Evidence for God from Science

Stardust wrote:Are humans beings worthy of salvation or not?

2.
(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

My problem today is with a different aspect of the doctrine: the uncomfortable marriage between the supposedly irredeemable nature of humanity and the proffered solution of salvation.

For those unfamiliar, a basic tenet of most Christian evangelism is that no one is simply worthy of salvation by their mere existence; no one is without sin (the merest bit of which is, apparently, intolerable), and thus no one is deserving of any forgiveness from God for their failings or of a chance to share in the Christian paradise. Supposedly, human beings are so fallen, so vile, that Mr. Perfect cannot tolerate our continued existence for more than, oh, say 6000-7000 years, at best.

This claim is quickly followed up by the promise of a path to salvation: simply believe the correct ideology, and do your best to keep believing in it, and somehow now you’re now acceptable and forgiven, despite still being no less sinful than before.

The implication here is that we should be so amazed and thankful and full of praise that we got something we did not deserve. This emotional theater might have appeal inasmuch as it seems to match up with other human experiences (I didn’t deserve this bagel, but you bought one for me anyway: that’s so sweet of you!), but when presented as a moral philosophy, it’s flatly ridiculous.

If human beings are not morally worthy of whatever “salvation” is, then Jesus’s saving of humanity is simply not a praiseworthy action at all. Either it’s moral to save human beings, or it isn’t. Either God’s original anger at humans for failing to live up to impossibly inhuman demands (again, another topic for another time) is righteous, or Jesus’ scheme for salvation is, but it cannot be both. As much as theologians have tried to avoid this aspect of their story, the doctrine of salvation is morally schizophrenic to its core.

Either we are like a reckless child now drowning in a well who needs saving, or we are like a rapist that never gets caught by the police. Saving the former is moral, even if the child is “imperfect,” but helping the latter escape custody would be is abhorrent and wrong (or at least insofar as catching and jailing the rapist will actually do some good for the world, something neither the Christian visions of eternal torment nor even simple oblivion accomplish: again a matter for another time). Aiding and abetting a criminal so that they can outrun police is not considered an act of justice: so why would Jesus pardon of supposedly unredeemable people be a good thing? Why should anyone praise him for it? And if the proscribed punishment (either eternal torment or oblivion) is so unbelievably horrible that those that might suffer it deserve pity, then it is the punishment itself is what’s wrong.

It’s not my purpose here to argue that human beings really are irredeemable (in fact, I don’t see why the alleged perfect should ultimately be the enemy of the good, the acceptable, or even the depraved), but simply to insist that one cannot have it both ways. Supposed moral principles demand, above all else, consistency. The Christian story of salvation (and damnation, though not all believe in that half) provides none. Jehovah is vengeful to the point of insanity. Jesus, on the other hand, is essentially soft on crime. Likewise, we have the bizarre doctrine that humans are fundamentally incapable of being good… and yet it then turns out that they are capable of of it in what turns out to be the only thing that actually matters to Christian concepts of good and evil: whether people believe the correct things or not (something I’ve argued elsewhere is an inexcusably trivial matter and irrelevant on which to base ones treatment of others).

Of course, I’m not sure the doctrine is really supposed to make any sense. It has, after all, proven to be extremely effective simply as a form of emotional manipulation (both to evangelize new converts and to buttress existing faith). And it’s not hard to see why. The theology begins by attempting to inspire guilt: deep metaphysical guilt (how dare I even exist, detestable creature I!). And then, just when it’s created the requisite amount of misery and self-hatred, it follows it up with an offer of release and restitution. It’s a sort of dramatic roller-coaster: inspiring deep self-loathing in someone in order to win a grateful devotion to whomever proffers a solution. It’s the same psychological technique used everything from basic training to criminal interrogations: break someone’s will, and then build them back up again.

RickD wrote:

Stardust wrote:Are humans beings worthy of salvation or not?

No. This is one of the most basic things about the Christian faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Salvation is by God's grace. And grace is defined as:

2.
(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

Stardust wrote:

RickD wrote:

Stardust wrote:Are humans beings worthy of salvation or not?

No. This is one of the most basic things about the Christian faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Salvation is by God's grace. And grace is defined as:

2.
(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

I didn't ask are we worthy of it by ourselves, i asked are we worthy of it at all?

RickD wrote:

Stardust wrote:

RickD wrote:

Stardust wrote:Are humans beings worthy of salvation or not?

No. This is one of the most basic things about the Christian faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Salvation is by God's grace. And grace is defined as:

2.
(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

I didn't ask are we worthy of it by ourselves, i asked are we worthy of it at all?

No. What don't you understand about what I wrote? God alone is worthy. His grace is not given to us because we are worthy.
This is Christianity 101.

And please stop trying to post quotes from atheist blogs. If you're truly interested in what Christians believe, ask us. Reading a blog by an atheist who claims he used to be a Christian, but can't even grasp the basics of Christianity, won't give you a biblical pov. You're only getting a warped view of scripture. Ask questions, be sincere, and then if you choose to turn down the free gift of eternal life, at least you'll know what the bible really says. Not what a clueless(about salvation) blog writing atheist says.

If human beings are not morally worthy of whatever “salvation” is, then Jesus’s saving of humanity is simply not a praiseworthy action at all. Either it’s moral to save human beings, or it isn’t. Either God’s original anger at humans for failing to live up to impossibly inhuman demands is righteous, or Jesus’ scheme for salvation is, but it cannot be both.

Stardust wrote:

RickD wrote:

Stardust wrote:

RickD wrote:

Stardust wrote:Are humans beings worthy of salvation or not?

No. This is one of the most basic things about the Christian faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Salvation is by God's grace. And grace is defined as:

2.
(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

I didn't ask are we worthy of it by ourselves, i asked are we worthy of it at all?

No. What don't you understand about what I wrote? God alone is worthy. His grace is not given to us because we are worthy.
This is Christianity 101.

And please stop trying to post quotes from atheist blogs. If you're truly interested in what Christians believe, ask us. Reading a blog by an atheist who claims he used to be a Christian, but can't even grasp the basics of Christianity, won't give you a biblical pov. You're only getting a warped view of scripture. Ask questions, be sincere, and then if you choose to turn down the free gift of eternal life, at least you'll know what the bible really says. Not what a clueless(about salvation) blog writing atheist says.

I find it interesting to hear the reasons and arguments that lead to people abandoning their faith and no longer labelling themselves as a follower of a particular religion.
I think there's something to be learned from them and their reasons shouldn't be dismissed.

If human beings are not morally worthy of whatever “salvation” is, then Jesus’s saving of humanity is simply not a praiseworthy action at all. Either it’s moral to save human beings, or it isn’t. Either God’s original anger at humans for failing to live up to impossibly inhuman demands is righteous, or Jesus’ scheme for salvation is, but it cannot be both.

Interested in your thoughts on this

Two Simple reasons why such folks do this - leave the faith:

First, they were never saved to begin with but only thought they were

Second, they are actually saved but are in the midst of a crisis in faith that God will cure in due time and as such - the falling is merely temporary till the Good Shepherd returns them to the fold.

So Stardust, which one are you or are you one of these or merely curious?
-

No. What don't you understand about what I wrote? God alone is worthy. His grace is not given to us because we are worthy.
This is Christianity 101.

RickD wrote:

Stardust wrote:

RickD wrote:

Stardust wrote:Are humans beings worthy of salvation or not?

No. This is one of the most basic things about the Christian faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Salvation is by God's grace. And grace is defined as:

2.
(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

I didn't ask are we worthy of it by ourselves, i asked are we worthy of it at all?

No. What don't you understand about what I wrote? God alone is worthy. His grace is not given to us because we are worthy.
This is Christianity 101.

And please stop trying to post quotes from atheist blogs. If you're truly interested in what Christians believe, ask us. Reading a blog by an atheist who claims he used to be a Christian, but can't even grasp the basics of Christianity, won't give you a biblical pov. You're only getting a warped view of scripture. Ask questions, be sincere, and then if you choose to turn down the free gift of eternal life, at least you'll know what the bible really says. Not what a clueless(about salvation) blog writing atheist says.

Stardust wrote:

No. What don't you understand about what I wrote? God alone is worthy. His grace is not given to us because we are worthy.
This is Christianity 101.

If human beings are not morally worthy of whatever “salvation” is, then Jesus’s saving of humanity is simply not a praiseworthy action at all. Either it’s moral to save human beings, or it isn’t. Either God’s original anger at humans for failing to live up to impossibly inhuman demands is righteous, or Jesus’ scheme for salvation is, but it cannot be both.
So which is it?

This claim is quickly followed up by the promise of a path to salvation: simply believe the correct ideology, and do your best to keep believing in it, and somehow now you’re now acceptable and forgiven, despite still being no less sinful than before.

simply believe the correct ideology

and do your best to keep believing in it

RickD wrote:While you're contemplating that, I want to address this from the blog you linked:

This claim is quickly followed up by the promise of a path to salvation: simply believe the correct ideology, and do your best to keep believing in it, and somehow now you’re now acceptable and forgiven, despite still being no less sinful than before.

If the blog author believes this, I can see why he turned away from this. It's not an accurate description of the biblical plan of salvation. In fact, what the author thinks is biblical salvation, is actually nothing more than another man-made works based salvation.

First:

simply believe the correct ideology

It's not about believing an ideology. It's about trusting Christ for salvation.

Next:

and do your best to keep believing in it

Salvation is not about "doing our best" of anything. Salvation is about who Christ is, and what He has done.

Look at john 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Whosoever believes/trust Christ for salvation, at that moment, has eternal life. It doesn't say, "whoever believes, and does his best...".

The author commits a simple straw man fallacy. Instead of dealing with what the bible actually says regarding salvation, he inserts his straw man view of salvation, and refutes that.