Evidence for God from Science

It seems to me that according to the bible and christian logic, God purposely created a world where he knew humans would suffer tremendous evil and suffering. God created the world, created Adam and Eve knowing full well they would sin, and knew it would bring evil into the world because...thats what he decided the punishment would be I guess. So God created Adam and Eve, knew they would disobey them before he created them, and then when they did he punished them and all humanity from that point forth with evil, pain, and suffering. So what was the plan here; what was God trying to accomplish as you understand it?

Surely God can create and choose not to foresee what the future might hold for that creation. So He created Adam and Eve but chose to interact with them on a day to day basis without foreseeing the future.

So God didnt know Adam and Eve would disobey him and eat the fruit he told them not to eat?

MAGSolo wrote:So God didnt know Adam and Eve would disobey him and eat the fruit he told them not to eat?

Yes, you are right. God didn't know and was surprised when they ate the fruit from the Tree. It surprised Him so much that He was hurt and banished them from the Garden out of spite.

FL

Stu wrote:Surely God can create and choose not to foresee what the future might hold for that creation. So He created Adam and Eve but chose to interact with them on a day to day basis without foreseeing the future.

I hope you are joking here Stu.

Silvertusk wrote:

Stu wrote:Surely God can create and choose not to foresee what the future might hold for that creation. So He created Adam and Eve but chose to interact with them on a day to day basis without foreseeing the future.

I hope you are joking here Stu.

No actually I'm not. God can do anything He wants to.

Stu wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:

Stu wrote:Surely God can create and choose not to foresee what the future might hold for that creation. So He created Adam and Eve but chose to interact with them on a day to day basis without foreseeing the future.

I hope you are joking here Stu.

No actually I'm not. God can do anything He wants to.

If God is omniscience, He cannot stop being omniscient. God can't do anything. He can't make a square triangle. He can't be both omniscient and not omniscient.

For God to stop being omniscient, that would mean He changes who He is. God cannot change.

MAGSolo, check your Private Message. Your Christian-stumping question is ready.

FL

MAGSolo wrote:It seems to me that according to the bible and christian logic, God purposely created a world where he knew humans would suffer tremendous evil and suffering. God created the world, created Adam and Eve knowing full well they would sin, and knew it would bring evil into the world because...thats what he decided the punishment would be I guess. So God created Adam and Eve, knew they would disobey them before he created them, and then when they did he punished them and all humanity from that point forth with evil, pain, and suffering. So what was the plan here; what was God trying to accomplish as you understand it?

There are two parts to your question:
One is the definition of "Omniscience", what does it really mean to say that God is All-Knowing.
The other issue is that you seem to be implying that God knowing all that was gonna happen and allowing it to happen ( all the pain and suffering humans go through) and punishing humans for something He knew they were gonna do is somehow "wrong".

First off, God's ability (for lack of a better word) to KNOW all that can be known does NOT mean that God knows things that can NOT be known.
I believe that God knew that humans COULD, because of their free will, choose to rebel, just as He knew that they could choose NOT to.
The issue for some is if God knows reverting then He should have know they WOULD rebel BUT that brings us to the whole definition of what it means to "know everything".
Not everyone agrees that God knows everything in the sense of knowing things that have NOT happened yet.
See, knowing what CAN happen is one thing and is in line with human free will BUT knowing what WILL happen leads you into the territory of "predestination" and the view that God predestined EVENTS to happen a certain way as opposed to the view that God planned a contingency in case free will lead humans astray. There is a big difference there.
You can not reconcile free will with predestination of events ( IMO, by the way, God can predestine PEOPLE as chosen for special tasks to deal with certain foreseeable events but God does not predestine those event to happen).

God created the world and set it in motion and sustains it constantly and consistently BUT God does NOT interfere in the free will OR the laws of nature that He put into place, that would make Him a God of contradictions and an illogical God, which would make Him NOT God.

So why would God ALLOW for free will knowing what there would be such a foreseeable mess that comes with it?
IMO, and this is not a "end justifies the means" view, is that the end result for humans and the world, to be one with God by CHOICE, would only be truly valuable if the knowledge of what it means NOT to be One with God was based on the experience of what it means to be outside of God's grace.
In short, being "like God" without have learned what it mans to NOT be "like God" but WANTING to be "like God", would not be in the best interest of Humans ( to say the very least).

MAGSolo wrote:It seems to me that according to the bible and christian logic, God purposely created a world where he knew humans would suffer tremendous evil and suffering. God created the world, created Adam and Eve knowing full well they would sin, and knew it would bring evil into the world because...thats what he decided the punishment would be I guess. So God created Adam and Eve, knew they would disobey them before he created them, and then when they did he punished them and all humanity from that point forth with evil, pain, and suffering. So what was the plan here; what was God trying to accomplish as you understand it?

How can it be just to deny free moral agency into creation?

You respond and say, so that none suffer...

How could such denial be correct for an Omnipotent God? Whom and what does he have to fear and if fear how can he still be God?

Do you not understand that through creating stress, the vine produces the best grapes as well as justly rids the corrupt?

In order to refine precious gold form ore, takes grinding and then heat to remove the dross. Such process removes impurities...

Therefore, what impurities reside in you, Mag, have you lied, stolen, betrayed, put others in your life and God on personal trials, who have you mocked and scorned? Have you exalted your self above all others? Are you the mirror image of goodness we all must submit too?

The refining processes began way long time ago as mentioned in Hebrews 11:3,5,8 etc... and boiled when Jesus came as mentioned in in John 3:16. This is alluded too in Rom 5:8,10 and 2 Co 5:19-21 so that the refining process completes. When it does, then there will be no more sin, sickness, death as such arrival is just to all beyond what you or I can fully fathom. And for such justice, Mag, do you still condemn God as unjust for allowing you the free use of reason and thought and even lets you mock him for it?
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MAGSolo wrote:It seems to me that according to the bible and christian logic, God purposely created a world where he knew humans would suffer tremendous evil and suffering. God created the world, created Adam and Eve knowing full well they would sin, and knew it would bring evil into the world because...thats what he decided the punishment would be I guess. So God created Adam and Eve, knew they would disobey them before he created them, and then when they did he punished them and all humanity from that point forth with evil, pain, and suffering. So what was the plan here; what was God trying to accomplish as you understand it?

God knew it could happen and he had a plan in place if it did happen.You are acting like death is bad but if you are saved by Jesus and have everlasting life then to die is to be present with the Lord,you just die and wake up in heaven and heaven is far better than this world we live in that we cannot even begin to understand how awesome it is going to be.I believe this is why God does not give much detail about heaven because we cannot imagine how awesome its going to be.

As for suffering we suffer because of sin and we are all guilty so we can't really blame God,plus God suffered as a man in this world just as we do actually way more than we do and all out of love for us and so no other god can even understand your pain like Jesus can as he was born into trouble and it only increased as he got older and started fulfilling his mission and that was to make a way for us to be saved,for all of those who would believe in him and he fulfilled it when he said "It is finished." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Oh6rRR56c

Also you're going to suffer anyway in this world Christian or not so that should not be an excuse to reject God as God is the cure for our sufferings and pain in this world.It won't always be like this for those who put their faith in Christ.Your mind cannot even comprehend how long eternity is and yet how long do you think you will live? 80-100? That is but a speck of time compared to eternity and where you will spend it.

MAGSolo wrote:It seems to me that according to the bible and christian logic, God purposely created a world where he knew humans would suffer tremendous evil and suffering. God created the world, created Adam and Eve knowing full well they would sin, and knew it would bring evil into the world because...thats what he decided the punishment would be I guess. So God created Adam and Eve, knew they would disobey them before he created them, and then when they did he punished them and all humanity from that point forth with evil, pain, and suffering. So what was the plan here; what was God trying to accomplish as you understand it?

We fall in love without thinking of the consequences, and we are imperfect, how much greater risk is that, but we still want the spontaneity of love, the risks of hurt and damage are eclipsed by it.
We have children and do not want to think about the fact that they could turn out to be mass murderers. We go ahead and have them despite the history of the world, why? because love is stronger than death, and somehow worth every risk and loss.

Why should not a perfect God be spontaneous and do His innermost desire which is to give all that He is, and has got, for the sake of the joy that He can cause in His creation? And when is it the perfect time to do that but in the now?

The world is not all evil, it is much more good than anything else, otherwise life simply could not exist. Sure it's dysfunctional and confusing and sometimes cruel, but who's fault is that?
The biggest punishment we experience is centered on the fear of death. That's because humans have life and love in their hearts which protests against death, and so it should. All fears are based on this fear.
The anger at God and what we perceive His choices to be, comes from fear, the fear of loss, abandonment and dying.

But perfect love casts out all fear, and death is also banished by it - eventually.

I've never before heard the idea that God doesn't (or didn't) know the future. What about Revelation and other prophecy in the Bible?

Nicki wrote:I've never before heard the idea that God doesn't (or didn't) know the future. What about Revelation and other prophecy in the Bible?

God knows the future in one of two ways ( or maybe even both, we really don't know):
There is no future per say for God since He is "outside time", so what He sees is what IS.
God knows ALL possible outcomes of every action so He knows every possible future.

Jeremiah 29:11-14
11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. 13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.