Evidence for God from Science

From a Trinitarian perspective, when did Jesus of Nazareth become the Son of God?

We know the Word (divine) became flesh.

We know that God took on human nature.

We know the Word is the "son" in relationship to the Father.

It seems to me that Jesus of Nazareth became the Son of God at His conception.

Do you agree?

Maybe the correct way to ask is when did the Son of God become Jesus.

PaulSacramento wrote:Maybe the correct way to ask is when did the Son of God become Jesus.

At His conception. I think this was the whole purpose of Jesus being born of a virgin.

What do you think?

Christian2 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Maybe the correct way to ask is when did the Son of God become Jesus.

At His conception. I think this was the whole purpose of Jesus being born of a virgin.

What do you think?

While conception may be true, I think it conveys a purely human side only. Rather, I would say at the moment of his hypostatic union.

Christian2 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Maybe the correct way to ask is when did the Son of God become Jesus.

At His conception. I think this was the whole purpose of Jesus being born of a virgin.

What do you think?

The Son of God, the divine Logos, became human the moment the human embryo came to be.

It is an amazing event when we truly think about it.
Here we have God giving up being God to be human, the contrast being that human would do anything to be God !
The Son of God, being fully God and in perfect union with The Father, gives that up, empties Himself of his divinity (for a time) and becomes fully and truly human and goes through ALL the good and bad that it is to be human, NOT because He didn't know or wanted to fins out, NO!, but so that WE could understand HOW MUCH He loves Us !
He is not a God Dictator !, He is NOT a God that rules our lives and controls ALL we do.
He is a God of compassion, of sacrifice, of pure love, a love that is all about OTHERS and nothing about "Himself".
A pure other-centered love.

He says to Us: No, I will NOT fix everything for you, I will NOT "wave my magic wand" and make it all better BUT what I will do is become one of you, live like you, hurt and bleed and die like you and then SHOW YOU what is next for you if only yo believe IN ME !

Let that sink in...feel and understand what that TRULY MEANS for Us and for HIM.

Can any of us truly fathom that kind of love? that kind of sacrifice?

PaulSacramento wrote:

Christian2 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Maybe the correct way to ask is when did the Son of God become Jesus.

At His conception. I think this was the whole purpose of Jesus being born of a virgin.

What do you think?

The Son of God, the divine Logos, became human the moment the human embryo came to be.

It is an amazing event when we truly think about it.
Here we have God giving up being God to be human, the contrast being that human would do anything to be God !
The Son of God, being fully God and in perfect union with The Father, gives that up, empties Himself of his divinity (for a time) and becomes fully and truly human and goes through ALL the good and bad that it is to be human, NOT because He didn't know or wanted to fins out, NO!, but so that WE could understand HOW MUCH He loves Us !
He is not a God Dictator !, He is NOT a God that rules our lives and controls ALL we do.
He is a God of compassion, of sacrifice, of pure love, a love that is all about OTHERS and nothing about "Himself".
A pure other-centered love.

He says to Us: No, I will NOT fix everything for you, I will NOT "wave my magic wand" and make it all better BUT what I will do is become one of you, live like you, hurt and bleed and die like you and then SHOW YOU what is next for you if only yo believe IN ME !

Let that sink in...feel and understand what that TRULY MEANS for Us and for HIM.

Can any of us truly fathom that kind of love? that kind of sacrifice?

Do you think there is any indication in the Hebrew Bible that God would become man?

Christian2 wrote:Do you think there is any indication in the Hebrew Bible that God would become man?

Read Isaiah, specifically the last part of Chapter 52 and the first part of Chapter 53. There are other examples in the OT but these come to mind immediately.

FL

Christian2 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Christian2 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Maybe the correct way to ask is when did the Son of God become Jesus.

At His conception. I think this was the whole purpose of Jesus being born of a virgin.

What do you think?

The Son of God, the divine Logos, became human the moment the human embryo came to be.

It is an amazing event when we truly think about it.
Here we have God giving up being God to be human, the contrast being that human would do anything to be God !
The Son of God, being fully God and in perfect union with The Father, gives that up, empties Himself of his divinity (for a time) and becomes fully and truly human and goes through ALL the good and bad that it is to be human, NOT because He didn't know or wanted to fins out, NO!, but so that WE could understand HOW MUCH He loves Us !
He is not a God Dictator !, He is NOT a God that rules our lives and controls ALL we do.
He is a God of compassion, of sacrifice, of pure love, a love that is all about OTHERS and nothing about "Himself".
A pure other-centered love.

He says to Us: No, I will NOT fix everything for you, I will NOT "wave my magic wand" and make it all better BUT what I will do is become one of you, live like you, hurt and bleed and die like you and then SHOW YOU what is next for you if only yo believe IN ME !

Let that sink in...feel and understand what that TRULY MEANS for Us and for HIM.

Can any of us truly fathom that kind of love? that kind of sacrifice?

Do you think there is any indication in the Hebrew Bible that God would become man?

No, not really, at least not the way the prophesies were interpreted.
It's easy for Us AFTER the fact to read into those prophecies what they really meant BUT for those at the time, they still believed in a human messiah, not the Incarnate Son of God.

That said, as FL mentioned, Isaiah was pretty clear in his propehcies, like here when He said:

Isaiah 9:6New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

He is a God of compassion, of sacrifice, of pure love, a love that is all about OTHERS and nothing about "Himself".
A pure other-centered love.

Well meaning, but this isn't an accurate statement. Yes, we know that "God IS love." But God's love to us, while unfathomably self-sacrificing, is ALL about glorifying HIMSELF. And, of course, the Cross glorified God beyond all we can imagine. Yet, in glorifying Himself and in inviting and allowing us to PARTAKE in His glory, we too are glorified REFLECTIONS of Him. "Christ became a servant ... in order that the nations might glorify God for his mercy" (Romans 15:8-9). God, in His Trinity, has always fellowshipped in a loving relationship. Are we to think that before creating the angels and Adam God could not express His love, as if He NEEDED us to do so? We are merely a FURTHER expression of God's love that has always been inherent and eternally expressed within His Trinity. It is a dangerous thing to say God's love is "all about others." As it's ALL about Him! God knows this and wants to spread HIs glory, knowing that when others are caught up in His glory it's the most beautiful and eternally lasting thing that could ever happen to them!

Philip wrote:

He is a God of compassion, of sacrifice, of pure love, a love that is all about OTHERS and nothing about "Himself".
A pure other-centered love.

Well meaning, but this isn't an accurate statement. Yes, we know that "God IS love." But God's love to us, while unfathomably self-sacrificing, is ALL about glorifying HIMSELF. And, of course, the Cross glorified God beyond all we can imagine. Yet, in glorifying Himself and in inviting and allowing us to PARTAKE in His glory, we too are glorified REFLECTIONS of Him. "Christ became a servant ... in order that the nations might glorify God for his mercy" (Romans 15:8-9). God, in His Trinity, has always fellowshipped in a loving relationship. Are we to think that before creating the angels and Adam God could not express His love, as if He NEEDED us to do so? We are merely a FURTHER expression of God's love that has always been inherent and eternally expressed within His Trinity. It is a dangerous thing to say God's love is "all about others." As it's ALL about Him! God knows this and wants to spread HIs glory, knowing that when others are caught up in His glory it's the most beautiful and eternally lasting thing that could ever happen to them!

Well, I would ague that stating that God' love is all about HIM is stating that God is selfish and self-centered so I would be careful about wording it in such a way that implies that.

PaulS wrote:
Well, I would ague that stating that God' love is all about HIM is stating that God is selfish and self-centered so I would be careful about wording it in such a way that implies that.

Only if you anthropomorphize God.

Well, I would ague that stating that God' love is all about HIM is stating that God is selfish and self-centered so I would be careful about wording it in such a way that implies that.

Paul, then is it self-centered to encourage and desire worship? If ALL things we have and are offered flow from God's love and His mercy, how can He be selfish or any in way narcissistic? ONLY God deserves worship, and He knows and states that in many places in Scripture. So is that self-centered? That, as Rick alluded to, is a judging criteria for another man, not of God. IF God spent ALL of eternity prior to creating the angels and mankind only fellowshipping within Himself and by Himself, would you consider that self-centered? Do you really think God was somehow lacking in His generosity, mercy, love or any other aspect before He created and began showing His marvelous character to man? The same God, whether surrounded by the various beings He has created or not, has ALWAYS been the same SPIRITUAL essence of all that He is and that has NEVER changed. He is a simple Being, in that, He simply IS (I Am!).

RickD wrote:

PaulS wrote:
Well, I would ague that stating that God' love is all about HIM is stating that God is selfish and self-centered so I would be careful about wording it in such a way that implies that.

Only if you anthropomorphize God.

Of course BUT we are discussing things in human terms and, whether we like it or not, we describe things (even God) in human terms and understanding.
Now, God is so FAR ABOVE our understanding of what Love is that to say that God is Love means far more than we can even begin to understand.
That said, it is important to understand what the bible says about God being love, the nature of God;s love AND what Christ says about Love.
God as a Triune is purely relational and as such, His love must also be so.
Christ said that the greatest love is that which one lays down His life for another:
John 15:13
1John 3:16

It is impossible to speak of ANY love without a quantifier of some sort and while we will never do justice to the love of God, we do have what is written and what was said by Christ as to the nature of God's love and even, as per the above, what is the greatest act of love one can do.

Based on all that, stating that God 's love is self-centered seems, IMO, not to do His Love justice ( as humans can understand love).

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulS wrote:
Well, I would ague that stating that God' love is all about HIM is stating that God is selfish and self-centered so I would be careful about wording it in such a way that implies that.

Only if you anthropomorphize God.

Of course BUT we are discussing things in human terms and, whether we like it or not, we describe things (even God) in human terms and understanding.
Now, God is so FAR ABOVE our understanding of what Love is that to say that God is Love means far more than we can even begin to understand.
That said, it is important to understand what the bible says about God being love, the nature of God;s love AND what Christ says about Love.
God as a Triune is purely relational and as such, His love must also be so.
Christ said that the greatest love is that which one lays down His life for another:
John 15:13
1John 3:16

It is impossible to speak of ANY love without a quantifier of some sort and while we will never do justice to the love of God, we do have what is written and what was said by Christ as to the nature of God's love and even, as per the above, what is the greatest act of love one can do.

Based on all that, stating that God 's love is self-centered seems, IMO, not to do His Love justice ( as humans can understand love).

I completely agree Paul. In fact it is precisely that point (other-centered love) that allows us to state with certainty that God is one essence with more than one personhood. It doesn't necessarily lead us to the trinity per se, that would require revelation. But from a pure reason perspective, it's a solid argument for it.

Thanks Byblos,
It is this argument, that God is other-centered, that I have used to refute the JW teaching that Jesus is a created being and that God did NOT exist at "some point in time" without the Son.