Question about sin, guilt, and repentance.

[Ottoman]

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, and for it being a bit lengthy, but here it goes. Im heavy-laden right now. Nothing has ever come easy for me in life and last year was a rough year for me. I quit my job due to numerous reasons. During that time I fell into sin, gambling, and made some other mistakes that im ashamed of and regret. I wasted precious time with my wife and daughter. I felt a great deal of pain and guilt as a result which led to repentance. Well, I quit gambling and I felt the need reconnect with God, so I went on a "Walk to Emmaus." It was beautiful and came at the right time. It felt great to be in the company of fellow Christians and to be in the presence of the Lord and to rest in his love.

Things were ok after, but slowly guilt and fear (attacks of satan?) started to creep into my mind causing me to doubt my relationship with the Lord. So, I turned to God's word for strength and guidance and I read certain verses that caused me to wonder. For instance, I read Proverbs 1:28-29 which says “Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me, since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord." Then I read Hebrews 13:5 which says "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

Upon reading Proverbs 1:28-29 I was saddened to my core. I felt as though I, through my sins, caused God to leave me. Then I read verses like Hebrews 13:5 Romans 8:38-39 and it seems God will never leave me despite my sins and mistakes as long as I repent. I am heavy-laden and confused especially where I stand with God based on these verses. I don't want his love to depart from me ever!

I do realize now that the things I did were wrong, but there is no undoing it. I made some very bad decisions and feel terribly guilty, but I realize my mistakes and have since repented. I no longer desire those things and I am moving forward.

I have a great desire and thirst for the Lord, but I can't seem (from my point of view) to put it into practice as much as I would like. When I drive to work every morning I love to listen to Moody radio and pray to God. I find myself thinking about my faith/God a lot throughout the day. I listen to sermons and pray as much as I can. I am active in my church and help with a local ministry in my community serving the youth. I want more. I am not satisfied at work. I want to share Christ with others full time, especially kids, because that is what I am passionate about, but a little confused in how to go about that. This longing and thirsting has been causing me to feel a little down as well.

I hope you guys understand my pain and look forward to anyone who can offer some insight.

Thank you

[B. W.]

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, and for it being a bit lengthy, but here it goes. Im heavy-laden right now. Nothing has ever come easy for me in life and last year was a rough year for me. I quit my job due to numerous reasons. During that time I fell into sin, gambling, and made some other mistakes that im ashamed of and regret. I wasted precious time with my wife and daughter. I felt a great deal of pain and guilt as a result which led to repentance. Well, I quit gambling and I felt the need reconnect with God, so I went on a "Walk to Emmaus." It was beautiful and came at the right time. It felt great to be in the company of fellow Christians and to be in the presence of the Lord and to rest in his love.

Things were ok after, but slowly guilt and fear (attacks of satan?) started to creep into my mind causing me to doubt my relationship with the Lord. So, I turned to God's word for strength and guidance and I read certain verses that caused me to wonder. For instance, I read Proverbs 1:28-29 which says “Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me, since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord." Then I read Hebrews 13:5 which says "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

Upon reading Proverbs 1:28-29 I was saddened to my core. I felt as though I, through my sins, caused God to leave me. Then I read verses like Hebrews 13:5 Romans 8:38-39 and it seems God will never leave me despite my sins and mistakes as long as I repent. I am heavy-laden and confused especially where I stand with God based on these verses. I don't want his love to depart from me ever!

I do realize now that the things I did were wrong, but there is no undoing it. I made some very bad decisions and feel terribly guilty, but I realize my mistakes and have since repented. I no longer desire those things and I am moving forward.

I have a great desire and thirst for the Lord, but I can't seem (from my point of view) to put it into practice as much as I would like. When I drive to work every morning I love to listen to Moody radio and pray to God. I find myself thinking about my faith/God a lot throughout the day. I listen to sermons and pray as much as I can. I am active in my church and help with a local ministry in my community serving the youth. I want more. I am not satisfied at work. I want to share Christ with others full time, especially kids, because that is what I am passionate about, but a little confused in how to go about that. This longing and thirsting has been causing me to feel a little down as well.

I hope you guys understand my pain and look forward to anyone who can offer some insight.

Thank you

First the good news - Since you feel remorse, then all is well - you are on the right track

Even far Better yet news - God's Grace

Now onto the bad news - there is no bad news

What you maybe encountering is a performance issue due what is mentioned in Isaiah 61:1-3 regarding a broken heart and held captive to some form of self sabotage.We all have wounds from life such as rejection, abandonment, the need for acceptance / appreciation, and a host of other things that wound us. These things trip us up and Jesus begins a process in all of us that uncovers these wounds so we can be healed of them, in his timing. You might be going through something of that nature now. You mentioned above about all your doing this and that but have you considered simply saying 'I can't' so Jesus can finally say, "Thank you - I can...."

Next, there is a context to scripture so keep that in mind:

Proverbs 16:33, “But he who listens to me shall live securely And will be at ease from the dread of evil”

God trains us in steps, so share Christ is small steps, don't try to run, ponder the path of thy feet the bible tells us and He will make our ways straight and effective in serving him. Learn to go with the flow of the Holy Spirit. Also note that what will sabotage the good work of service to Christ Jesus needs to be removed and often is revealed with each step we take. So with all you doings and desires, what is hindering you? By hindering, I do not mean job or life's necessary duties to family and providing, or personal guilt but rather, what wound has you bound and drives you?

To get a better grasp of what I am trying to say please look at this example: There is a minister of over 30 years in Pastoral position who has a wound that sabotages him. Though he had relationship with his father who was also a minister, he was emotionally abandoned by his father. This caused him to act out to gain attention, so that daddy will look at me - I am someone. His dad also placed a burden of - you must act and do things thus and such way. This further forced him to sabotage the doing of these things. It was all about approval and the need for emotional affection. So he became a control freak over his church.

He had so many programs that the church is literally programmed to death and folks have drifted out of church. His sermons were mere pep talks and promotions for the next best program. The people wanted him to preach the Word of God but it was as if he was saying to the congregation in the role of his deceased dad, you can't make me do that, I'll do this instead and win your approval! I was awful to see enacted out. That wound is sabotaging his calling from God but he's blind to it.

So, the Lord will continue to reveal this wound to him in various ways until he get's healed. He has a control issue due to being emotionally abandoned that causes him to interpret his world through very murky glasses. He can't figure out why people can't be pushed into programs he creates because as a child his dad pushed him to conform to dad's programs. It is as if he is doing the same, but in a twisted way, he is the dad and the church members are in his role. That sabotages his walk with the Lord and his calling. I am not saying you have the same issue at all as this is only an example to help you seek out what is hindering you - really hindering you. So ask the Holy Spirit to reveal what it is and then by God's grace, it will be removed, freely. It is actually very easy.

Blessings and hope this helps in some way...
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[1over137]

Hi Ottoman

Maybe your sadness will dissapear. Here is more from Proverbs 1 with bold parts highlighted by me

Wisdom Warns
20 Wisdom shouts in the street,
She [f]lifts her voice in the square;
21 At the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
At the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings:
22 “How long, O [g]naive ones, will you love [h]being simple-minded?
And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing
And fools hate knowledge?
23 “Turn to my reproof,
Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24 “Because I called and you refused,
I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25 And you neglected all my counsel
And did not want my reproof;
26 I will also laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your dread comes,
27 When your dread comes like a storm
And your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28 “Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the Lord.
30 “They would not accept my counsel,
They spurned all my reproof.
31 “So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way
And be satiated with their own devices.
32 “For the waywardness of the naive will kill them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them.
33 “But he who listens to me shall [j]live securely
And will be at ease from the dread of evil.”

---
It seems to me you turned to his reproof.

[B. W.]

Ottoman, Here is a bit more for another thread that will help you take a few more steps. Though addressing another subject, Melanie's response may help you as well... so please her response below Mallz's...

Quote below from this thread forum's thread by Melanie responding to Maliz:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 5&start=60

I've been doing a little research to verify your claims. I see your reasoning to be fitting Jac, a couple questions and phrases from me for clarification.

1) Rev 13:8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. Our names are in the Book of Life since 'the foundation of the world', yet we are the ones who conquer' to be clothed in white and never be blotted out. We conquer through faith: Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Is this agreeable so far?

If innocence is spared because their names have not yet been blotted out, then I see three possibilities:
a) No ones name is blotted out while they are alive but wait until death to face our Lord in judgement where all our deeds are accounted for and if we had the faith to conquer death through
our proprietor Christ we will be in the Book of Life.
b) Peoples names can be blotted out while alive and their name can be re-written and blotted back out in the Book of Life.
c) Peoples names can be blotted out while alive, never to be re-written into the Book of Life.Which is reasonable? If any.. I'm leaning towards A. As A encompasses B but gets rid of the
unnecessary temporal perspective and A is much more holistic scripturally. C would be true if once damned always damned is promoted in contrast of once saved always saved. Once damned by your name being blotted out of the Book of Life (never to be re-written), once saved by your name starting in the Book of Life. I feel I might be committing logical fallacies here, I'm not able to see them yet. I do know God is just and for justices sake we must prove to ourselves and El-Shaddai what our end is. Which is why I deny predestination as a whole. Which leads me further to think A.

2) quote "But since they don't have it" [eternal life in regards to babies], But they are written in the Book of Life already, so they do have eternal life. Would it be when they cross over into death from Sin, loosing their innocence, is when they don't have eternal life any longer? I think you are affirming this but I saw contradictory statements in your replies...

And if a name is blotted out of the Book of Life, can it be re-written? If all our names are written in the Book of Life since the foundation of the world, then wouldn't it follow we all have salvation until we either loose it, or never loose it by affirming faith? And this would deny OSAS.

Those who will be saved and those who will not are already known to God. I still see OSAS being dangerous (at least in my understanding) in regards to predestination (among others that don't quit
matter yet in this conversation until some of these fundamentals can be fleshed out).

I'm still trying to grasp OSAS on a fundamental level of reasoning. I'm not there yet. I still don't see it. I think it will become more apparent as conversation continues, however, as I'm open to being wrong about my belief you can loose salvation. After I can figure that out (if it is true), there are still problems with reconciling what that would mean with other things, such as the effects on free will vs. total predestination.

thoughts?

I think it's both Mallz. It has been seen through Calvinism and Arminianism that it has to be one or the other. Total predestination or freewill but I think they work hand in hand, it doesn't and shouldn't be one or the other. God has not predestinated those who will be saved on the premise that he sat back and thought okay Bob, Jill and Joe will through my omnipotence be saved and Jack, John and Kate will not. So those names were or were not put into the book of life. We are not puppets playing a scripted role that God puppeteers. That's not love. We have freewill. But God has complete foreknowledge. He can't not.

God created time, He is outside it, not subject to it, like everything it is subject to Him. There is no pre, post or present with God. It's hard for us so limited by time to see around this, our very existence is rooted in it but it's not the same for God . He doesn't look forward or backwards He is everywhere, in all things at all time, our freewill, the choices we make, everything we will choose to do in the future is known by God, before time existed for us or existed at all, God does not have that barrier. To say God knows everything means EVERYTHING. He has not predestined who will choose to love Him by favouritism or unfair advantage to those that choose not to but because He knows and knew already. Our freewill choices are already known to God, they were always known to Him because God has no barrier of time. He knows who are his own because He knows those that will choose to love Him. He wants us all to love Him like He loves us but we are given freedom, without freedom there is no love.

We have free will but our choice to love Him was known to God outside of the barrier of time. He already knows who are His own.

God is not surprised, or thrown off guard.

OSAS is not limited by our free will but rather because of the result of our free will and first and foremost Gods grace.

He knows, He knows everything. He knows those of us who walk in His light and no matter how many times we stumble, how tremendously and ungracefully we fall away from Him, we always find His light again, and He lights the lantern for us to find Him again because He already knows those of us that choose to love Him.

I have until very recently not believed in OSAS because I know how close I came to sabotaging the most precious gift I had ever held. I was walking a very fine line. There is an old saying 'when you know better, you do better' well I knew better and did poorly. I am not going to go into it, but I screwed up badly to the point of losing my salvation, this lead me to think, hang on, I knew God, loved Him, but fell into darkness, if I nearly lost my salvation then it's possible. But God pulled me out and set me straight. I was missing the point. God already knew my potential, already knew that once He intervened and showed me His love and mercy that I would surrender myself to His purpose in a way I had never done previously. He bothered with such a sinner because He already knew that it would ignite a love in me for Him that encompasses everything that I am.

I wasn't once saved always saved because I thought I was, or because it's some Christian right to claim so, God see's beyond what we can fathom, it's once saved always saved because God knows all, see's all and has foreknowledge to those that want and choose to love Him, and He will intervene for that good purpose.

[melanie]

Hi Ottoman,
Some of us learn the hard way, we take the long troubled road. But perhaps it's just our path.
The pain, the poor choices, the hurt we cause to ourselves and others, the guilt, the battle of unworthiness is part of our journey. Without the journey we don't get the victory.
Some of us need a sledge hammer, we need to hit rock bottom to sail to new heights.
Life has not come easy for me either, but Our Heavenly Father knows all our struggles. He has been patient with me, showed me more grace than I could ever deserve. When I was a little girl I would cry and pray to God to help me, to take me away from my suffering, I look back now and my heart breaks for that little girl. God saw every tear, He heard every cry and every prayer. His heart broke for that little girl also. He intimately knows every scar it has left me with. I tried for a very long time to mask those scars with all kinds of folly and stupidity when all along it could only be God's love that could heal them. I believed in God but I didn't trust in a loving Father to truly mend me and mould me.
That took a sledge hammer. I had walked so far away from God's light and love that I remember looking at my reflection in the mirror and not recognising the woman looking back at me. Not at appearance level but something much deeper. Someone very close and dear to me said "I don't who this person is but I don't like her and I want Mel back" .
When God took hold of me and shook me out of the darkness and into His light, I was a mess for a little while. Straight away it truly did hit me like a sledge hammer "whoa, what have I done, what was I thinking, how could I" then the most gut renching guilt kicked in, it literally brought me to my knees in sorrow, despair, guilt and shame. It was a heavy heavy burden. Shame and guilt is too heavy Ottoman for us to bear for too long, if we don't surrender it to God, it can be the very thing that leads us back into sin. The pressure gets too much, we start to buckle under its weight, we look to other things outside of God to relieve the pressure.
God led me back to Him for a purpose for His purpose and I have to honour that, I couldn't have even began to carrying so much guilt and shame. One day I was wallowing in it and God spoke to me loud and clear in my spirit and said 'that's enough'. So now I am saying to you Ottoman "that is enough'. You made some terrible mistakes. The first time you asked God to forgive you with sincerity He did so, now you have to forgive yourself and move forward. Let God fulfil His purpose in you, let His forgiveness and kindness saturate your spirit, let Him show you the way to be kind and forgive yourself, so that you can walk according to His purpose, His purpose for you is not to be burdened by guilt and shame, He has much bigger and brighter things in store.
God never left you Ottoman, you walked away but He brought you back to Him. God's love surpasses your sins. Find triumph in your past mistakes, rise above them. Take refuge in the fact that we can fall so far from God but it never changes His love for us. Take hold of that tremendous love God has shown you, and let it build a stronger relationship with Him. Find the triumph in your journey.