Evidence for God from Science

Kenny wrote:Once you get to Heaven, what will stop you from wanting to sin?

Ken

Jac3510 wrote:

Kenny wrote:Once you get to Heaven, what will stop you from wanting to sin?

Ken

The vision of and union with God.

Jac3510 wrote:No

Jac3510 wrote:

Kenny wrote:Once you get to Heaven, what will stop you from wanting to sin?

Ken

The vision of and union with God.

• "I consider it somewhat uncertain territory to enter into talk of spiritual matters re: the afterlife." In particular, what it looks like and how it all works. But, we do read about such matters in splatters here and there in Jesus' words, Paul's and others.
• "It seems to me that after this life, perhaps due to the nature of things, that there is no or very limited/no ability for us to change something deep in who we are."
• "Those who perish without Christ are kind of locked into their decision after death. There is no turning back. Perhaps due to the nature of the spiritual world? Therefore at death, if we are in rebellion against God, such rebellion becomes an eternal rebellion."

• The Conflict of Two Natures
  14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold [a]into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
  
  21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [c]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [d]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [e]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [f]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Kurieuo wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:

Kenny wrote:Once you get to Heaven, what will stop you from wanting to sin?

Ken

The vision of and union with God.

Hi Kenny,

That is actually really good question for a Christian to explore.
I often see Christians ask this question so...

Jac is right of course, but what does that look like unpacked in layman terms?
That is where the complications and perhaps theological disagreement here or there might come in.

I wrote elsewhere a response to Starhunter on the question of fairness and God's eternally punishing someone for their temporary sin. Some points in my response there is also quite relevant I feel to your question here. So please read at your leisure.

Here is my own more specific theologising on the matter...

Firstly, drawing from my other response, some relevant points that I see include:

• "I consider it somewhat uncertain territory to enter into talk of spiritual matters re: the afterlife." In particular, what it looks like and how it all works. But, we do read about such matters in splatters here and there in Jesus' words, Paul's and others.
• "It seems to me that after this life, perhaps due to the nature of things, that there is no or very limited/no ability for us to change something deep in who we are."
• "Those who perish without Christ are kind of locked into their decision after death. There is no turning back. Perhaps due to the nature of the spiritual world? Therefore at death, if we are in rebellion against God, such rebellion becomes an eternal rebellion."

On that last point, I would similarly reason that those who do believe in Christ, that Christ has promised to complete a good work within them.
When we come to Christ it is the desire of our most inner selves to be like Christ. We want what God desires.

Yet, there is still an issue in this life that we live.
Namely, this world that we find ourselves in and our physical weaknesses.
Paul talks of the war within us after we come to Christ in Romans 7:

• The Conflict of Two Natures
  14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold [a]into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
  
  21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [c]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [d]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [e]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [f]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

In this world, our bodies are weak.
We become drained and tired, hot and bothered, focused upon experiential pleasures (i.e., sexual pleasure, drunkenness, other substance abuse, etc).
We can further be taken advantage of, hurt, hated and abused in all matter of fashion.
It is not a perfect world, but I believe it is generally a good world...
especially for the purpose of allowing us to be shaped and transformed based upon our decisions -- for better or worse.

A spiritual world however, wherein such things are not actually possible and because we are in the midst of God who is the perfect end of all our desire, this would I think remove any possibility of sin.

To use an analogy, the question of what will stop you from sinning in the midst of God, is like asking what will stop darkness in the immediate presence of the Sun?
It is just the nature of things that neither is not possible.

In our current world, we have a bit of time to change over and over and develop who we are.
This does not appear to be the case in the hereafter.

Re: our union with God which I kind of see as a like-mindedness and perfect love for one another.
Honestly, I really haven't explored what this might theologically look like. Perhaps if Jac has time he could elaborate further.
But, I feel the analogy of the Sun is perhaps illustrates what this might look like.

Again, obviously it is impossible to have darkness found near the Sun.
The Sun lights everything up such that darkness cannot dwell in its presence.
Similarly, I think, being in God's direct and immediate presence will light us all up.
Such a union means sin cannot dwell in God's presence.

Starhunter wrote:Adam and Eve, I believe were united with God in Eden, if not, their departure from Him would not be a sin, for the Bible says "whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

In another text it says "the just (righteous) shall live by faith." Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world by faith.

In heaven you don't have to hope for anything, because hope is fulfilled, but we still live by faith.

When Adam and Eve ceased to live by faith, they had fallen into sin.

Living by faith has a lot to do with loyalty, not a forced working type thing, but a natural loyalty, the kind that children and animals display. It's not a conscious thing, it's just love.

If it is not in our character to rebel against God, which can be done by grace, then we will never be dishonest or disloyal to Christ. As said in other posts, the conditions we live under on earth, cause us to be weak, but no matter how weak we are nothing can stop us from loving.

The only thing we take unchanged to heaven is our character, everything else changes.
So how do we not sin in heaven? By loving Christ on earth first, by being faithful and repentant when we make mistakes.

Often specific trials will repeat themselves, until we have overcome the error. The Holy Spirit convicts and tests, allows trials and gives victory and comforts, over and over again on different levels that we are not familiar with, and the road gets steeper, until we gain the victory. This is the experience of a true Christian.

The last book in the Bible continually mentions overcoming. Why is it so important? One day we will see the wisdom in God allowing us to overcome petty selfish traits in our personalities, weaknesses of character, to make us patient, trusting, honorable people. True greatness will be in high esteem in heaven.

John the Baptist said "behold the lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world" and in another scripture it says "He will save His people from their sins." Jesus never said that He would save sinners in their sins, but from them.

If their is no victory over sin, then the Christian life is a farce, and life on earth a waste of time. But Christ as a Savior is only a reality if He gains victories over sin in us. It is not a question of how much have we overcome, but are we overcoming by consenting to have His will over ours. Everyone can have that experience by living by faith.

Sin does not have to be compulsory, it is powerful, but Christ is the strong one here. People wonder what will prevent us from sinning in heaven, and they are so sure about the power of sin, that they make up things like our choices will be removed or we will have some kind of clamp on us. That will never be the case, because Christ died in behalf of the freedom of our will power. He will never remove that power of choice.

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:

Kenny wrote:Once you get to Heaven, what will stop you from wanting to sin?

Ken

The vision of and union with God.

Hi Kenny,

That is actually really good question for a Christian to explore.
I often see Christians ask this question so...

Jac is right of course, but what does that look like unpacked in layman terms?
That is where the complications and perhaps theological disagreement here or there might come in.

I wrote elsewhere a response to Starhunter on the question of fairness and God's eternally punishing someone for their temporary sin. Some points in my response there is also quite relevant I feel to your question here. So please read at your leisure.

Here is my own more specific theologising on the matter...

Firstly, drawing from my other response, some relevant points that I see include:

• "I consider it somewhat uncertain territory to enter into talk of spiritual matters re: the afterlife." In particular, what it looks like and how it all works. But, we do read about such matters in splatters here and there in Jesus' words, Paul's and others.
• "It seems to me that after this life, perhaps due to the nature of things, that there is no or very limited/no ability for us to change something deep in who we are."
• "Those who perish without Christ are kind of locked into their decision after death. There is no turning back. Perhaps due to the nature of the spiritual world? Therefore at death, if we are in rebellion against God, such rebellion becomes an eternal rebellion."

On that last point, I would similarly reason that those who do believe in Christ, that Christ has promised to complete a good work within them.
When we come to Christ it is the desire of our most inner selves to be like Christ. We want what God desires.

Yet, there is still an issue in this life that we live.
Namely, this world that we find ourselves in and our physical weaknesses.
Paul talks of the war within us after we come to Christ in Romans 7:

• The Conflict of Two Natures
  14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold [a]into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
  
  21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [c]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [d]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [e]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [f]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

In this world, our bodies are weak.
We become drained and tired, hot and bothered, focused upon experiential pleasures (i.e., sexual pleasure, drunkenness, other substance abuse, etc).
We can further be taken advantage of, hurt, hated and abused in all matter of fashion.
It is not a perfect world, but I believe it is generally a good world...
especially for the purpose of allowing us to be shaped and transformed based upon our decisions -- for better or worse.

A spiritual world however, wherein such things are not actually possible and because we are in the midst of God who is the perfect end of all our desire, this would I think remove any possibility of sin.

To use an analogy, the question of what will stop you from sinning in the midst of God, is like asking what will stop darkness in the immediate presence of the Sun?
It is just the nature of things that neither is not possible.

In our current world, we have a bit of time to change over and over and develop who we are.
This does not appear to be the case in the hereafter.

Re: our union with God which I kind of see as a like-mindedness and perfect love for one another.
Honestly, I really haven't explored what this might theologically look like. Perhaps if Jac has time he could elaborate further.
But, I feel the analogy of the Sun is perhaps illustrates what this might look like.

Again, obviously it is impossible to have darkness found near the Sun.
The Sun lights everything up such that darkness cannot dwell in its presence.
Similarly, I think, being in God's direct and immediate presence will light us all up.
Such a union means sin cannot dwell in God's presence.

So if I understand you correctly, while in your physical bodies you have the option/freewill, to change who you are, but once in the spiritual bodies; you will remain as you are and change will no longer be an option. This being different than Adam and Eve because they still had the option/freewill to change as they were in the physical world.
Because you are in the spiritual world without the option to change, along with the ever presence of God, sinning impossible once you get into Heaven. Is this correct?

Yes, something like that.

Obviously, my conclusions are drawn from Scripture and somewhat just reflecting upon how things might work.
As you're asking a Christian question I can obviously respond in kind.

Say God created Adam and Eve like angels, then matters would be very different for them.
It seems the moment Satan desired to take God's place was the moment he was cast out.
No second chances? Why? Well perhaps it's just how things work.
Of course this is all special revelation and unproved, but it is nonetheless a true Christian response.

Why might this be the case that the spiritual world works in a more permanent way?
Again, just postulating...
Our world is dimensional and based upon time -- not just causal temporality but some reason physical dimension of time.
This dimension may not exist in an immaterial world i.e., spiritual world.
As such, how can one take back their decisions?

Possibly there is movability by God's grace.
Yet, then add in the Sun analogy that darkness cannot exist in its direct presence.
Likewise I think it reasonable to think similarly that sin cannot exist in God's direct presence.

This is one reason I believe people who do not have Christ, are forced out of heaven (in other words separated from God's presence as much as possible).
Without Christ, they bear the fullness of God's glory and righteousness on their own back, such that they cannot bear God, fear God and even resent.
Of course, I'm just theologising here. But I don't mind doing that.

• To find the cause, then, of this obstinacy, it must be borne in mind that the appetitive power is in all things proportioned to the apprehensive, whereby it is moved, as the movable by its mover. For the sensitive appetite seeks a particular good; while the will seeks the universal good, as was said above (Question 59, Article 1); as also the sense apprehends particular objects, while the intellect considers universals. Now the angel's apprehension differs from man's in this respect, that the angel by his intellect apprehends immovably, as we apprehend immovably first principles which are the object of the habit of "intelligence"; whereas man by his reason apprehends movably, passing from one consideration to another; and having the way open by which he may proceed to either of two opposites. Consequently man's will adheres to a thing movably, and with the power of forsaking it and of clinging to the opposite; whereas the angel's will adheres fixedly and immovably. Therefore, if his will be considered before its adhesion, it can freely adhere either to this or to its opposite (namely, in such things as he does not will naturally); but after he has once adhered, he clings immovably. So it is customary to say that man's free-will is flexible to the opposite both before and after choice; but the angel's free-will is flexible either opposite before the choice, but not after. Therefore the good angels who adhered to justice, were confirmed therein; whereas the wicked ones, sinning, are obstinate in sin. Later on we shall treat of the obstinacy of men who are damned (SP, 98, 1, 2).

Jac3510 wrote:Kurieuo . . . a modern day Aquinas!

cf . . .

• To find the cause, then, of this obstinacy, it must be borne in mind that the appetitive power is in all things proportioned to the apprehensive, whereby it is moved, as the movable by its mover. For the sensitive appetite seeks a particular good; while the will seeks the universal good, as was said above (Question 59, Article 1); as also the sense apprehends particular objects, while the intellect considers universals. Now the angel's apprehension differs from man's in this respect, that the angel by his intellect apprehends immovably, as we apprehend immovably first principles which are the object of the habit of "intelligence"; whereas man by his reason apprehends movably, passing from one consideration to another; and having the way open by which he may proceed to either of two opposites. Consequently man's will adheres to a thing movably, and with the power of forsaking it and of clinging to the opposite; whereas the angel's will adheres fixedly and immovably. Therefore, if his will be considered before its adhesion, it can freely adhere either to this or to its opposite (namely, in such things as he does not will naturally); but after he has once adhered, he clings immovably. So it is customary to say that man's free-will is flexible to the opposite both before and after choice; but the angel's free-will is flexible either opposite before the choice, but not after. Therefore the good angels who adhered to justice, were confirmed therein; whereas the wicked ones, sinning, are obstinate in sin. Later on we shall treat of the obstinacy of men who are damned (SP, 98, 1, 2).

Obviously, that't not precisely K's argument, but I think it's very consistent with what he's suggesting here.

Jac wrote:edit2:

K, I'd be interested in your take on this.

Kenny wrote:Once you get to Heaven, what will stop you from wanting to sin?

Ken

Kenny wrote: So if I understand you correctly, the conditions people live under on Earth causes them to be weak, but in Heaven; even though you will still have the option/freewill to sin, you have the will power to remain sinless. Is that correct?

driven to "serve Him" so that sin is no longer relevant