Evidence for God from Science

I have given some thought on the problem of Genesis 1 and 2, not only the issue with modern science but the apparent differences in both.

Genesis 1 is the account of the creation of the world and I noticed two interesting points in regards to life on the planet:
1- God commands that the Earth bring forth plant life and animal life
2- God created Man and Women in His Image.

Now, we can view this implicit difference in a couple of ways:
Animals and vegetation were brought forth from the earth bu divine command BUT not created as is by God, the passages say that God made the beast after their own kind BUT only after the command for the Earth to bring forth those beasts.

Man MAY have been created during that process too because there is no SINGLE event in which God commands man into being, but in Genesis 1:26 is where God comments that Man will be made in His own Image.
This COULD mean the divine act of creation of man OR it could mean that man, which existed before, would now be made in His image.

Now, I think the language shows enough "flexibility" in its poetic wording that it COULD mean that Man was brought forth by the Earth and then made in God's image.
The issue some will say is that the writer says this:
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

BUt lets not forget that after commanding the earth to bring forth the animals, the writers also says this:
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so. 25 God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind...

So I am not sure if we can talk the passage of God creating Man and Woman as to mean that they were created directly by God in as much as the passage before comments that God made the beats also EVEN though it stats off with the divine command for the Earth to bring forth the animals.


Just food for thought....

Next post I will address Genesis 2

The interesting thing about Genesis 2 is that it has what appears to be a different creation story BUT that really isn't the case because Genesis 2 is not really about the creation of the world.
It is about the creation and events in ONE particular place in the world, the Garden IN Eden.
It starts off with the comment that Man was created BEFORE anything else:
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. 5 Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Here we have the statement that MAN was formed from the ground by God DIRECTLY and that God breathed life into Man, something that does NOT happen to any other living creature.
The it states that God placed this specific man in a specific Place:

The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

This place was formed By God ( as opposed to Genesis 1 in which the earth brought forth vegetation, albeit by Divine Command) and had two VERY SPECIAL features:
The tree of life and the tree of knowledge.

Man of course was warned NOT to either from the tree of knowledge AND we find out later that he had also not eaten from the Tree of life (Genesis 3:22).

Then we find that God creates animals to keep Man company and finally created Woman to be his full time companion when it is clear that He needs more than mere animal companionship.

Woman is then created VIA divine process BUT from Man as opposed to Man who was created from the earth and formed directly by God.

We are told that Man and woman felt no shame and have no notion of shame over the fact that they were naked ( this seems to illustrate to us the innocence of them and the naturalness of nudity in Eden).

Of course youknowwho comes along and screws everything up, but HOW?

The individual we later come to know as The Satan, in the form of a serpent ( or dragon...) tempts Man and Woman ( woman first) with the one thing that becomes the main issue with ALL mankind from then on:
The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate...

The temptation to be LIKE GOD was too much for Woman and she ate to be like God.
Man,presumably, just ate because woman gave him the fruit ( on a lighter side, Woman must have been some kind of sexy for Man to do what she told him even though he knew it was bad...nice to know it isn't just us nowadays eh?).

Of course they eat and BAM, they understand they are naked and feel ashamed and decided to cover themselves.

This is a very interesting part because it shows that the innocence of their nudity was the first thing they LOST with the knowledge of Good and bad, not their remorse of doing the ONE thing God prohibited them to do, NO not that, they were ashamed because they were naked !

God of course knows about this and pays them a visit and they are banished from the Garden of Eden and no human is ever allowed back again, but they were banished NOT because they ate and felt shame but because:

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

Their banishment was to ensure they would NOT live forever, that they would die (eventually) and that no human would ever live forever.

What we know about the events in regards to Adam and Eve is what happened and where BUT not when and how long.
We do NOT know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden, not how long they wandered the world before Cain was born.

We do know that, according to Genesis 2, the garden and Man came to be BEFORE all other creation.
We also know that AFTER they left the Garden and after Cain killed Abel and was banished that Cain feared that people would kill him ( presumably either because of what he did or because he was a "vagrant and wanderer".) We also know that Cain took/had a wife and took her with him to an established land (Nod) where they prospered ( has another kid and built a city).
I think we may be safe to presume that Cain did not build a city (Enoch) by himself so it may also be safe to presume that he had help, ie: other people that were with there or came later.


What does that, POSSIBLY, tell us?

It seems that there may have been other people around besides Adam and Eve's family.

PaulSacramento wrote:What we know about the events in regards to Adam and Eve is what happened and where BUT not when and how long.
We do NOT know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden, not how long they wandered the world before Cain was born.

We do know that, according to Genesis 2, the garden and Man came to be BEFORE all other creation.
We also know that AFTER they left the Garden and after Cain killed Abel and was banished that Cain feared that people would kill him ( presumably either because of what he did or because he was a "vagrant and wanderer".) We also know that Cain took/had a wife and took her with him to an established land (Nod) where they prospered ( has another kid and built a city).
I think we may be safe to presume that Cain did not build a city (Enoch) by himself so it may also be safe to presume that he had help, ie: other people that were with there or came later.


What does that, POSSIBLY, tell us?

It seems that there may have been other people around besides Adam and Eve's family.

It is possible and one theory out of several between Gen 1 and 2 timeline.
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The one thing that we do know is that Genesis 1 and 2 are different and while some chalk it up to be two different creation stories that were "blended" in with each other, I think there is more than that.
I think that Genesis 1 is a general creation story and 2 is a specific one about Adam and Eve, two REAL people that were the first line of what wold be the Hebrew people.
I think that because the Hebrew people decedent DIRECTLY from Adam and Eve, that is why they were singled out (for a time) as God's special people and why the Son of God choose to be made flesh from one of them.
The "lineage chronology" in the bible then is not about humanity in general but the hebrew people in specific.

PaulSacramento wrote:The one thing that we do know is that Genesis 1 and 2 are different and while some chalk it up to be two different creation stories that were "blended" in with each other, I think there is more than that.
I think that Genesis 1 is a general creation story and 2 is a specific one about Adam and Eve, two REAL people that were the first line of what wold be the Hebrew people.
I think that because the Hebrew people decedent DIRECTLY from Adam and Eve, that is why they were singled out (for a time) as God's special people and why the Son of God choose to be made flesh from one of them.
The "lineage chronology" in the bible then is not about humanity in general but the hebrew people in specific.

It is also common usage of language style of the ancient people to make a statement and then go back a bit later to expand upon that statement. That appears to be so in these two chapters just as you pointed out. Eve is the mother of all living humans, that the bible does indicate.

Now the question comes and theories begin to abound, did Adam and Eve have children before the fall in a perfect condition?

Adam live 930 so therefore how many of those were in the Garden. After the fall Cain and Able were born and in that one can speculate that Adam lived in the Garden approx 700 to 800 years. How long with Eve - quite some time. One can theorize also that they had kids during that time and that after the fall is a record of how sin spread to all humanity through Adam as Romans 5 mentions and only concerns this and does not mention other possible offspring of Eve during their time in perfection of the Garden. All this is mere speculation. It is interesting to explore as long as we do not make dogma out of it. In my opinion, God just gives us what we need to know and leaves it at that concerning these two chapters - humanity fell into sin and it spread to all...
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I think in terms of dogma and doctrine, the only real issue is the whole "spreading of sin" through all of humanity and "death entering the world" thing from Romans

PaulSacramento wrote:I think in terms of dogma and doctrine, the only real issue is the whole "spreading of sin" through all of humanity and "death entering the world" thing from Romans

That's true and we can go from Satisfaction Theory, to Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory, Repayment Theory, Christ the Victor theory all from Romans 5 on what sin is and how it spread - yikes! can of worms to be sure

However, it is possible that Adam and Eve had children before the fall and after the fall the focus is on sin spreading and how it corrupted all. Interesting idea. worthy of discussion and debate.
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B. W. wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I think in terms of dogma and doctrine, the only real issue is the whole "spreading of sin" through all of humanity and "death entering the world" thing from Romans

That's true and we can go from Satisfaction Theory, to Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory, Repayment Theory, Christ the Victor theory all from Romans 5 on what sin is and how it spread - yikes! can of worms to be sure

However, it is possible that Adam and Eve had children before the fall and after the fall the focus is on sin spreading and how it corrupted all. Interesting idea. worthy of discussion and debate.
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I am not sure where we can get the idea of children before the fall...

PaulSacramento wrote:

B. W. wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I think in terms of dogma and doctrine, the only real issue is the whole "spreading of sin" through all of humanity and "death entering the world" thing from Romans

That's true and we can go from Satisfaction Theory, to Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory, Repayment Theory, Christ the Victor theory all from Romans 5 on what sin is and how it spread - yikes! can of worms to be sure

However, it is possible that Adam and Eve had children before the fall and after the fall the focus is on sin spreading and how it corrupted all. Interesting idea. worthy of discussion and debate.
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I am not sure where we can get the idea of children before the fall...

It is just a theory I heard someone postulate on some Christian late night TV show several years ago. I do not agree with it but it was interesting discussion from what I can remember as it involved various Christian themed creation theories folks had through the centuries ... on a historical bases.
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Ah, I see.

I don't agree that they had any kids prior to the expulsion from The Garden.

I know that Genesis doesn't explicitly say that there were other people around BUt, IMO, it is implied because Adam and Eve, according to Genesis, only have more kids AFTER Cain is banished.
Cain has a wife either before the banishment or finds one in Nod ( I think he finds one in Nod because there is no mention of him leaving with her when he was banished).

I think the mention that He built a city is important because he quite obviously couldn't have done it on his own.

I've just been re-reading Genesis 1: 27 and 28 -- male and female have been created and told to be fruitful and multiply and to subdue the earth. The next chapter goes into More Detail. Marriage is introduced between Adam and Eve. Their punishment is pronounced in Ch 3 -- for women with conception and child birth vs 16
Chapter 4 -- vs 3 -- 'And in the process of time it came to pass" no idea of How long a time -- Adam and Eve apparently had More children -- some who'd gone to other parts of Eden -- the land of Nod? Cause that's where Cain went after he'd killed Abel and found a wife.
Chapter 5 presents the geneology of Adam. vs 3 - 5 -- He lived 930 years. vs 3 -- Seth was born when Adam was 130 -- Cain was born 1st and the Abel - no time frame given.

But we're only told about Cain, Abel and Seth.
Who inhabited Nod? It would have had to have been other children from Adam and Eve. Their sons and daughters would have been attracted to each other and mated and built up the population of Nod. But back Then the world was a Whole lot different than Now.

Try this read Genesis 1 as in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth perfect but before God created this world there was a former world on this earth that Lucifer ruled over from Eden but when Lucifer and a third of the angels and the pre-adamites rebelled against God judgment was poured out in which God flooded both the heavens and the earth in water and blocked out the heavens and sunlight but God is restoring the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1.

1.You'll notice the heavens and the earth are flooded and no sunlight or star light Jeremiah 4:23-28.2.God divides these waters and places water both above the earth's atmosphere in the heaven( outerspace- comets)but also keeps water below the earth's atmosphere also evidence the earth is flooded from Lucifer's flood which was much much more severe than Noah's flood 2nd Peter 3:3-7.3.He created the plants,animals,life,etc after their kind or after his kind which is referring to the life that lived in the former world that perished.4He creates man in his image and creates a garden of Eden for him which infuriates Lucifer who rebelled against God before God restores the earth and creates this world in Genesis1.5.He tells Adam and Eve to replenish the earth but also tells Noah and 7 other people to replenish the earth also the same word for Adam and Eve and after Noah's flood too - replenish.

abelcainsbrother wrote:Try this read Genesis 1 as in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth perfect but before God created this world there was a former world on this earth that Lucifer ruled over from Eden but when Lucifer and a third of the angels and the pre-adamites rebelled against God judgment was poured out in which God flooded both the heavens and the earth in water and blocked out the heavens and sunlight but God is restoring the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1.

1.You'll notice the heavens and the earth are flooded and no sunlight or star light Jeremiah 4:23-28.2.God divides these waters and places water both above the earth's atmosphere in the heaven( outerspace- comets)but also keeps water below the earth's atmosphere also evidence the earth is flooded from Lucifer's flood which was much much more severe than Noah's flood 2nd Peter 3:3-7.3.He created the plants,animals,life,etc after their kind or after his kind which is referring to the life that lived in the former world that perished.4He creates man in his image and creates a garden of Eden for him which infuriates Lucifer who rebelled against God before God restores the earth and creates this world in Genesis1.5.He tells Adam and Eve to replenish the earth but also tells Noah and 7 other people to replenish the earth also the same word for Adam and Eve and after Noah's flood too - replenish.

You do realize the Gnosticism in your view, right?