Must Jesus be God..

[Lonewolf]

Here's an honest question that I have been struggling to resolve in my heart, because lately I have been like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind on the matter. As I have stated before, I have always been a Christian, first of the Catholic faith upbringing, and since my mid-teens as a born again Christian -granted that I went astray and for many years I strayed from fellowship with a congregation; even so, I have always believed Christ Jesus to be our one and only sole redeemer, and no one, absolutely no one comes to the father unless by Him. I have always believed our Lord Jesus Christ to be God in the flesh., God with us (Emmanuel), and that His perfect atonement is made perfect being that He is God and thus the perfect sacrifice. I have even argued and firmly stated (versus others) that if Jesus Christ is not God, then the atonement cannot be perfect, for only a perfect being can redeem the unperfect. But lately, because of my inquiring mind, and the habit that I have of reading everything that I can get my eyes on pertaining to Christian theology of all sorts, I have come across those teachings and readings that talk about the Oneness of God, and that Jesus even though God's Son, He is nevertheless begotten, and not necessarily God Himself without the Father. Some very convincing points I have read and talked about with some, so now I find myself a little shaken in my stance, therefore I ask the following question in order to hopefully find some answers that will help me in my struggle as a man of little faith.

Q: Is it necessary for Jesus Christ to be God in order for the atonement to be valid?

[RickD]

Q: Is it necessary for Jesus Christ to be God in order for the atonement to be valid?

Absolutely, yes. Any other Jesus is a false Christ.

[Byblos]

Q: Is it necessary for Jesus Christ to be God in order for the atonement to be valid?

Ask yourself this, what's the difference between Jesus and all other prophets that came before him, from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to Moses? Why did Jesus succeed when they didn't?

[Lonewolf]

Yeah well, I was asking you., Short answers so far, but not a lot of meat on the bone.

[RickD]

Yeah well, I was asking you., Short answers so far, but not a lot of meat on the bone.

You answered your own question in your original post.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Short answers so far, but not a lot of meat on the bone.

Because the question is...uh...very basic (I'm struggling to be polite ) and is normally asked by, uh...those who don't know about Christianity, or those who want to trap Christians. If you read your Bible like I've often told you to, you'll see that Jesus Himself claimed to be God.

This isn't rocket surgery, it's basic Christianity.

FL

[Lonewolf]

Short answers so far, but not a lot of meat on the bone.

Because the question is...uh...very basic (I'm struggling to be polite ) and is normally asked by, uh...those who don't know about Christianity, or those who want to trap Christians. If you read your Bible like I've often told you to, you'll see that Jesus Himself claimed to be God.

This isn't rocket surgery, it's basic Christianity.

FL

You know that's the problem with your responses, you answer as if everyone should be at the genius level that you're in. Basic Christianity is not as basic as you like to understand it, if it was, then we would not have the divisions and diff thoughts of understanding that we're faced with in this age. Did you not understand the part about my whole life having believed Jesus to be God? Now please, stop with the part about those wishing to trap Christianity and don't get all defensive about it, I'm asking, so is it wrong to ask for "clarification?" Now, point to me the scriptures where Jesus Himself unquestionably claims to be God?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You know that's the problem with your responses, you answer as if everyone should be at the genius level that you're in.

You must be the only one here who considers me a genius I'm sure you're being sarcastic because I don't believe anyone can be that blind.

Basic Christianity is not as basic as you like to understand it, if it was, then we would not have the divisions and diff thoughts of understanding that we're faced with in this age.

Wrong. Basic Christianity is still basic. People who decide to eliminate Hell from the Scriptures, and to assume the Church is the new Israel, and to question Jesus' divinity are the ones who are corrupting Christianity and confusing the simple message. Does the shoe fit, Cinderella Lonewolf?

Did you not understand the part about my whole life having believed Jesus to be God?

I read it. Now, why the change? What is going on in your life to make you doubt this very basic tenet of Christianity?

I'm asking, so is it wrong to ask for "clarification?"

I'm not being defensive here; and it isn't wrong for you to ask for clarification.

Now, point to me the scriptures where Jesus Himself unquestionably claims to be God?

No. I won't do that. I don't think I have enough credibility with you, so I'll let someone else do that.

FL

[LittleHamster]

I detect a subtle note of discontent in this thread. Allow me to interject with an allegory......

There was a father who owned a large mansion. The father had many children that were living in that mansion. Oh no ! the kids are out of control and trash the mansion ! They do many millions of dollars damage to that mansion.

Now, the father looks at the mansion and thinks "These children can never pay for that damage, so I am going to present myself to them (in human form) and appear to them in the lounge room". Then I will say to them "I am going to pay for your debts because you kids will never be able to pay for what you have done".


Thus, the debt has been paid. The only thing the kids need to do is accept that the debt has been paid and try and not trash the house anymore (and showing some darn gratitude might help people).

So I guess the answer to your question Lonewolf, is that it would be that no one else could pay the debt but only the father can do that. If another child appeared in the lounge room (remember, the children have no money - i.e., no authority) and said "I am going to pay for all your debts", it would not work as the child would be a false payee (i.e., a false Christ). Only Jesus Christ can pay for our sinful debts because he is God in the flesh and even proved that by showing he had authority over all things in heaven and earth - and no one else.

The important point in all this is that one must acknowledge and accept that the father has paid the debt though his incarnation as Jesus Christ !

If we go back to the allegory and wonder what would happen if the children did not accept that the father paid for the damage and keep trashing the place. What do you reckon the father is going to do to those kids ?



So there you go ! Accept it and you are saved ! Yay !

[Lonewolf]

You know that's the problem with your responses, you answer as if everyone should be at the genius level that you're in.

You must be the only one here who considers me a genius I'm sure you're being sarcastic because I don't believe anyone can be that blind.

Basic Christianity is not as basic as you like to understand it, if it was, then we would not have the divisions and diff thoughts of understanding that we're faced with in this age.

Wrong. Basic Christianity is still basic. People who decide to eliminate Hell from the Scriptures, and to assume the Church is the new Israel, and to question Jesus' divinity are the ones who are corrupting Christianity and confusing the simple message. Does the shoe fit, Cinderella Lonewolf?

Did you not understand the part about my whole life having believed Jesus to be God?

I read it. Now, why the change? What is going on in your life to make you doubt this very basic tenet of Christianity?

I'm asking, so is it wrong to ask for "clarification?"

I'm not being defensive here; and it isn't wrong for you to ask for clarification.

Now, point to me the scriptures where Jesus Himself unquestionably claims to be God?

No. I won't do that. I don't think I have enough credibility with you, so I'll let someone else do that.

FL

Quite the opposite, I don't consider you much other than for arguments sake, therefore I asked from you to show me the indisputable scripture and then maybe, just maybe your credibility will make it's mark on me ~> because so far, I've yet to feel the humbleness in your faith!

[Lonewolf]

I detect a subtle note of discontent in this thread. Allow me to interject with an allegory......

There was a father who owned a large mansion. The father had many children that were living in that mansion. Oh no ! the kids are out of control and trash the mansion ! They do many millions of dollars damage to that mansion.

Now, the father looks at the mansion and thinks "These children can never pay for that damage, so I am going to present myself to them (in human form) and appear to them in the lounge room". Then I will say to them "I am going to pay for your debts because you kids will never be able to pay for what you have done".


Thus, the debt has been paid. The only thing the kids need to do is accept that the debt has been paid and try and not trash the house anymore (and showing some darn gratitude might help people).

So I guess the answer to your question Lonewolf, is that it would be that no one else could pay the debt but only the father can do that. If another child appeared in the lounge room (remember, the children have no money - i.e., no authority) and said "I am going to pay for all your debts", it would not work as the child would be a false payee (i.e., a false Christ). Only Jesus Christ can pay for our sinful debts because he is God in the flesh and even proved that by showing he had authority over all things in heaven and earth - and no one else.

The important point in all this is that one must acknowledge and accept that the father has paid the debt though his incarnation as Jesus Christ !

If we go back to the allegory and wonder what would happen if the children did not accept that the father paid for the damage and keep trashing the place. What do you reckon the father is going to do to those kids ?



So there you go ! Accept it and you are saved ! Yay !

Thank you, Lil' Hamster., you faith indeed is a basic one.

[LittleHamster]

Thank you, Lil' Hamster., you faith indeed is a basic one.

No problem Lonewolf, I do have lots of basic faith indeed and a whole lot of direct knowledge given to me by the holy spirit too.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Quite the opposite, I don't consider you much other than for arguments sake, therefore I asked from you to show me the indisputable scripture and then maybe, just maybe your credibility will make it's mark on me ~> because so far, I've yet to feel the humbleness in your faith!

You are quite funny!

I'm not going to do the work for you, so if no one gives you specific passages in answer to your question, you'll have to continue drifting without a compass or an anchor.

You might want to consider getting yourself a good concordance, as well as a topical dictionary and a Bible dictionary. These are the most basic of tools for the curious Christian. They cost very little and can be purchased at any Christian bookstore, or on www.christianbook.com

You'll retain more if you do the research yourself. Good luck.

FL

[RickD]

I'm not going to do your homework for you, and go searching for bible verses where Jesus says he is God. But, maybe this will help:
http://www.apologeticsguy.com/2012/01/d ... e-was-god/

[1over137]

From Hebrews 9-10

Redemption Through the Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,[e] then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify[f] for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our[g] conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.[h] 16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ[j] had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

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Have you found your answer there?