Does God really want us us to know He exists?

[MBPrata]

Christian fellows:

You know, there are days in which I believe in God (yeah, I have that difficulty to decide). But the more time passes, the less I believe in the God of the Bible. I mean...if God wants what is written in the Bible, it's rather unclear why He did things the way they are. Namely: does God really want us to know He exists?

Because if He does, He sure gave us some serious reasons not to believe in that! I know, Jesus came to the Earth, but maybe we'll talk about that later. My problem isn't that one; my problem is with the universe itself, the Earth, the human body and so on. Now, if God really wants us to believe He exists, I don't understand why He created such a universe. Let's see:


- He created a law by which particles can totally come out of "nowhere" (mr. Deem doesn't deny it:

Although it is possible for things such as particles to pop into existence from "nothing," it has never been shown that non-quantum-sized objects can perform such feats.

), thus leading us to think stuff can come out of nowhere with no divine intervention whatsoever
- He created a universe in which every single thing changes, thus leading us to think an "eternal" reality (e.g. Heaven) can not exist
- He (we assume) designed a lot of human-like creatures, thus giving us reasons to believe in evolution. Not to mention some really similar creatures...
- He made us sleep, thus leading us to think that a lesser quantity of electricity on the brain can obliterate all consciousness
- He made us dream and hallucinate, thus leading us to think "reality" comes from our brain and we can never be sure of what reality is


And I'm sure there are more. You see, I'm ok with thinking outside of the box and believing in a sentient, eternal, intelligent being creating our universe, but these apparent lacks of logic on God's thought really keep me away from belief. Well...at least from the belief in the God described in the Bible. Have you considered all this "clues" God gave us to think He isn't real? What are your thoughts on this?

I thank you in advance.

[Jac3510]

Particles don't come from nothing. Notice the scare quotes around the word "nothing" in Deem's article. "Nothing" is not nothing at all.

Read this:

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/02 ... ad-at.html

[MBPrata]

Ok, so the law of gravity has to "exist" even in the so-called "nothing" so the nothing will create stuff for itself. Big deal. If anything, that means gravity may be the supreme force in everything that exists...and doesn't exist. That leaves us with some questions, but the main question would be: "Who or what is the supreme force that rules above other single rule? God or gravity?".

Now, ir order to choose the belief in one of those forces, we could go for the intelligent-or-illogical-universe dilema. Yes, God may have created the universe as the universe seems sort of intelligent...but then again, all those illogical things I talked about in my first post, up here. Things that don't seem to come from a logical thought. You didn't go over those other issues, so this doesn't help me much.

Also, where I come from, blogs/blogspots are not exactly the most faithful sources.

[1over137]

Christian fellows:

You know, there are days in which I believe in God (yeah, I have that difficulty to decide). But the more time passes, the less I believe in the God of the Bible. I mean...if God wants what is written in the Bible, it's rather unclear why He did things the way they are. Namely: does God really want us to know He exists?

Yes.

Because if He does, He sure gave us some serious reasons not to believe in that! I know, Jesus came to the Earth, but maybe we'll talk about that later. My problem isn't that one; my problem is with the universe itself, the Earth, the human body and so on. Now, if God really wants us to believe He exists, I don't understand why He created such a universe. Let's see:


- He created a law by which particles can totally come out of "nowhere" (mr. Deem doesn't deny it:

Although it is possible for things such as particles to pop into existence from "nothing," it has never been shown that non-quantum-sized objects can perform such feats.

), thus leading us to think stuff can come out of nowhere with no divine intervention whatsoever

It's not nowhere. It's quantum vacuum.
Divine intervention - is God supposed to intervene every single particle?

- He created a universe in which every single thing changes, thus leading us to think an "eternal" reality (e.g. Heaven) can not exist

I do not understand. Why heaven cannot exist? Can you elaborate?

- He (we assume) designed a lot of human-like creatures, thus giving us reasons to believe in evolution. Not to mention some really similar creatures...

My creation position is still "undecided". I therefore cannot comment.

- He made us sleep, thus leading us to think that a lesser quantity of electricity on the brain can obliterate all consciousness

What is your point here? When we dream we do not see or hear. Still we have subconsiousness, for example.

- He made us dream and hallucinate, thus leading us to think "reality" comes from our brain and we can never be sure of what reality is

Kick the stone and you will know the reality. It will hurt. Or you think that could be dream as well?

And I'm sure there are more. You see, I'm ok with thinking outside of the box and believing in a sentient, eternal, intelligent being creating our universe, but these apparent lacks of logic on God's thought really keep me away from belief. Well...at least from the belief in the God described in the Bible. Have you considered all this "clues" God gave us to think He isn't real? What are your thoughts on this?

I thank you in advance.

Welcome to the forum, btw.

[MBPrata]

It's not nowhere. It's quantum vacuum.

Ok, I'll give you that; I didn't realize that.

Divine intervention - is God supposed to intervene every single particle?

No, that was not my point.

I do not understand. Why heaven cannot exist? Can you elaborate?

I didn't say Heaven cannot exist, I said we thought it cannot exist. Not all of us, of course. What I mean is...for a God who wants us to believe that anything "eternal" is possible, he didn't give us any example within our universe. And I realize the universe is not supposed to last forever, but...wouldn't it be easier for us, humans, to believe in something eternal if our universe wasn't entirely made of stuff that can't last forever?

My creation position is still "undecided". I therefore cannot comment.

Fair enough; I'm still sort of undecided as well.

What is your point here? When we dream we do not see or hear. Still we have subconsiousness, for example.

Either you and I have radically different dreams, or you're using a too free definition of "see" and "hear". I can totally see things and hear sounds when I dream! Now, you may say they are not real; that they come from my brain. And you'd probably be right. But not only does that raise a serious question on what is reality, but it also doesn't explain the lack of conciousness we, let's say, "experience" when we sleep and are not dreaming.

Kick the stone and you will know the reality. It will hurt. Or you think that could be dream as well?

It can totally be. Nothing avoids it. As long as our consciousness is "stuck" in our body, it's pretty hard to decide what is real and what is not. If, in our life, we were given an oportunity to "observe" the universe with a consciousness that doesn't allow false experiences (aka dreams and hallucinations), maybe we would be more sure about what reality is. But we are not given that.
And, as I said before, we seem to have radically different dreams. I've already felt pain when dreaming. Yeah, apparently our brain is that powerful: if it believes in the reality he's living, he reacts as if it's real (and who knows whether it is or not...). Oh, and not just pain; I've felt some several feelings when dreaming. Feelings that we're only supposed to feel when awake...

Welcome to the forum, btw.

Thank you. I hope it helps me when dealing with the countless dilemmas I face daily.

[1over137]

This physical world is not eternal. (Hm, maybe except energy. See the law of conservation of energy. And well, all physical laws seem to be holding for a veeeery long time.)
However God placed eternity into our hearts. We want beutiful music to last forever. We want our loved ones be with us forever. We want to sit on the high mountain and see the beautiful nature forever.

As to your dreams: I would like to ask: how do you know that you dream when you dream?

If I have not understood some of your points tell me so, maybe in different words.

[MBPrata]

This physical world is not eternal. (Hm, maybe except energy. See the law of conservation of energy. And well, all physical laws seem to be holding for a veeeery long time.)
However God placed eternity into our hearts. We want beutiful music to last forever. We want our loved ones be with us forever. We want to sit on the high mountain and see the beautiful nature forever.

True. We also want to sin, though. At least, those who haven't accepted God's morality...

As to your dreams: I would like to ask: how do you know that you dream when you dream?

If I understood what you meant (I'm not sure), the answer is: I pretty much don't. My dreams are really intense experiences and only occasionally do I realize I'm dreaming while I'm still dreaming. I only realize I was dreaming when I wake up. And all this makes it hard to believe in any reality at all.

If I have not understood some of your points tell me so, maybe in different words.

Ok, back to the sleep thing. Yes, sometimes you dream when you're sleeping (apparently all nights, actually), but what about when you're sleeping and feel absolutely nothing? I mean, I can sort of understand dreams, as our brain activity raises when we dream (aka REM sleep)...but why making us feel nothing at all while sleeping with no REM sleep? Isn't that way likely to make us think death means no brain activity, meaning the so-called "eternal sleep"?

[Kurieuo]

@MBP, if you're open to reading, then get yourself a copy of Reasonable Faith by Craig.
You can buy it on Kindle or I could loan it to you if you have an account.

I think this is a great foundational book for anyone doubting their Christian faith.

[1over137]

I do not know how to yet address your last section about feeling nothing.

However this is now on my mind.
If you are dreaming then the reality is that you are dreaming. Yes, after you wake up you know you were dreaming.
There is a reality. Thing is what is that reality.

Also, usually when you are dreaming you are dreaming each time about different things. Then you wake up to the same world you wake up each time.

[RickD]

I do not know how to yet address your last section about feeling nothing.

However this is now on my mind.
If you are dreaming then the reality is that you are dreaming. Yes, after you wake up you know you were dreaming.
There is a reality. Thing is what is that reality.

Also, usually when you are dreaming you are dreaming each time about different things. Then you wake up to the same world you wake up each time.

Speaking of dreaming, for the longest time, I had a recurring dream in which I found myself in my elementary school, dressed only in my tightie whities. Dr. Hana, could you analyze this dream for me?

[1over137]

Not yet. Do not derail the thread.

[1over137]

This physical world is not eternal. (Hm, maybe except energy. See the law of conservation of energy. And well, all physical laws seem to be holding for a veeeery long time.)
However God placed eternity into our hearts. We want beutiful music to last forever. We want our loved ones be with us forever. We want to sit on the high mountain and see the beautiful nature forever.

True. We also want to sin, though. At least, those who haven't accepted God's morality...

Maybe also those sinners long for eternity.

As to your dreams: I would like to ask: how do you know that you dream when you dream?

Ok, back to the sleep thing. Yes, sometimes you dream when you're sleeping (apparently all nights, actually), but what about when you're sleeping and feel absolutely nothing? I mean, I can sort of understand dreams, as our brain activity raises when we dream (aka REM sleep)...but why making us feel nothing at all while sleeping with no REM sleep? Isn't that way likely to make us think death means no brain activity, meaning the so-called "eternal sleep"?

Every healthy sleep has REM phase, is that correct? Just we may not remember our dreams. (Mostly I do not remeber them.)
Also, during the day we gain informations and during the sleep we process them in our brains.

[Starhunter]

Yes, but not in any other way than by what He has said.

You'll find that the Bible declares the only means of pleasing God and or knowing God is by faith.

If the condition was intelligence, experience, circumstance, status, family, your condition of health and state of mind, evidence, physical proof, science etc then some, if not many, would be unfairly disadvantaged.
So God has made the condition of knowing Him and being saved by faith alone, and it is a faith that works by love.
Even animals know what love is, don't they?

So no matter how damaged by sin, disadvantaged by health or circumstances, or whatever reason there might be on earth, it is impossible for anyone to be lost if they have the slightest inclination of faith.

You don't even have to be able to love for God to make Himself known to you, just by believing His love for you will make all the necessary changes for salvation. It's a miracle.

I think John says, to love is to know God - for God is love. Not because we love Him, but because He loved us first.

A child may not know what love is, but it unconsciously depends on life and love to survive. We have the tenderest regard for a child because of their vulnerability and sweet acceptance of their world. Our basic needs for life and love commend us to God, Who is fully attracted and committed by our needs, whether we are aware of them or not.

So we may not have any 'proof' of God existing or loving us, and yet it is true, by the very fact we don't know Him, recognize Him or believe in Him. And the proof is that we are living by the life which He gives.

The theory of evolution has been one of Satan's most successful campaigns against God. That is why Jesus said about the last days in earth's history "when the Son of man returns - shall He find faith?" And "because iniquity shall abound the love of many will wax cold, but he that endures until the end shall be saved"

It is a tough time.

[Mazzy]

Christian fellows:

You know, there are days in which I believe in God (yeah, I have that difficulty to decide). But the more time passes, the less I believe in the God of the Bible. I mean...if God wants what is written in the Bible, it's rather unclear why He did things the way they are. Namely: does God really want us to know He exists?

Because if He does, He sure gave us some serious reasons not to believe in that! I know, Jesus came to the Earth, but maybe we'll talk about that later. My problem isn't that one; my problem is with the universe itself, the Earth, the human body and so on. Now, if God really wants us to believe He exists, I don't understand why He created such a universe. Let's see:


- He created a law by which particles can totally come out of "nowhere" (mr. Deem doesn't deny it:

Although it is possible for things such as particles to pop into existence from "nothing," it has never been shown that non-quantum-sized objects can perform such feats.

), thus leading us to think stuff can come out of nowhere with no divine intervention whatsoever
- He created a universe in which every single thing changes, thus leading us to think an "eternal" reality (e.g. Heaven) can not exist
- He (we assume) designed a lot of human-like creatures, thus giving us reasons to believe in evolution. Not to mention some really similar creatures...
- He made us sleep, thus leading us to think that a lesser quantity of electricity on the brain can obliterate all consciousness
- He made us dream and hallucinate, thus leading us to think "reality" comes from our brain and we can never be sure of what reality is


And I'm sure there are more. You see, I'm ok with thinking outside of the box and believing in a sentient, eternal, intelligent being creating our universe, but these apparent lacks of logic on God's thought really keep me away from belief. Well...at least from the belief in the God described in the Bible. Have you considered all this "clues" God gave us to think He isn't real? What are your thoughts on this?

I thank you in advance.

Hi there

I see some responses have addressed some inaccuracies around creating something out of nothing. All I'll say to that is one of the current laws of physics states energy is neither created nor destroyed, but can be changed. The singularity was not 'nothing', it was a great source of energy. No matter how may universes one theories existed, one is still left with huge of source of energy in existence in the 'beginning'.

Here is another take on why galaxies appear to be moving away from the Milky Way at an accelerating rate. This is a galactocentric view of the universe. This model makes the MiIlky Way special and challenges the Copernican Principal. I could find the actual research by Smoller an Temple if you're interested.

http://www.space.com/7145-big-wave-theo ... nergy.html

Your number one query "He created a universe in which every single thing changes, thus leading us to think an "eternal" reality (e.g. Heaven) can not exist". Change or no change has nothing to do with the existence of a non corporeal life forms and Heaven. To have faith in BB one must accept the laws of physics did not exist at one time or were different. Let's not forget BB was discredited when it appeared to be observed that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Now there are a plethora of maybes to save BB from death.

- "He (we assume) designed a lot of human-like creatures, thus giving us reasons to believe in evolution. Not to mention some really similar creatures..." There are no human like creatures unless one has an over active imagination. Mankind may be a primate according to a taxonomy that is based on the assumption of common ancestry. However Mankind is a primate that is an obligate biped, with sophisticated language that can record learning that can also attempt make sense of the world. If we saw non human apes or lizards starting to build telescopes, have technological advancements, become inquisitive about the universe or a God, then perhaps one may say there were some other human like creatures.

- He made us sleep, thus leading us to think that a lesser quantity of electricity on the brain can obliterate all consciousness Being able to sleep has nothing to do with there being a biblical God, heaven or not. We sleep to rest our brain. It is a wonderful design.

- He made us dream and hallucinate, thus leading us to think "reality" comes from our brain and we can never be sure of what reality is Again, I can't see how this has anything to do with a biblical God or heaven. For those that think reality is a computer program, then someone created the program that has put eternity and God into the minds of man. The programmer also created atheists that spend allot of the time talking or thinking about God. Even if it is to discredit the theology or 'don't know', one has some stance on their belief in God or spirituality.

Despite mankind's attempt to explain life and the universe in Godless terms, the sad fact that is inescapable is that we live on a beautiful planet in a Goldilocks zone that supports a multitude of complex reproducing life forms. After looking into the sky for decades, having SETI seeking noise, exploring other planets we appear to be alone. The only challenges to the facts are statistical wish lists.

God has left us plenty to suggest He is here. Unbelievers spend allot of time inventing theories that try to overturn the facts as they stand and what is observed.

[MBPrata]

Again, I'll give you the "nothing" thing. The others, though...

To have faith in BB one must accept the laws of physics did not exist at one time or were different.

Ok, but that's a great leap of faith. And, considering how the human brain works, it would be easier for us to believe in something eternal if we managed to see/hear/touch/whatever something eternal. Something we couldn't change in this universe made of change...

There are no human like creatures unless one has an over active imagination.

Not necessarily. The list of things that animals do that we humans also do is just huge (like...animals also have will, they also want to live, they don't want to die as well, they reproduce, they feed, they breathe, they have a bond with their cubs, oh so much, so much, so much more...), so it's kind of hard to believe we're not just animals. Primates are "just" the climax of all those similarities.

Being able to sleep has nothing to do with there being a biblical God, heaven or not. We sleep to rest our brain. It is a wonderful design.

Now, here's a big issue! First, I didn't say sleep had that much to do with there being a biblical God, heaven or not; I just think it seems illogical that an intelligent being who wants us to believe in X gives this evidence against X.
Second, for the we-sleep-to-rest-our-brains thing, there's a problem there. So, let's assume the laws of physics didn't exist before God created the universe. We assume that God created them, right? But the thing is: if God invented new laws, He could have invented them in pretty much any way. Any way at all. So, if God created these laws and realized they implied humans would have to sleep...well, why didn't He just remove that part of the law? What's the point of making us experience, for moments, the so-called "feeling nothing", which could totally make us believe that's what expect us the our brain stops working? You may say that our brains were built in a way which implies the need for rest. Well, why not just "building" them in another way? It could actually be more productive; if we saw that animals slept but we didn't, we would have MORE reasons to believe we're not just animals and/or have something special. Where's the logic in sleep, then?

Again,I can't see how this has anything to do with a biblical God or heaven

Again, it doesn't that much! It just makes us more likely to believe that we don't know anything - anything at all - about the so-called "reality". I mean, how can we humans think whether the universe is evidence for God or not if we can't even be sure that the universes exists? The reality-or-not dilemma is a really obsessive one, sometimes even more than the is-there-a-God-or-not. Wouldn't this huge doubt keep us away from thinking on God's existence because we were "too obsessed" thinking whether this is "real" or not?

God has left us plenty to suggest He is here.

That still bug me. "Suggest"? What, is God going to risk the well-being of hundreds sentient, intelligent, fragile beings (aka humans) on "suggesting"? This is no small issue we're talking about; we're talking about the risk of sending sentient beings into an eternity of suffering! This is relevant! The ammount of evidence God might give us is relevant! The ammount of evidence against God that God Himself allowed in the universe He created is relevant! Now, I've thought about gods a lot of times, and I wouldn't be surprised if they/he didn't care about us, since I also don't care about the "warriors" I kill when I play Warlords 2 (cool game, by the way). But from the Christian perspective...if God cares about us, why his He risking so much souls on a simple "suggestion"? Why not "clear, extensive, hardly deniable evidence"? Doesn't that sound safer?
And, please, don't come with the question of whether God should show Himself to us. I'm not saying He should. But...seriously...what about not giving us so much evidence against His existence?