Evidence for God from Science

Ottoman wrote:Sorry if this is the wrong forum, and for it being a bit lengthy, but here it goes. Im heavy-laden right now. Nothing has ever come easy for me in life and last year was a rough year for me. I quit my job due to numerous reasons. During that time I fell into sin, gambling, and made some other mistakes that im ashamed of and regret. I wasted precious time with my wife and daughter. I felt a great deal of pain and guilt as a result which led to repentance. Well, I quit gambling and I felt the need reconnect with God, so I went on a "Walk to Emmaus." It was beautiful and came at the right time. It felt great to be in the company of fellow Christians and to be in the presence of the Lord and to rest in his love.

Things were ok after, but slowly guilt and fear (attacks of satan?) started to creep into my mind causing me to doubt my relationship with the Lord. So, I turned to God's word for strength and guidance and I read certain verses that caused me to wonder. For instance, I read Proverbs 1:28-29 which says “Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me, since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord." Then I read Hebrews 13:5 which says "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

Upon reading Proverbs 1:28-29 I was saddened to my core. I felt as though I, through my sins, caused God to leave me. Then I read verses like Hebrews 13:5 Romans 8:38-39 and it seems God will never leave me despite my sins and mistakes as long as I repent. I am heavy-laden and confused especially where I stand with God based on these verses. I don't want his love to depart from me ever!

I do realize now that the things I did were wrong, but there is no undoing it. I made some very bad decisions and feel terribly guilty, but I realize my mistakes and have since repented. I no longer desire those things and I am moving forward.

I have a great desire and thirst for the Lord, but I can't seem (from my point of view) to put it into practice as much as I would like. When I drive to work every morning I love to listen to Moody radio and pray to God. I find myself thinking about my faith/God a lot throughout the day. I listen to sermons and pray as much as I can. I am active in my church and help with a local ministry in my community serving the youth. I want more. I am not satisfied at work. I want to share Christ with others full time, especially kids, because that is what I am passionate about, but a little confused in how to go about that. This longing and thirsting has been causing me to feel a little down as well.

I hope you guys understand my pain and look forward to anyone who can offer some insight.

Thank you

melanie wrote:

Mallz wrote:I've been doing a little research to verify your claims. I see your reasoning to be fitting Jac, a couple questions and phrases from me for clarification.

1) Rev 13:8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. Our names are in the Book of Life since 'the foundation of the world', yet we are the ones who conquer' to be clothed in white and never be blotted out. We conquer through faith: Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Is this agreeable so far?

If innocence is spared because their names have not yet been blotted out, then I see three possibilities:
a) No ones name is blotted out while they are alive but wait until death to face our Lord in judgement where all our deeds are accounted for and if we had the faith to conquer death through
our proprietor Christ we will be in the Book of Life.
b) Peoples names can be blotted out while alive and their name can be re-written and blotted back out in the Book of Life.
c) Peoples names can be blotted out while alive, never to be re-written into the Book of Life.Which is reasonable? If any.. I'm leaning towards A. As A encompasses B but gets rid of the
unnecessary temporal perspective and A is much more holistic scripturally. C would be true if once damned always damned is promoted in contrast of once saved always saved. Once damned by your name being blotted out of the Book of Life (never to be re-written), once saved by your name starting in the Book of Life. I feel I might be committing logical fallacies here, I'm not able to see them yet. I do know God is just and for justices sake we must prove to ourselves and El-Shaddai what our end is. Which is why I deny predestination as a whole. Which leads me further to think A.

2) quote "But since they don't have it" [eternal life in regards to babies], But they are written in the Book of Life already, so they do have eternal life. Would it be when they cross over into death from Sin, loosing their innocence, is when they don't have eternal life any longer? I think you are affirming this but I saw contradictory statements in your replies...

And if a name is blotted out of the Book of Life, can it be re-written? If all our names are written in the Book of Life since the foundation of the world, then wouldn't it follow we all have salvation until we either loose it, or never loose it by affirming faith? And this would deny OSAS.

Those who will be saved and those who will not are already known to God. I still see OSAS being dangerous (at least in my understanding) in regards to predestination (among others that don't quit
matter yet in this conversation until some of these fundamentals can be fleshed out).

I'm still trying to grasp OSAS on a fundamental level of reasoning. I'm not there yet. I still don't see it. I think it will become more apparent as conversation continues, however, as I'm open to being wrong about my belief you can loose salvation. After I can figure that out (if it is true), there are still problems with reconciling what that would mean with other things, such as the effects on free will vs. total predestination.

thoughts?

I think it's both Mallz. It has been seen through Calvinism and Arminianism that it has to be one or the other. Total predestination or freewill but I think they work hand in hand, it doesn't and shouldn't be one or the other. God has not predestinated those who will be saved on the premise that he sat back and thought okay Bob, Jill and Joe will through my omnipotence be saved and Jack, John and Kate will not. So those names were or were not put into the book of life. We are not puppets playing a scripted role that God puppeteers. That's not love. We have freewill. But God has complete foreknowledge. He can't not.

God created time, He is outside it, not subject to it, like everything it is subject to Him. There is no pre, post or present with God. It's hard for us so limited by time to see around this, our very existence is rooted in it but it's not the same for God . He doesn't look forward or backwards He is everywhere, in all things at all time, our freewill, the choices we make, everything we will choose to do in the future is known by God, before time existed for us or existed at all, God does not have that barrier. To say God knows everything means EVERYTHING. He has not predestined who will choose to love Him by favouritism or unfair advantage to those that choose not to but because He knows and knew already. Our freewill choices are already known to God, they were always known to Him because God has no barrier of time. He knows who are his own because He knows those that will choose to love Him. He wants us all to love Him like He loves us but we are given freedom, without freedom there is no love.

We have free will but our choice to love Him was known to God outside of the barrier of time. He already knows who are His own.

God is not surprised, or thrown off guard.

OSAS is not limited by our free will but rather because of the result of our free will and first and foremost Gods grace.

He knows, He knows everything. He knows those of us who walk in His light and no matter how many times we stumble, how tremendously and ungracefully we fall away from Him, we always find His light again, and He lights the lantern for us to find Him again because He already knows those of us that choose to love Him.

I have until very recently not believed in OSAS because I know how close I came to sabotaging the most precious gift I had ever held. I was walking a very fine line. There is an old saying 'when you know better, you do better' well I knew better and did poorly. I am not going to go into it, but I screwed up badly to the point of losing my salvation, this lead me to think, hang on, I knew God, loved Him, but fell into darkness, if I nearly lost my salvation then it's possible. But God pulled me out and set me straight. I was missing the point. God already knew my potential, already knew that once He intervened and showed me His love and mercy that I would surrender myself to His purpose in a way I had never done previously. He bothered with such a sinner because He already knew that it would ignite a love in me for Him that encompasses everything that I am.

I wasn't once saved always saved because I thought I was, or because it's some Christian right to claim so, God see's beyond what we can fathom, it's once saved always saved because God knows all, see's all and has foreknowledge to those that want and choose to love Him, and He will intervene for that good purpose.