Evidence for God from Science

Hi everyone! So, for about a year now I've been going through a bit of a crisis of faith/existential crisis. I constantly find myself struggling with such fun topics as: the existence of God, the purpose of existence, the inevitability of death, the question of Biblical infallibility, disconcerting passages in the Bible, and the list goes on.

One of the biggest issues that I've been wrestling with is the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in Hell. I have, like, a lot of issues with Hell and I can't wrap my mind around it. How is eternal torment in Hell for unbelievers just?

Hi as well.

I like B.W.'s post.
Poeple will torment themselves.

1over137 wrote:Hi as well.

I like B.W.'s post.
Poeple will torment themselves.

But what about those who unwittingly end up 'tormenting themselves'? Do those who are indoctrinated from childhood into differing belief systems--Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam--knowingly send themselves to Hell? How can these kinds of people knowingly reject God's gift if they've been essentially programmed to believe in something else?

There are other views on the Doctrine of Hell - Annihilationism and Universalism as well.

I am more of a Annihilationist my self. This is also know as conditionalism.

ItBeMacKenzie wrote:

1over137 wrote:Hi as well.

I like B.W.'s post.
Poeple will torment themselves.

But what about those who unwittingly end up 'tormenting themselves'? Do those who are indoctrinated from childhood into differing belief systems--Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam--knowingly send themselves to Hell? How can these kinds of people knowingly reject God's gift if they've been essentially programmed to believe in something else?

I can imagine God is drawing people even from countries with different belief system.
I myself was 'indoctrinated' with atheistic belief and 'programmed' into believing there is not God.

We're cool

The problem here is the use of this very form of debate on the subject of Hell that attempts do several things such as:

1 - Attack the existence of God

2 - Place God on trial for unfairness

3 - Disprove Christianity

4 - Stain the reputation of God's character

5 - Manipulate God to conform to human will

6 - Hubristic pride that seeks to justify a cause such as such as atheism, etc and etc

I am not sure that the reason for this thread is any of these purposes but I always have my doubts.

The answers to the things posed here are simple, yet, can appear to be complex. For example, there is a principle found in Isa 66:3,4 NKJV found in the later part of verse three... "...Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations..."

In the next verse, God declares what?

Isa 66:4 NKJV, "So will I choose their delusions (punishments), And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."

Read same verse from Isa 66:4 NASB and it reads - choose their punishments -- why?

When you read the word evil, we naturally think - evil as pure wickedness so that no one thinks they are really evil. Yet this Hebrew word denotes how one twists off the path and abuses what is good, loving, twisting it and perverting it for ones one ends. It implies moral twisting to justify moral evil to action. There are none righteous, no not one Paul wrote in the book of Romans. All sin - miss the mark - twist off the straight good path. All twist goodness and love and manipulate these to their own selfish control. With that in mind, you find God calling, but folks choosing not to hear and did what they loved - living a morally crooked twisted path that justifies the fruit of their actions.

What folks in hell receive is their own delusions as punishment... in a manner that is just, fair, and correct. In other words, they reap what they sow. in doing this, the real person is exposed loving evil's twisting more that anything else.
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Hell is populated by people that would rather be THERE than to worship God.
It isn't about even believing in God since the devil and his angels believe also.
It is about choosing to NOT worship God, they choose to reject God.

1over137 wrote:

ItBeMacKenzie wrote:

1over137 wrote:Hi as well.

I like B.W.'s post.
Poeple will torment themselves.

But what about those who unwittingly end up 'tormenting themselves'? Do those who are indoctrinated from childhood into differing belief systems--Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam--knowingly send themselves to Hell? How can these kinds of people knowingly reject God's gift if they've been essentially programmed to believe in something else?

I can imagine God is drawing people even from countries with different belief system.
I myself was 'indoctrinated' with atheistic belief and 'programmed' into believing there is not God.

I'm sure that there people who have come to know God despite their religious upbringing and background, but there are also plenty of examples where people are driven away from Christianity because of their upbringing. Take Nate Phelps, for example, a former member of the Westboro Baptist Church. Nate tried to remain a Christian after his breaking-away from the church, but he was unable to reconcile the loving, graceful, and merciful God with the hateful and wrathful God that he was raised to believe in, and eventually turned away from Christianity and religion.

I mean, if you've heard about the Westboro Baptist Church you know that they have an extremely warped image of who God is. Obviously, I don't know this guys personally, but it seems to me that he never got to learn about or experience God's full character--His love, His grace, His mercy. How would it be fair then for Nate to go to Hell because he turned his back on the god that he was raised to believe in? And what about others who reject God because they have a warped or incomplete understanding of who He really is?

I do not know who Nate is. And also do not know much about Westboro Baptist church.
But I can associate with it since churches here in Slovakia did damages and many people left and turned away from God.
But I do believe God is merciful and loving, knows the damaged hearts and works in them.
Ultimately, only God really knows our hearts. He knows best who would like to spend eternity with him and who not.

ItBeMacKenzie,

The Westboro Baptist Church is a cult and certainly not Christian. It does not bear good fruit as there is none of the Fruits of the Spirit evidenced in their actions or teachings.

Gal 5:22 NKJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...

Westboro's doctrines and actions prove that they are not christian because they bear no true fruit. They are hate filled, bigoted and deceived. The alleged Nate spoken about shows signs of someone coming out of a cult and going through a typical psychological detox phase. See these links for further details:

http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studyreco ... trauma.htm

http://www.the-gospel.org/stdy_hrmntcs/cults.php

Again, none of us can judge if the supposed Nate in question was a Christian or not. Like any ensnared Christian, God can draw him back after he detoxs from the cult's influence and will become a better person, helping others come out of abusive religious systems, etc. If not a Christian, we do not know, but if not, he was deceived and used by Satan to blame God for letting it happen as well be used by others to attempt to make God look like a criminal for a place called hell.

ItBeMacKenzie, let me toss another moral conundrum at you: What of those ISIS and Taliban chaps - do they deserve hell? Like I stated earlier, many folks come to this forum and try to dissuade folks about hell and in the process attempt to prove God mean for making such a place. Hope you are not one of them. Depending on translations bible mentions a place called hell around 250 times for a reason. If there were 200 warning signs telling the bridge ahead is washed out and then 50 stops signs on top of that, would you blissfully drive on at full speed, saying to self. " Can't Be - that's too cruel to close the road I want to drive on!"
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1over137 wrote:I do not know who Nate is. And also do not know much about Westboro Baptist church.
But I can associate with it since churches here in Slovakia did damages and many people left and turned away from God.
But I do believe God is merciful and loving, knows the damaged hearts and works in them.
Ultimately, only God really knows our hearts. He knows best who would like to spend eternity with him and who not.

Many "christian" groups end up turning people away from God, I have seen t his too and it makes little difference to the people that leave if the group is truly Christian or not.
I take comfort in the fact that these people have NOT turned from God but from a false God ( even though they may NOT k now it at the time) and that God shall reveal Himself to them and that they will be saved.

B. W. wrote:ItBeMacKenzie,

The Westboro Baptist Church is a cult and certainly not Christian. It does not bear good fruit as there is none of the Fruits of the Spirit evidenced in their actions or teachings.

Gal 5:22 NKJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...

Westboro's doctrines and actions prove that they are not christian because they bear no true fruit. They are hate filled, bigoted and deceived. The alleged Nate spoken about shows signs of someone coming out of a cult and going through a typical psychological detox phase. See these links for further details:

http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studyreco ... trauma.htm

http://www.the-gospel.org/stdy_hrmntcs/cults.php

Again, none of us can judge if the supposed Nate in question was a Christian or not. Like any ensnared Christian, God can draw him back after he detoxs from the cult's influence and will become a better person, helping others come out of abusive religious systems, etc. If not a Christian, we do not know, but if not, he was deceived and used by Satan to blame God for letting it happen as well be used by others to attempt to make God look like a criminal for a place called hell.

ItBeMacKenzie, let me toss another moral conundrum at you: What of those ISIS and Taliban chaps - do they deserve hell? Like I stated earlier, many folks come to this forum and try to dissuade folks about hell and in the process attempt to prove God mean for making such a place. Hope you are not one of them. Depending on translations bible mentions a place called hell around 250 times for a reason. If there were 200 warning signs telling the bridge ahead is washed out and then 50 stops signs on top of that, would you blissfully drive on at full speed, saying to self. " Can't Be - that's too cruel to close the road I want to drive on!"
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You mention that if he was not saved, then "he was deceived and used by Satan". Here's my problem: How can one make a coherent decision to either accept or reject God if they have been deceived into believing a lie about Him?

As for the question you posed, of course I believe that members of ISIS and the Taliban should be punished for their atrocious crimes. However, shouldn't there be a difference between the levels of punishment that a person who knowingly commits violence and evil against others and a person who has been deceived into believing in a lie receives?

And let me clear things up: I didn't join this forum with some kind of agenda to dissuade others from their beliefs (I hope I'm not coming off in a way to make you think that?); I joined this forum because I am honestly troubled by the doctrine of Hell and am hoping to find answers that will help me to better understand this doctrine. So yeah.

Lets be honest, most people issue with Hell is that it is everlasting.
Very few people have issues with Hell being for those that must pay for the horrific things they have done while alive.
Very few people would have issues seeing Hitler in Hell.

Some years ago, I had difficult times with hell. I did/do not want some people end up in hell. I even wondered how someone may be happy in heaven when knowing that there are some in hell.

This is not troubling me that much now. Perhaps I trust much more God in what he does and that what he does is good and just. I am only a human being who does not want to dictate him what he should do and what he should be like. He is God. And thankfully for us, he is the kind of God that forgives.

Bible declares, our God is a just God. If we had all the knowledge he has, we would see it. Maybe in heaven he will reveal us all the mysteries.