Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

[christianwarrior]

The issue of whether or not someone can lose their salvation is of utmost importance. On a personal note one of the pastors who prayed with me when I became a Christian believes that people can lose their salvation by rejecting their former faith. However my love and admiration for him cannot override my obligation to point out why he and other people who hold this position are mistaken. The pastor is more than welcome to respond to my post hopefully we can a discussion in truth and love as brothers in Christ.


1. There are those who used to profess Christ but no longer. They have not lost their salvation. They might be choosing to deny Christ, like Peter did, due to social pressure and distress. Those people still have salvation. However there is also another possibility. They might be choosing to betray Christ, like Judas Iscariot, because they never put their faith in Christ. On the outside it looked like they were Christians but they never were and never had salvation.

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-19

Just like in the times of the early Church, there are those who seemed to have left the Church but they were never a part of the Church and were never a member of the Body of Christ. Now we all personally know people who used to profess Christ but no longer. I know people who have done that I am not sure whether or not they are still Christians but have chosen to deny Christ due to pressure or if they never were Christians. However none of them have lost their salvation, either they still have salvation or they never had it in the first place.

Many people claim to believe in Christ. However their faith in Him was nominal, superficial, and lacked roots. They are the people Jesus was talking about the in parable of the sower, where the seed fell on thorny and rocky ground. http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sower.html They never put true faith in Jesus and so are carried away by the cares of the world and by hardship. Again, it is possible for someone, like Peter, to deny their faith under pressure and still be a follower of Jesus. However in those cases most of those Christians would feel a conviction like Peter did and turn back to God. Peter did not lose his salvation then gain it back by repenting, he demonstrated his faith through repentance. (Cause-and-effect) Peter was always saved. Judas Iscariot did not lose his salvation by betraying Jesus but demonstrated that he was never a follower through his actions.

2. Those are several people who either assume they themselves are of Christ or we assume are of Christ but are not.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

There are many people who grow up in Church who are enlightened about the Gospel and may have even been active in serving in the Church however they merely sampled and tasted the presence of God rather than fully embrace it. Growing up in church, I was enlightened with the knowledge of God. I even felt the presence of the Holy Spirit however I did not put my faith in the Lord Jesus. Everyone assumed I was a Christian because my parents were active in the ministry however I was not of Christ.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

*As a side-note since Hebrews 5:12-6:3 speaks about what we as Christians should do if God permits us to, when it states in Hebrews 6:4-6 that it is impossible to renew those who have fallen away it is speaking about our ability to renew someone. It is not possible for us to renew those who have tasted the presence of God to renew them. However it is possible for God to work in them and for them to respond, so don't lose hope in those people. I received the Holy Spirit at the age of 18 after I fell away. This is similiar to the rich man who Jesus says it is easier to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven. "And looking at them Jesus said to them, 'With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'” (Matthew 19:26)*

Matthew 7:21-23:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Those people were never of Christ because they were relying on their good works to get them into heaven. http://www.gotquestions.org/Matthew-7-21-23.html Instead of acknowledging that only the blood of Jesus can get them into the kingdom they believed that their good deeds could allow them to enter into the kingdom of God. Good deeds cannot save us because God does not just look at our actions he also looks at the heart (1 Samuel 16:7). The Pharisees of Jesus' times looked righteousness on the outside but on inside they practiced lawlessness:" So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness" (Matthew 23:28). Good works do not change who we are from the inside. Also God's standard is not good it is perfection. All of us have done evil deeds. http://www.goodpersontest.com/ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23 The reason why people sin is from a corrupt heart (Jeremiah 17:9, Romans 3:10-17). This is when we need the sacrifice of Jesus to pay for our sins and the Holy Spirit to abide in us to transform our heart, soul, and spirit. http://christiananswers.net/gospel/

We assume people are Christians because they said the sinner's prayer. In fact I said the sinner's prayer at the age of five but I was unsaved until the age of eighteen.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

There are many people who said the sinner's prayer who we assume are Christians however they did not believe in their heart. I have been to several services and Christian rallies where the pastor or the speaker will tell people that if they want to get saved they should repeat a prayer that the pastor says. They will repeat the prayer that they heard. The pastor will then ask people who said the prayer to raise their hands. Then he will count the number of raised hands. Later he will write a newsletter or e-mail where he will say something like 100 people got saved at the rally. By the grace of God some of the people in the rally received salvation however many of them did not. Some of them said the prayer out of pressure from their friends. Many of them had no idea what in the world they were repeating because the pastor was saying the prayer quickly and not even giving them time to think about what the prayer meant. Salvation comes by putting your faith in Jesus not by repeating a prayer you heard someone else say. I said the sinner's prayer when I was five years old after a teacher had told me about the prayer. I was merely repeating what she said but people assumed I was a Christian after that point. When people claim that those who say the sinner's prayer are saved, they are saying that a prayer not the faith in the work of Jesus on the cross, saves us. David Platt on the sinner's prayer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ91LQ_V ... PhEEzjU8xQ We should let people say their own prayer and make their own confession. It would also be a good idea to follow up on the people who had professions of faith and ask them about their beliefs before declaring them to be saved.
Although I had said the sinner's prayer at age 5, I was not an heir of the promise until the age of 18 when I encountered the Holy Spirit and felt the love of God. I put my faith in Jesus and trusted him.

3. The work of the Holy Spirit can never be undone.

While salvation cannot be earned by works, salvation results in the Holy Spirit working within. When someone puts their faith in Jesus, they receive the Holy Spirit.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ he wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:3-8)

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8:9-11)

God promises that the work that the Holy Spirit begins in you will be completed.

I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. (Phillipians 1:3-6)

For someone to lose their salvation would be for the work to be incomplete and imperfect.

4. A soul that has been redeemed by God cannot be taken away.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:27-30)

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

The Holy Spirit acts as a seal and a deposit to guarantee us as God's possession. There was a time when I wondered away from the Lord. I fell into grave sins and lost my faith in Him (I stopped trusting in Him), however even in my wandering the Holy Spirit still was working in my life. During that time, one of my friends, who did not have any idea that what was happening, told me that God had told him that God had not abandoned me. There were times when God was speaking to me and the Holy Spirit drew me back.

5. In Christ, we are children of God.

See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 1 John 3:1

As children of God we can sometimes wander away from God however like we are still his children when we return to Him he embraces us with open arms. (Parable of the Prodigical Son, Luke 15:11-32)
http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-prodigal-son.html

6. As children of God, we can never lose our position as a child of God however we can face the discipline and chastening of God.

Opponents of the position of eternal security attack the assurance of salvation as “easy-believism.” They claim that assurance of salvation is a get-out-of jail card and encourages sin. This is inaccurate because like any good father, our Heavenly Father will discipline his children.

"For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,And He scourges every son whom He receives."

It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. (Hebrews 12:6-11)


The discipline of the Lord can include physical ailments and even physical but not spiritual death (1 Corinthians 11:27-31). It also includes loss of eternal reward but not loss of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:10-15) and loss of authority in the kingdom to come (Luke 19:11-27). However even those people who come under such discipline are still children of God and will inherit eternal life.



*Thanks for reading my long post. Anyways in addition to Biblical knowledge that you cannot lose your salvation I also have experiential knowledge to back it up. I wandered away from God when I was going through trials a couple of years ago but the Spirit of God still was abiding me and drew me back. If you believe that you have lost your salvation please contact me through a private message or arrange to meet me in person.*

[christianwarrior]

Anyways there is a question you could ask someone if you want to know if they have put their trust in Christ. If you were to die tonight and had to stand before God, what would you say to Him when He asks you why He should let you into heaven? Most of the nonbelievers would answer something along the lines of being a good person, their works, going to church, etc. This question is not perfect as some believers might get tripped up by the question and a non-believer well versed in Scripture might give you the right answer. Still the question is worth asking in most cases.

[jlay]

we have recent threads where this subject is already being vigorously discussed.

[PaulSacramento]

I don't think that ANYONE is qualified to make a statement on anyone's faith ( or lack thereof) and I think that is why, for some, works became so important because they could SEE for themselves who they THOUGHT was saved.
This is an erroneous view of course since only God knows who is and who isn't and only God decides who is and who isn't.
No man can judge the faith or another BUT it is very easy for man to judge the works of another.
You can see the appeal that may have for some.

[crochet1949]

There is also the verse that says by their fruits you shall know them. What does a person's life reflect? If they say they are a believer but their life does not reflect that , then that would be cause for concern. And the person who is truly concerned Can /Should take time to befriend the person and in a concerned manner ask them about their conversion. Share You testimony of your own salvation experience and then be prepared to lead the person to Christ or maybe it will challenge them to adjust the priorities in their own life. Occasionally we All need encouragement to live a more Christ-like life.

[jpbg33]

you are wrong on the parable of the sower. If you look at what is says and not at what you want it to say. You will see it is really talking about people who do not respond to an alter call (this is the seed that fell on the way side) and the people that get saved and stay saved (this is the seed that fell on the good soil) and the people that get saved and then latter fall away because it gets to hard (this is the seed that fell on the rocky and thorny ground). We know that they were saved because our salvation is our life and with out it we are dead. So if you read and pay attention to what it is saying you will notice that one seed didn't come up at all so there was no life there but the other 3 all sprang up for at lest a while. Jesus dose not make mistakes and if he said there was life then there was. not only that but the bible says you shall know them by there fruits. If what you are saying is true then the bible lies. Because we can't really tell that way.

[LittleHamster]

The switch from non-salvation to salvation occurs top-down , i.e. it begins in the spirit and is reflected in the lower personality (the human being).

You can do absolutely nothing on your own. The process is irreversible. Can human beings reverse the spirit ?

If you think God would take back his perfect decision to save someone then you would lower God to the status of a moron.




ie., it does not work like this........

Joe: "Hey God, I've been good for the last 20 years"

God: "OK, you're Saved"

Joe: "But I stole a beer last year"

God: "OK. you're going to hell"

Joe: "But I paid the money back"

God: "OK, you're Saved"

Joe: "But then I shot some low-life in the head"

God: "OK. you're definitely going to hell"

Joe: "But he was going to blow up thousands"

God: "OK, you're definitely Saved"

Joe: "Then I bonked the neighbor's wife"

God: "OK. you're going to hell"

Joe: "But I then showed her the way, truth and life by bringing her to accept Jesus as savior"

God: "OK, you're Saved"

[jpbg33]

I can't reverse the spirit but God can. All I can do is accept, reject or walk away. you see if you are forced to take it then it is no longer a free gift. One more thing God can not lie and if he said there was life then there was. Jesus didn't teach ones saved always saved. If he did then why did he say " Mat_5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. ". So why pluck it out if all you have to do is get saved. Because according to ones saved always saved ones you are saved there is know need plucking anything out. So if Jesus didn't teach it then it is not true.

[B. W.]

Amazing thing happened the other day. The same thing that has been going on for centuries. Our little tikes, when they are between 2 to 6 years old so often get so made at parents and grandparents for getting them into the car to leave the park. They yell and scream, "I hate you, You are the meanest Mommy and Daddy in the whole world, Leave me alone, I hate you!"

Now, what do we do? Say to them, "I respect your free will so much that, here, you are free to go, bye little ones, forever bye!"

Imagine if we did this, let the little ones go because they have a temper-tamper, what folks would say!

We do not let them go, do we? No, we strap them in the car kicking and screaming and take them home and give them a bath. Yet, with God, we have the audacity to claim that after only one temper tamper hissy fit, that God would say, bye forever?

I am thankful God is not like that and so often takes us home screaming and gives a well deserved bath, and a loving home, forever.

John 10:28 is so true...
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[Danieltwotwenty]

Amazing thing happened the other day. The same thing that has been going on for centuries. Our little tikes, when they are between 2 to 6 years old so often get so made at parents and grandparents for getting them into the car to leave the park. They yell and scream, "I hate you, You are the meanest Mommy and Daddy in the whole world, Leave me alone, I hate you!"

Now, what do we do? Say to them, "I respect your free will so much that, here, you are free to go, bye little ones, forever bye!"

Imagine if we did this, let the little ones go because they have a temper-tamper, what folks would say!

We do not let them go, do we? No, we strap them in the car kicking and screaming and take them home and give them a bath. Yet, with God, we have the audacity to claim that after only one temper tamper hissy fit, that God would say, bye forever?

I am thankful God is not like that and so often takes us home screaming and gives a well deserved bath, and a loving home, forever.

John 10:28 is so true...
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You forgot to add that like kids, we will all grow up and realise our temper tantrums were stupid and that our parents were right.

[LittleHamster]

Well said B.W. You took the analogy right out of my mouth !


The Bible contains many passages which appear to say clearly and unambiguously that once a person gains salvation, they can never lose it. Examples are:

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (NIV) The key words in this verse are "whoever believes...shall...have eternal life." "Whoever" certainly appears to be an totally inclusive term, granting salvation to everyone who believes - irrespective of their behavior. It would seem to apply to persons of both sexes, all races, all nationalities, all sexual orientations, all degrees of ability, etc. The "shall" makes salvation definite and permanent.

John 6:37: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Presumably the phrase "him that cometh to me" refers to anyone who is saved. Jesus apparently says that he will never reject a saved individual.

John 6:40: "....every one which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" This passage appears to imply that every person who is saved will be raised from the dead; none of those who had been saved will be lost. The first phrase is presumably not to be taken literally, as people today cannot visually see Jesus during their life on earth. The NIV translates it as "everyone who looks to the Son." The Amplified Bible says "everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him..." This is an enormous expansion of the original Greek and introduces many concepts not present in the Greek original.

John 10:28-29: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." This is a very strong statement on the permanence of salvation. Jesus appears to state that after he gives an individual eternal life, they shall never perish but continue to have eternal life, even though others might try to interfere.

Romans 8:38-39: "...neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." This passage does not directly mention salvation. However, a connection might be inferred: to have the love of God could means that the person is saved and will go to Heaven; to be subject to the wrath of God would mean that they were unsaved and will end up in Hell.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22: "...[God] anointed us. set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." (NIV) This passage apparently states that, once we are saved, God guarantees our salvation; we are secure.

1 John 4:13-17: "By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit...and the one who abides in love abides in God and God abides in him...we may have confidence in the day of judgment..." This passage appears to indicate that once saved, we can have confidence that we will enter heaven.

(source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sava2.htm)

[LittleHamster]

you are wrong on the parable of the sower. If you look at what is says and not at what you want it to say. You will see it is really talking about people who do not respond to an alter call (this is the seed that fell on the way side) and the people that get saved and stay saved (this is the seed that fell on the good soil) and the people that get saved and then latter fall away because it gets to hard (this is the seed that fell on the rocky and thorny ground). We know that they were saved because our salvation is our life and with out it we are dead. So if you read and pay attention to what it is saying you will notice that one seed didn't come up at all so there was no life there but the other 3 all sprang up for at lest a while. Jesus dose not make mistakes and if he said there was life then there was. not only that but the bible says you shall know them by there fruits. If what you are saying is true then the bible lies. Because we can't really tell that way.

Hi jpbg33,

Sorry if I responded a bit abruptly before, I tend to get carried away with my points of view sometimes.

As for the parable of the sower and the seed, I believe there is only one seed that will be given salvation at some point - the one that fell on good soil. The other seeds were not in a state of salvation to begin with - so they were not saved, nor were they saved and then later un-saved.

best wishes.

[Stu]

5. There are those who used to profess Christ but no longer. They have not lost their salvation. They might be choosing to deny Christ, like Peter did, due to social pressure and distress. Those people still have salvation. However there is also another possibility. They might be choosing to betray Christ, like Judas Iscariot, because they never put their faith in Christ. On the outside it looked like they were Christians but they never were and never had salvation.

And what of people who were once Christians and saved but who now deny Christ - say someone who converted to Islam from Christianity.

I think it's dangerous to say that a Christian can do whatever they want whenever they want and they will still be saved.

[RickD]

5. There are those who used to profess Christ but no longer. They have not lost their salvation. They might be choosing to deny Christ, like Peter did, due to social pressure and distress. Those people still have salvation. However there is also another possibility. They might be choosing to betray Christ, like Judas Iscariot, because they never put their faith in Christ. On the outside it looked like they were Christians but they never were and never had salvation.

And what of people who were once Christians and saved but who now deny Christ - say someone who converted to Islam from Christianity.

I think it's dangerous to say that a Christian can do whatever they want whenever they want and they will still be saved.

Stu,

Are you saying that a Christian can lose eternal life if he still commits certain sins? So, in your mind, a believer keeping salvation is directly tied to the person's own ability to stop sinning?

[jpbg33]

Lets don't forget kids don't have free well to do what they wont to do. As parent we keep them out of the road or get them out of it if they get in it and punish them if they get in it. God gives us free well to do what we want to do. He doesn't get you out of the road. He punishes you while you are in the road to make you walk back out of the road your self. But if you stay in the road then you get ran over and die. Its all about free well. one more thing. The bible says "Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ". So if Christians were able to do these thing and still go to heaven then Jesus is a liar because all these people would not be going to hell just unsaved ones would. We know Jesus does not lie. A few other verses "1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.".