consequence of sin would be, therefore god sacrificed jesus to save himself from having to follow through with his own rule. Makes so much sense.

If god creates the game, the rules, and all the players, if its omniscient, omnipotent why does he then get any praise for bending any its rules for the players?
If god can create a heaven presumably a place free of suffering, where we have freewill but never feel the need to do bad things then why not just create us in that place to begin with if it truely loved us and wanted us with it in heaven?
The fact that it didnt but had the ability to means its responsible for every bit of suffering in this world.
If god can make it a rule than only humans with free will can be happy then he could of also made it a rule that only robots can be happy and then created us unable to sin and made us so we think were choosing freely. He is all powerful right? this wouldn't be beyond him.

If your child did something wrong at school would you allow another child to be punished instead?
if you answered no because it would be immoral then you understand the morality of the question, then why is it you'd expect your children to step up to their responsibilities while at the same time not stepping up to your own?
Why is it ok for you to ride freely to heaven on the death of jesus? Do as i say not as i do, Why the double standard?
Why do you willfully choose to make humans diseased and flawed in your mind (inherrited sin) just so that you can think and feel as though your saved? Saved from what/who?
If you had the power of god could you forgive without having to kill anyone?

outlaw wrote:So if god made the rule and then sacrificed his son/self to save us from it why are people worshiping god? When all its doing is sparing us from the consequence of a rule in which god made? It's exactly like worshiping your friend who makes it a rule that if you eat chocolate they will cut your fingers off, but they then decide to spare your fingers by killing one of your other innocent friends, this is crazy right? It's worshiping someone for not beating you up, It's god cutting you so he can give you a bandaid and then expecting to be worshiped when your wound heals. Is it not?

Ahhh, the very answer I expected to hear from you and the one you just gave Melanie as well too...

So Again I ask - what is sin?

That is missing from your thesis.

Next part you have not addressed is this: would absolute justice prohibit choice or allow it? ...and of the two, what form of justice would you desire to abide?

In answering these, you may find Melanie's response valid and yours a bit out of tune.
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So if god made the rule and then sacrificed his son/self to save us from it why are people worshiping god? When all its doing is sparing us from the consequence of a rule in which god made? It's exactly like worshiping your friend who makes it a rule that if you eat chocolate they will cut your fingers off, but they then decide to spare your fingers by killing one of your other innocent friends, this is crazy right? It's worshiping someone for not beating you up, It's god cutting you so he can give you a bandaid and then expecting to be worshiped when your wound heals. Is it not?
Do you always try to avoid having to answer questions by asking questions instead?
It would be nice to get some answers.
Providing the definition of sin is besides the point but I will anyway, sin is breaking gods law.
Now I'll explain why defining sin is useless, I always hear the following 'we all sin' what you fail to realise is that sin only means something inside the boundaries of religion. You have to first prove god exists before you can go worrying about what will happen if you break any of his laws. You need to understand that sin is something you were taught, sin is a man made concept to make you think there's something inherently wrong with you, to make you feel irrational guilt and therefore feel you need saving, Christianity is selling you a cure you don't need for a disease you don't and never did have. Ask yourself, before you'd read a page of the Bible or heard a single word spoken about what sin is did you think you were a sinner? Yeah we do wrong things but we need forgiveness from each other not from an intangible invisible sky daddy. Thinking that god has forgiven you only makes you feel better not the person you wronged. We were all born without beliefs in any gods how do you go on to believe that your breaking a gods law? Is it because you felt guilty after reading in the christian book of mythology all about how Jesus died for you and then thought 'well I must be, he wouldn't of done that for nothing'.

Prove sin! the bible makes the claim that we're all sinners, prove it without using the bible to back up itself? Prove it without already proving that god exists. Until you do, the word sin holds no meaning at all, so you can choose to believe your a sinner but your only doing it because you like the feeling of thinking your pardoned and the idea of praising a god for it.
In answering these, you may find Melanie's response valid and yours a bit out of tune.

outlaw wrote:So if god made the rule and then sacrificed his son/self to save us from it why are people worshiping god? When all its doing is sparing us from the consequence of a rule in which god made? It's exactly like worshiping your friend who makes it a rule that if you eat chocolate they will cut your fingers off, but they then decide to spare your fingers by killing one of your other innocent friends, this is crazy right? It's worshiping someone for not beating you up, It's god cutting you so he can give you a bandaid and then expecting to be worshiped when your wound heals. Is it not?

Do you always try to avoid having to answer questions by asking questions instead?

It would be nice to get some answers.

Providing the definition of sin is besides the point but I will anyway, sin is breaking gods law.

Now I'll explain why defining sin is useless, I always hear the following 'we all sin' what you fail to realise is that sin only means something inside the boundaries of religion. You have to first prove god exists before you can go worrying about what will happen if you break any of his laws. You need to understand that sin is something you were taught, sin is a man made concept to make you think there's something inherently wrong with you, to make you feel irrational guilt and therefore feel you need saving, Christianity is selling you a cure you don't need for a disease you don't and never did have. Ask yourself, before you'd read a page of the Bible or heard a single word spoken about what sin is did you think you were a sinner? Yeah we do wrong things but we need forgiveness from each other not from an intangible invisible sky daddy. Thinking that god has forgiven you only makes you feel better not the person you wronged. We were all born without beliefs in any gods how do you go on to believe that your breaking a gods law? Is it because you felt guilty after reading in the christian book of mythology all about how Jesus died for you and then thought 'well I must be, he wouldn't of done that for nothing'.

Prove sin! the bible makes the claim that we're all sinners, prove it without using the bible to back up itself? Prove it without already proving that god exists. Until you do, the word sin holds no meaning at all, so you can choose to believe your a sinner but your only doing it because you like the feeling of thinking your pardoned and the idea of praising a god for it.

In answering these, you may find Melanie's response valid and yours a bit out of tune.

So you claim that defining sin is useless, let’s see…

Have you ever heard of the message of the cross? It is there where the true definition of sin is exposed. Yet you claim that none can define sin because sin is only limited to breaking imaginary laws made by an imagery God. As such, sin is purely stealing a candy bar, cheating on a test, robbing you of your bank account. These acts only exposes the fruits of sin not what it is and does to exploit, justify self, and how it seeks twist things to get oneself out of jam.

So prove sin – okay:

So do you really want to hear what sin is in a simple way you can understand it without the bible - yes and no to you then. Can you actually be intellectually honest with yourself and actually read the verses cited in full context as what Jesus went through, proves sin indeed exist within you without the bible? You have many misconceptions about God and the bible and base your logic on misconceptions. So No to you concerning using the bible but yes, it can be proved sin is indeed within you later without using the bible. How?

The Cross

Matthew 26:14-15 Jesus was betrayed by a friend.

Jesus mentioned principle in Matthew 25:40: 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me.'

So outlaw, whom have you betrayed, rejected, abandoned? - Friends, family, strangers, yourself, how about God? Are you not betraying God as evidenced by what you wrote above? How many people have you betrayed, rejected, abandoned, let down all the while justifying yourself in doing so and this is not sin? You say, all people make mistakes - is that not done to absolve you of your on wrong doings?

You see, sin is more than stealing a candy bar…or a breaking set of laws.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus

Whom have you betrayed, rejected, abandoned in your life?

Matthew 26:3-4 people assembled and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him.

There are many ways to kill a person, yet, not physically murder them, such as in character assassination, or by anger, bitterness, and even vindictive attitudes as well as outright murder. So whom have you plotted harm too? Why are you actually here on this forum? What is you purpose? Whom do you wish to slay and why? The cross is speaking…

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus

We are doing you no harm. Many Christians do good and help others, yet you seek our demise and yet, this is not sin?

So outlaw, whom have you plotted and sought to murder? What relationships you seek to and have slain? - Friends, family, strangers, yourself, how about God?


Matthew 26:56 Jesus was forsaken by those whom he knew

How many people have you forsaken that knew you and counted on you and you think you are a good person – right? Friends, family, strangers, yourself, how about God?

And you say this is not sin?
…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:59-60 sought false testimony to kill Jesus and contrived it…

How many times you lied to get out of a jam, how many times you sought to slay someone with words – was it to friends, family, strangers, Christians, God?

Do you think God wants to live forever with such folks that justify their actions for such slaying and lying - have you not also done so in so many various ways too?

Ever told a lie, ever made fun of someone. ever hated another? Wished another harm and justify these in your mind as the right things to do - are you not still doing so now?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:66-68 spat and mocked him demanding that Christ perform for them on their terms

How many have you mocked in your life and scoffed at – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and are you not doing so now with God?

Why should he speak to such who seek his demise? Yet he is…

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:75 his own friends denied knowing him…

How many times have you did likewise to Family, friends, self, strangers, God and justify yourself in doing so… I didn’t do it, it’s their fault when it wasn’t? Whom have you denied needed affection/nurture in time of their need – your own children, spouse, friends, family, stranger, Christians, God? Is you love mere hypocrisy?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus

Matthew 27:1,2 people plotted to kill Jesus and went to the governing authorities to carry this task – to legitimize their actions as legal under law. In fact in Luke 23:1-7 it mentions how a multitude sought to gain support of a governing authority to legalize their hate to murder a just person and falsely accused him of teaching errors and passing the buck to escape blame.

How many ways do you seek some sort of legal authority to justify what you do such as moral relativism, courts, to put to death what you do not like about – Family, friends, self, strangers, and are you not doing so now with God?

Do you not see how these people attempted to put words in Jesus mouth to falsely accuse him of wrong doing? Then demand that he cannot speak and we can’t use the bible – are you not doing this crime now?

outlaw wrote:We only sin if you already have the preconceived notion that a god exists in the first place. If god makes the rule than sin is punished by death then creates us unable to avoid sin then decides to kill itsself/son in order to forgive us from it then thats just crazy not love.
God threw himself in front of death to spare us the punishment that GOD himself was going to dish out thats not love.

Who was jesus sacrificed to? who did the sacrifice appease? Jesus was sacrificed to save us from the consequence of sin, God/jesus chose what the consequence of sin would be, therefore god sacrificed jesus to save himself from having to follow through with his own rule. Makes so much sense.

Why is it ok for you to ride freely to heaven on the death of jesus? Do as i say not as i do, Why the double standard?Why do you willfully choose to make humans diseased and flawed in your mind (inherrited sin) just so that you can think and feel as though your saved? Saved from what/who? If you had the power of god could you forgive without having to kill anyone?

You need to understand that sin is something you were taught, sin is a man made concept to make you think there's something inherently wrong with you, to make you feel irrational guilt and therefore feel you need saving, Christianity is selling you a cure you don't need for a disease you don't and never did have. Ask yourself, before you'd read a page of the Bible or heard a single word spoken about what sin is did you think you were a sinner? Yeah we do wrong things but we need forgiveness from each other not from an intangible invisible sky daddy. Thinking that god has forgiven you only makes you feel better not the person you wronged. We were all born without beliefs in any gods how do you go on to believe that your breaking a gods law? Is it because you felt guilty after reading in the christian book of mythology all about how Jesus died for you and then thought 'well I must be, he wouldn't of done that for nothing'.

Prove sin! (But don’t use the bible)

Do you not trying to pit God’s bible against itself to justify your anger and disbelief in God? What's the difference - Do you not do so to others – family, friends, strangers, Christians, God? Yes, you do not need the bible to prove sin as it is certainly within you, killing you softly.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Luke 23:8,9 Herod hoped to see some miracle done by Jesus but Jesus answered not a word...

Are you not saying this and doing so, what difference is there in Herod comments and yours and Jesus answered not a word?

You demand signs and that God if he exist must act your way or else? Who in the world are you – are you really absolutely just and fair to all? Would you grant a choice of freedom to your enemies? Yet you deem us here, Christians, your enemies and seek to destroy / slay faith in God's great grace towards enemies – are you not doing this now and this is not sin?

You demand signs and that God if he exist must act your way or else? Who in the world are you – are you really absolutely just and fair to all? Would you grant a choice of freedom to your enemies? Yet you deem us here, Christians, your enemies and deny choice to us – are you not doing this and this is not sin?

How do you make demands on – Family, friends, strangers, to live to your standards to prove themselves true to you? Are you not doing so now with God? Us here? Yet you deem God mean spirited for instructing right from wrong?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Luke 23:11,12 Jesus treated with contempt and mocked and was sent Him back to governing authority and a deal between the governmental authorities was sealed by betraying the good to die.

Then in, Matthew 27:12-26 Governing authority sought and the people traded good in exchange for the bad dude…a compromise in morality justified by putting Jesus to death. You see Outlaw, you and I put Jesus to death – why? Because we hate and justify it as the good thing to do.

Why would anyone allow themselves to die, just to expose what is truly within the heart – sin - so one can see what they have done and do to family, friends, strangers, and yes, even God in order to be offered a true release from continuing doing these things?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 27:27-31 – Jesus treated with contempt – mocked, beaten

How often have you used morality in a relativistic fashion to justify the bad in exchange for the good? How many have you treated with contempt and mocked - – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and seek legal justification in doing so either in your mind or use of legal force? Are you not doing so now and bearing false witnesses and tempting to pit God’s words against themselves and you think you are so noble and pure to deserve heaven or the peace of non-existence?

Who have you beaten with words and false innuendos? Are you not doing so now? Your love is just as false as all other folks are…you can’t even live up to your own standards of love you accuse others of not living up too.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 27:33-45 – Jesus was crucified, garments divided, mocked to perform for the crowd so they could believe…

Are not you so doing this now? The nature of the human heart toward family, friends, strangers, God is revealed by the events portray uncovering what really is in the human heart – including yours… now, today…

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 27:46 why have you forsaken me…

Look around at the base of the cross – what do you see – mocking people who consent with the death of God, people demanding him to perform to their expectations or else, people dividing things God provides greedily. You see those that put the nails in him. You see, those that conspired and spoke falsehoods about him and those who trade the bad in exchange for the good… Did God really forsake Jesus or did humanity forsake God?

This is answered in the silence of the scene because we do the same to family, friends, strangers… Is it any wonder humanity – forsaken? They don’t want God – do you?

– are you not demanding God speak and perform for you, do you not desire God’s death and seek to expunge his goodness from the face of the planet? Why?

And you boldly assert that He must bow to your terms

So without the bible can you not see how you live in treatment of family, friends, self, strangers, God… You expect him to obey you with a heart like yours?

You see, you do not know what you are doing and Jesus died at the hands of sinners so you can see and understand what caused God to turn his back on humanity but did he really? No…

He sent Christ Jesus to expose sin and then to bear those sins upon that cross suspended between God and man bearing your wrath and God’s wrath by paying the death penalty for your actions.

Then He said this…

Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive (release) them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots…

So how do you treat him when he offers this? Why do you continue to cast lots? Cannot you see His true motive is to expose who and what you are really like to friends, family, strangers, yourself, Christians, God in order to wake you up?

You no nothing of the cross or God but rather only theories and have an ax to grind and for that you claim is not sin. You put Christ on the cross everyday and what you have written testifies of this on this very forum.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus
Prove sin? How to an ungrateful hate filled, manipulative, diabolically inclined person as you are who seeks to twist things to escape any wrong doing on his or her part. Unless one sees what they have done to others upon the cross of Christ they will never see what sin really is.

Prove sin – it’s been proved – within you, alive and well.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus
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outlaw wrote:

melanie wrote:We all sin.
It's inevitable.
But we can be saved regardless of our sinless state.
Because of Gods sacrifice.
That's not crazy, that's love.
It's about throwing oneself infront of death to save others.
It's putting ourselves up to be beaten instead of another, taking every blow to protect the people behind us.
It's having nails hammered into you, being wounded and cut.
We didn't do that, Jesus did.
God was beaten up, cut, bruised and killed.
Not out of an egocentric desire to be praised,
But a selfless desire to save mankind.

We only sin if you already have the preconceived notion that a god exists in the first place.
If god makes the rule than sin is punished by death then creates us unable to avoid sin then decides to kill itsself/son in order to forgive us from it then thats just crazy not love.
God threw himself in front of death to spare us the punishment that GOD himself was going to dish out thats not love.
Who was jesus sacrificed to? who did the sacrifice appease? Jesus was sacrificed to save us from the consequence of sin, God/jesus chose what the consequence of sin would be, therefore god sacrificed jesus to save himself from having to follow through with his own rule. Makes so much sense.

If god creates the game, the rules, and all the players, if its omniscient, omnipotent why does he then get any praise for bending any its rules for the players?
If god can create a heaven presumably a place free of suffering, where we have freewill but never feel the need to do bad things then why not just create us in that place to begin with if it truely loved us and wanted us with it in heaven?
The fact that it didnt but had the ability to means its responsible for every bit of suffering in this world.
If god can make it a rule than only humans with free will can be happy then he could of also made it a rule that only robots can be happy and then created us unable to sin and made us so we think were choosing freely. He is all powerful right? this wouldn't be beyond him.

If your child did something wrong at school would you allow another child to be punished instead?
if you answered no because it would be immoral then you understand the morality of the question, then why is it you'd expect your children to step up to their responsibilities while at the same time not stepping up to your own?
Why is it ok for you to ride freely to heaven on the death of jesus? Do as i say not as i do, Why the double standard?
Why do you willfully choose to make humans diseased and flawed in your mind (inherrited sin) just so that you can think and feel as though your saved? Saved from what/who?
If you had the power of god could you forgive without having to kill anyone?

You see sin is really sin even if a person doesn't believe in God. You can choose to not call it sin, call it 'wrongdoing' 'immoral' whatever but perhaps your getting hung up on the word itself not the implications of the word. People who do not believe in God still teach their children to not steal, not lie, not kill. We would still teach our teenagers and young adults to not 'mess around' with their mates girlfriend or boyfriend, why? Cause you just don't, it's simply just not the right way to act. Respecting others is admirable. Being mean is not. We choose how to live our lives. How to act. That is free will. God gave us free will not as a pretty sure way to get most of us to sin and into hell but out of love. For quality of life. In the same way I teach my children how to act but I know that they won't behave how I want them to all the time. I want children with free will, able to mistakes, in error so many times so they can look back and grow. I know some parents that are far to hard on their children, the kids are scared of them, they don't step a foot wrong out of fear. I feel really sorry for those kids. I would much prefer my sometimes 'naughty' kids, who sometimes do as I ask out of respect never out of fear, and sometimes they use their will and do the opposite.
Christians sin. Non christians sin. God loves us all anyway. To not have a personal relationship with God so often causes people to think of Him as this great big nasty God, demanding everyone to not sin, demanding praise or else we are all going to hell. The church hasn't helped much in that regard. When you get to know God as your Father then everything you thought you knew, have been told or taught about Him falls to the wayside. You see Him as He really is.
He teaches us to not sin for the same reason we teach our children, to protect them. We would never say to our children live how ever you want, lie, cheat, steal, treat people poorly, walk over the top of them, take what ever you want from people, physically, emotionally, materialistically, sexually. A race, a person, a society, human kind would fall into anarchy if everyone behaved like this. God gave us rules to live by, not because he is some type of egotistical dictator, but because He loves us, He wants to protect us, like we instill what is 'right' in our children, to protect them, not to rule over them.
God sent Jesus here because He wanted to save us, but He also wanted to understand us and wanted us to understand Him. Have you ever had that feeling when someone is saying something and your like "yes, I get exactly what your saying" because you have had a similar experience, feeling or thought. God came here through His son in the flesh and walked around with us. He cried, felt fear, anger, sorrow. Faced temptation, saw our weaknesses and sacrificed Himself for us. Jesus was going around doing all kinds of miraculous things, saying things that were so profound with an authority outside of mans and man didn't like it. They were jealous of His majesty. Of His wisdom. Of they way people flocked to Him and worshipped Him. Jesus could have used wrath and vengeance to overcome them, taken Himself off that cross and kicked some serious butt but He didn't. He even had a moment when He asked His Father 'do we really have to do this?' God gave us His son so that He could through His sacrifice save us. Sacrifice is giving something up of extreme value for the considerations of others. We hear of heroic acts all the time, of someone giving up their life to save another. There is no greater sign of sacrifice than losing your life to save another, even in this world. That is what He did. Gave up His life not just to save another but to save all of us. He threw Himself infront of the bus, He dove in the water when someone was sinking, he took the bullet, he jumped infront the sword, He stood infront of all us and shielded us from all oncoming attacks. He hung up on that cross, spread out His arms and forever put a barrier between us and death.
That is why I will praise and worship and love Him everyday. Nothing at all to do with fear but everything to do with LOVE.

Melanie,

What I find odd is this, how a person would not deny someone accused of a crime the right to use his/her testimony and whatever evidence to prove their respective innocence. Yet, people like Outlaw demands that God is guilty of great crimes and yet deny him the right to use his own words (the bible) and evidence? Amazing, isn't it?

Instead, these folks are like the Pharisees who did this long ago to Jesus by taking selected words from the bible out of context to prove God guilty and do what they can to bring false witnesses against him while demanding he confess blasphemy against humanity so they can put God to death. They do this by denying God the right to speak and present evidence contrary to their charges. Then have the gall to say sin does not exist so they can get away with doing this! How is that just? Not at all - and proves that the sin of unjustness, deception, vindictive hate, is alive and well in such folks.

If a man was wrongly convicted of a crime and people went through the record of all his words spoken, and deeds, then misconstrued them to prove he is guilty of a crime he never committed and then not permitting him to use evidence and the context of his own words that will clear his name, that would be unjust would it not? Yet, folks still do so with God and the bible just as they did to Jesus long ago - nothing has changed.

Sin is real...

outlaw wrote:Prove sin! the bible makes the claim that we're all sinners, prove it without using the bible to back up itself? Prove it without already proving that god exists.

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Why is it so hard for any of you answer simple questions? My father in law is a retired Lutheran pastor he does the same thing, im also asking the same questions to a chaplain via email he's doing the same thing, i just recently joined another christian forum and im getting the same there also its really frustrating.
Do i have to ask them all again?
Firstly you need to realise that quoting the Bible is as useful as quoting a Harry Potter book to try and convince me Harry Potter exists, don't waste your time with it, unless you can firstly prove the bible is anything more than an ancient story. Just so you know where im coming from if i was to start throwing verses at you from the Tipitaka (Sacred book of buddism) are you going to really care about what it says? are you going to believe in budda? because in that book it CLAIMS budda spoke those words, so what reason do you have to not believe that? Why do you believe the same when its CLAIMED in the bible?
Buddists CLAIM that believing in budda transforms their lives, provides meaning, makes them better people etc all the same things christians claim about their god. it seems it doesnt really matter what god you follow they all seem to work for the people that follow them (funny that since they all claim that their following the ONE TRUE god) so if you can get the same results following Budda why don't you? It wouldnt have anything to do with your geographic location or what religion was most accessable to you at the time you were searching or what version of afterlife appeals to you more would it?
Before you reply to these questions can you first address my first ones or things could get confusing.

B. W. wrote:

outlaw wrote:So if god made the rule and then sacrificed his son/self to save us from it why are people worshiping god? When all its doing is sparing us from the consequence of a rule in which god made? It's exactly like worshiping your friend who makes it a rule that if you eat chocolate they will cut your fingers off, but they then decide to spare your fingers by killing one of your other innocent friends, this is crazy right? It's worshiping someone for not beating you up, It's god cutting you so he can give you a bandaid and then expecting to be worshiped when your wound heals. Is it not?

Do you always try to avoid having to answer questions by asking questions instead?

It would be nice to get some answers.

Providing the definition of sin is besides the point but I will anyway, sin is breaking gods law.

Now I'll explain why defining sin is useless, I always hear the following 'we all sin' what you fail to realise is that sin only means something inside the boundaries of religion. You have to first prove god exists before you can go worrying about what will happen if you break any of his laws. You need to understand that sin is something you were taught, sin is a man made concept to make you think there's something inherently wrong with you, to make you feel irrational guilt and therefore feel you need saving, Christianity is selling you a cure you don't need for a disease you don't and never did have. Ask yourself, before you'd read a page of the Bible or heard a single word spoken about what sin is did you think you were a sinner? Yeah we do wrong things but we need forgiveness from each other not from an intangible invisible sky daddy. Thinking that god has forgiven you only makes you feel better not the person you wronged. We were all born without beliefs in any gods how do you go on to believe that your breaking a gods law? Is it because you felt guilty after reading in the christian book of mythology all about how Jesus died for you and then thought 'well I must be, he wouldn't of done that for nothing'.

Prove sin! the bible makes the claim that we're all sinners, prove it without using the bible to back up itself? Prove it without already proving that god exists. Until you do, the word sin holds no meaning at all, so you can choose to believe your a sinner but your only doing it because you like the feeling of thinking your pardoned and the idea of praising a god for it.

In answering these, you may find Melanie's response valid and yours a bit out of tune.

So you claim that defining sin is useless, let’s see…

Have you ever heard of the message of the cross? It is there where the true definition of sin is exposed. Yet you claim that none can define sin because sin is only limited to breaking imaginary laws made by an imagery God. As such, sin is purely stealing a candy bar, cheating on a test, robbing you of your bank account. These acts only exposes the fruits of sin not what it is and does to exploit, justify self, and how it seeks twist things to get oneself out of jam.

So prove sin – okay:

So do you really want to hear what sin is in a simple way you can understand it without the bible - yes and no to you then. Can you actually be intellectually honest with yourself and actually read the verses cited in full context as what Jesus went through, proves sin indeed exist within you without the bible? You have many misconceptions about God and the bible and base your logic on misconceptions. So No to you concerning using the bible but yes, it can be proved sin is indeed within you later without using the bible. How?

The Cross

Matthew 26:14-15 Jesus was betrayed by a friend.

Jesus mentioned principle in Matthew 25:40: 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me.'

So outlaw, whom have you betrayed, rejected, abandoned? - Friends, family, strangers, yourself, how about God? Are you not betraying God as evidenced by what you wrote above? How many people have you betrayed, rejected, abandoned, let down all the while justifying yourself in doing so and this is not sin? You say, all people make mistakes - is that not done to absolve you of your on wrong doings?

You see, sin is more than stealing a candy bar…or a breaking set of laws.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus

Whom have you betrayed, rejected, abandoned in your life?

Matthew 26:3-4 people assembled and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him.

There are many ways to kill a person, yet, not physically murder them, such as in character assassination, or by anger, bitterness, and even vindictive attitudes as well as outright murder. So whom have you plotted harm too? Why are you actually here on this forum? What is you purpose? Whom do you wish to slay and why? The cross is speaking…

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus

We are doing you no harm. Many Christians do good and help others, yet you seek our demise and yet, this is not sin?

So outlaw, whom have you plotted and sought to murder? What relationships you seek to and have slain? - Friends, family, strangers, yourself, how about God?


Matthew 26:56 Jesus was forsaken by those whom he knew

How many people have you forsaken that knew you and counted on you and you think you are a good person – right? Friends, family, strangers, yourself, how about God?

And you say this is not sin?
…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:59-60 sought false testimony to kill Jesus and contrived it…

How many times you lied to get out of a jam, how many times you sought to slay someone with words – was it to friends, family, strangers, Christians, God?

Do you think God wants to live forever with such folks that justify their actions for such slaying and lying - have you not also done so in so many various ways too?

Ever told a lie, ever made fun of someone. ever hated another? Wished another harm and justify these in your mind as the right things to do - are you not still doing so now?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:66-68 spat and mocked him demanding that Christ perform for them on their terms

How many have you mocked in your life and scoffed at – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and are you not doing so now with God?

Why should he speak to such who seek his demise? Yet he is…

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:75 his own friends denied knowing him…

How many times have you did likewise to Family, friends, self, strangers, God and justify yourself in doing so… I didn’t do it, it’s their fault when it wasn’t? Whom have you denied needed affection/nurture in time of their need – your own children, spouse, friends, family, stranger, Christians, God? Is you love mere hypocrisy?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus

Matthew 27:1,2 people plotted to kill Jesus and went to the governing authorities to carry this task – to legitimize their actions as legal under law. In fact in Luke 23:1-7 it mentions how a multitude sought to gain support of a governing authority to legalize their hate to murder a just person and falsely accused him of teaching errors and passing the buck to escape blame.

How many ways do you seek some sort of legal authority to justify what you do such as moral relativism, courts, to put to death what you do not like about – Family, friends, self, strangers, and are you not doing so now with God?

Do you not see how these people attempted to put words in Jesus mouth to falsely accuse him of wrong doing? Then demand that he cannot speak and we can’t use the bible – are you not doing this crime now?

outlaw wrote:We only sin if you already have the preconceived notion that a god exists in the first place. If god makes the rule than sin is punished by death then creates us unable to avoid sin then decides to kill itsself/son in order to forgive us from it then thats just crazy not love.
God threw himself in front of death to spare us the punishment that GOD himself was going to dish out thats not love.

Who was jesus sacrificed to? who did the sacrifice appease? Jesus was sacrificed to save us from the consequence of sin, God/jesus chose what the consequence of sin would be, therefore god sacrificed jesus to save himself from having to follow through with his own rule. Makes so much sense.

Why is it ok for you to ride freely to heaven on the death of jesus? Do as i say not as i do, Why the double standard?Why do you willfully choose to make humans diseased and flawed in your mind (inherrited sin) just so that you can think and feel as though your saved? Saved from what/who? If you had the power of god could you forgive without having to kill anyone?

You need to understand that sin is something you were taught, sin is a man made concept to make you think there's something inherently wrong with you, to make you feel irrational guilt and therefore feel you need saving, Christianity is selling you a cure you don't need for a disease you don't and never did have. Ask yourself, before you'd read a page of the Bible or heard a single word spoken about what sin is did you think you were a sinner? Yeah we do wrong things but we need forgiveness from each other not from an intangible invisible sky daddy. Thinking that god has forgiven you only makes you feel better not the person you wronged. We were all born without beliefs in any gods how do you go on to believe that your breaking a gods law? Is it because you felt guilty after reading in the christian book of mythology all about how Jesus died for you and then thought 'well I must be, he wouldn't of done that for nothing'.

Prove sin! (But don’t use the bible)

Do you not trying to pit God’s bible against itself to justify your anger and disbelief in God? What's the difference - Do you not do so to others – family, friends, strangers, Christians, God? Yes, you do not need the bible to prove sin as it is certainly within you, killing you softly.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Luke 23:8,9 Herod hoped to see some miracle done by Jesus but Jesus answered not a word...

Are you not saying this and doing so, what difference is there in Herod comments and yours and Jesus answered not a word?

You demand signs and that God if he exist must act your way or else? Who in the world are you – are you really absolutely just and fair to all? Would you grant a choice of freedom to your enemies? Yet you deem us here, Christians, your enemies and seek to destroy / slay faith in God's great grace towards enemies – are you not doing this now and this is not sin?

You demand signs and that God if he exist must act your way or else? Who in the world are you – are you really absolutely just and fair to all? Would you grant a choice of freedom to your enemies? Yet you deem us here, Christians, your enemies and deny choice to us – are you not doing this and this is not sin?

How do you make demands on – Family, friends, strangers, to live to your standards to prove themselves true to you? Are you not doing so now with God? Us here? Yet you deem God mean spirited for instructing right from wrong?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Luke 23:11,12 Jesus treated with contempt and mocked and was sent Him back to governing authority and a deal between the governmental authorities was sealed by betraying the good to die.

Then in, Matthew 27:12-26 Governing authority sought and the people traded good in exchange for the bad dude…a compromise in morality justified by putting Jesus to death. You see Outlaw, you and I put Jesus to death – why? Because we hate and justify it as the good thing to do.

Why would anyone allow themselves to die, just to expose what is truly within the heart – sin - so one can see what they have done and do to family, friends, strangers, and yes, even God in order to be offered a true release from continuing doing these things?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 27:27-31 – Jesus treated with contempt – mocked, beaten

How often have you used morality in a relativistic fashion to justify the bad in exchange for the good? How many have you treated with contempt and mocked - – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and seek legal justification in doing so either in your mind or use of legal force? Are you not doing so now and bearing false witnesses and tempting to pit God’s words against themselves and you think you are so noble and pure to deserve heaven or the peace of non-existence?

Who have you beaten with words and false innuendos? Are you not doing so now? Your love is just as false as all other folks are…you can’t even live up to your own standards of love you accuse others of not living up too.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 27:33-45 – Jesus was crucified, garments divided, mocked to perform for the crowd so they could believe…

Are not you so doing this now? The nature of the human heart toward family, friends, strangers, God is revealed by the events portray uncovering what really is in the human heart – including yours… now, today…

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 27:46 why have you forsaken me…

Look around at the base of the cross – what do you see – mocking people who consent with the death of God, people demanding him to perform to their expectations or else, people dividing things God provides greedily. You see those that put the nails in him. You see, those that conspired and spoke falsehoods about him and those who trade the bad in exchange for the good… Did God really forsake Jesus or did humanity forsake God?

This is answered in the silence of the scene because we do the same to family, friends, strangers… Is it any wonder humanity – forsaken? They don’t want God – do you?

– are you not demanding God speak and perform for you, do you not desire God’s death and seek to expunge his goodness from the face of the planet? Why?

And you boldly assert that He must bow to your terms

So without the bible can you not see how you live in treatment of family, friends, self, strangers, God… You expect him to obey you with a heart like yours?

You see, you do not know what you are doing and Jesus died at the hands of sinners so you can see and understand what caused God to turn his back on humanity but did he really? No…

He sent Christ Jesus to expose sin and then to bear those sins upon that cross suspended between God and man bearing your wrath and God’s wrath by paying the death penalty for your actions.

Then He said this…

Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive (release) them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots…

So how do you treat him when he offers this? Why do you continue to cast lots? Cannot you see His true motive is to expose who and what you are really like to friends, family, strangers, yourself, Christians, God in order to wake you up?

You no nothing of the cross or God but rather only theories and have an ax to grind and for that you claim is not sin. You put Christ on the cross everyday and what you have written testifies of this on this very forum.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus
Prove sin? How to an ungrateful hate filled, manipulative, diabolically inclined person as you are who seeks to twist things to escape any wrong doing on his or her part. Unless one sees what they have done to others upon the cross of Christ they will never see what sin really is.

Prove sin – it’s been proved – within you, alive and well.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus
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Your totally missing the point, if sin is breaking gods law and this sin is explained in a book then you firstly need to prove that the book is anything more than a ancient collection of stories and secondly prove that the God spoken about in the book is anything more than a chatracter in the book, without useing the bible to prove the bible. Unless you can do that then why would anyone care if they broke a law of a character in a book?
Why cant anyone answer questions ill try again.
Before you'd read a page of the Bible or heard a single word spoken about what sin is did you think you were a sinner?
We were all born without beliefs in any gods how do you go on to believe that your breaking a gods law?