Evidence for God from Science

melanie wrote:The fact of the matter is, no matter how many Christians tie in evolution into their beliefs, it has had a massive detrimental effect on people relying on God instead of man to answer the question of 'why are we here, how did we get here ect'.

We have always relied on man for these questions, God has been oh so silent on these matters, ancient man wrote the books of the Bible and modern man has interpreted them into beliefs concerning the creation of everything, how is this any different from using science to study what God has already created.

There have been enough independent studies to show how many people have rejected not only Christianity but religion in favour of evolutionary beliefs. Studies have also shown in the last hundred years the drop by percentage of scientists who claim to believe in God, there has been a fast and steady decline. I was just looking at a study the other day, I will try and find it and attach, but I don't think its really necessary, I think most people would logically see that scientist 100 years ago, 50 years ago up to the modern day have by and large turned to secular scientific beliefs completly outside of God. Does that mean evolution is inaccurate, of course not, what it does mean is the theory of evolution has had the effect of causing multitudes of people to turn away from God.

I would doubt that it has anything to do with actual science as a method of studying the world around us, I think personally the reason Christendom is in decline is because of certain creation ministries pushing people away with their narrow view of the Bible. Pretty much every young atheist I have met has said they left religion because of the Y.E.C approach of their church (don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with Y.E.C, but there is something wrong with a dogmatic approach to it) and the rejection of modern science, does this mean that Y.E.C is drawing people away from Christ, I don't think so. Unfortunately these young Christians didn't realise they could reconcile their beliefs about the world with their belief in God quite easily, but alas the damage has already been done by well meaning but misguided people. Really this is just blame shifting, science isn't at fault for this, people are at fault for this, we are broken and it is we that drive people away from Christ. The problem with these studies is that they can be biased, depending how how much information they admit and how much information they omit, what type of questions they asked, and what questions they decided not to ask, and a whole other host of other possibilities that could potentially colour the results. I for one prefer to actually ask people and I would seriously call into question the results of any study that claimed that science or evolution turned people away from God, based on my own life experiences I have found this to be far from true. I highly doubt there is a single reason for people leaving the faith, I think it is way over simplifying the problem and correlation does not always equal causation.

I have my own story of how science and evolution drew me to God and I am not the only one, many, many other people share the same story as myself, so there is that also, how come it drives some people away but draws others closer, to me that screams that it actually has nothing to do with science but has more to do with the actual people themselves. With that same line of reasoning you could say the Bible, philosophy, logic, reason etc.... pull people away from God, but we know that is just ridicules in the extreme. [1Corinthians 1:18] indicates that it is not logic or reason that drives people away, they are blind and cannot see.

I think people just need to take responsibility for their actions, both on behalf of believers and non believers and stop blaming everything else.

The burning question of 'why are we here' has been answered through science (not definitively, but convincingly enough for many) so as to deny the existence of God. The fact that you and many Chrsitians also believe in evolution in no way diminishes the fact that the vast majority of scientist would say and the scientific community as a whole (I have a whole heap of quotes from scientists and scientific communities) that science has proved that the universe, earth and humans were created by chance and completely outside of the will of God. Or as one scientist put it 'God is dead'.

Science deals with the how not the why, science hasn't and cannot prove why we are here, it is just not a subject that science deals with. You have quotes from scientists, so what, they are people with opinions based on their own beliefs, they mean nothing to actual science. You seem to be conflating science with beliefs or more to the point the beliefs of people who use science, people's beliefs are not science, science is just a method of discovering how the world works, it can no more answer why questions than a new born baby can. Science actually points towards a creator, everything we discover about this universe screams an intelligent mind behind it all, the complexity, the fine tuning, there being a beginning at the bang, the symmetry etc... etc.... etc.... Evolution to me points at an intelligent mind that has painted a masterpiece and has had me in awe at the powerful imagination of our creator, I find it exquisitely beautiful.


I am keenly interested to hear other's thoughts on this subject, especially from fellow T.E's.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

melanie wrote:The fact of the matter is, no matter how many Christians tie in evolution into their beliefs, it has had a massive detrimental effect on people relying on God instead of man to answer the question of 'why are we here, how did we get here ect'.

We have always relied on man for these questions, God has been oh so silent on these matters, ancient man wrote the books of the Bible and modern man has interpreted them into beliefs concerning the creation of everything, how is this any different from using science to study what God has already created.

There have been enough independent studies to show how many people have rejected not only Christianity but religion in favour of evolutionary beliefs. Studies have also shown in the last hundred years the drop by percentage of scientists who claim to believe in God, there has been a fast and steady decline. I was just looking at a study the other day, I will try and find it and attach, but I don't think its really necessary, I think most people would logically see that scientist 100 years ago, 50 years ago up to the modern day have by and large turned to secular scientific beliefs completly outside of God. Does that mean evolution is inaccurate, of course not, what it does mean is the theory of evolution has had the effect of causing multitudes of people to turn away from God.

I would doubt that it has anything to do with actual science as a method of studying the world around us, I think personally the reason Christendom is in decline is because of certain creation ministries pushing people away with their narrow view of the Bible. Pretty much every young atheist I have met has said they left religion because of the Y.E.C approach of their church (don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with Y.E.C, but there is something wrong with a dogmatic approach to it) and the rejection of modern science, does this mean that Y.E.C is drawing people away from Christ, I don't think so. Unfortunately these young Christians didn't realise they could reconcile their beliefs about the world with their belief in God quite easily, but alas the damage has already been done by well meaning but misguided people. Really this is just blame shifting, science isn't at fault for this, people are at fault for this, we are broken and it is we that drive people away from Christ. The problem with these studies is that they can be biased, depending how how much information they admit and how much information they omit, what type of questions they asked, and what questions they decided not to ask, and a whole other host of other possibilities that could potentially colour the results. I for one prefer to actually ask people and I would seriously call into question the results of any study that claimed that science or evolution turned people away from God, based on my own life experiences I have found this to be far from true. I highly doubt there is a single reason for people leaving the faith, I think it is way over simplifying the problem and correlation does not always equal causation.

I have my own story of how science and evolution drew me to God and I am not the only one, many, many other people share the same story as myself, so there is that also, how come it drives some people away but draws others closer, to me that screams that it actually has nothing to do with science but has more to do with the actual people themselves. With that same line of reasoning you could say the Bible, philosophy, logic, reason etc.... pull people away from God, but we know that is just ridicules in the extreme. [1Corinthians 1:18] indicates that it is not logic or reason that drives people away, they are blind and cannot see.

I think people just need to take responsibility for their actions, both on behalf of believers and non believers and stop blaming everything else.

The burning question of 'why are we here' has been answered through science (not definitively, but convincingly enough for many) so as to deny the existence of God. The fact that you and many Chrsitians also believe in evolution in no way diminishes the fact that the vast majority of scientist would say and the scientific community as a whole (I have a whole heap of quotes from scientists and scientific communities) that science has proved that the universe, earth and humans were created by chance and completely outside of the will of God. Or as one scientist put it 'God is dead'.

Science deals with the how not the why, science hasn't and cannot prove why we are here, it is just not a subject that science deals with. You have quotes from scientists, so what, they are people with opinions based on their own beliefs, they mean nothing to actual science. You seem to be conflating science with beliefs or more to the point the beliefs of people who use science, people's beliefs are not science, science is just a method of discovering how the world works, it can no more answer why questions than a new born baby can. Science actually points towards a creator, everything we discover about this universe screams an intelligent mind behind it all, the complexity, the fine tuning, there being a beginning at the bang, the symmetry etc... etc.... etc.... Evolution to me points at an intelligent mind that has painted a masterpiece and has had me in awe at the powerful imagination of our creator, I find it exquisitely beautiful.


I am keenly interested to hear other's thoughts on this subject, especially from fellow T.E's.

Science as you percieve it points a creator, as it should
But I disagree, science has attempted to answer the question 'why' and the answer is by pure chance. The 'why' is there is no 'why'. Scientists conclude that we don't have a real purpose any more than a plant, bird or insect. We are animals that work no different, although more evolutionary superior to other species, maximising what causes pleasure and minimising that which brings pain.
For the most part christians have become the laughing stock of the academic, scientific circles. Which you touched on as to why a YEC belief has hampered in some ways not helped. So the alternative has been looking for the 'gaps' in the Big Bang and evolution, scientific theories and claiming that there 'proof' of God lies. Whether it be who or what was responsible in those moments before the Big Bang, how something comes from nothing ect. God of the gaps.
Yet here we have an infinite God, with infinite knowledge, omniscient and man who is finite. It is impossible for the finite to even start to grasp the infinite. We can try, give it a damn good educated go, but we do not come close to 'cutting the mustard'. Yet in our finite knowledge we have wedged an infinite God into the 'gaps' of our theories. As times goes by, we will continue to 'fit Him in' where our finite knowledge takes us and continue down the 'yellow brick road' but never seriously moving any closer, as that would be theoretically impossible.

Here is, on a more personal note, where my conundrum lies. I am going back to uni to finish a psychology degree and gain my honours so I can be a practising clinical psychologist. The science of the mind and behaviour. But yet I have to reconcile my passion with a field that attempts to answers questions completely outside of God. My bigger passion. My studies lead me into a field that answers a belief in God as an evolutionary by product. Love The Lord with all your mind, all your heart and all your soul. Yes it is a study of the mind, given to us by God, but I assure you in those studies, in the scientific field of psychology God is not present, in fact He is explained away by evolutionary psychology.

melanie wrote:Science as you percieve it points a creator, as it should

But I disagree, science has attempted to answer the question 'why' and the answer is by pure chance. The 'why' is there is no 'why'.

That is naturalism, which is philosophy, not science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism ... losophy%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

Scientists conclude that we don't have a real purpose any more than a plant, bird or insect. We are animals that work no different, although more evolutionary superior to other species, maximising what causes pleasure and minimising that which brings pain.

You are confusing scientists opinions with actual science, those scientists obviously adhere to pure naturalism which is a philosophy and not science.

None of this attempts to address the points that I made that there are more human and spiritual reasons for people rejecting God rather than Science or Evolution.

melanie wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

melanie wrote:The fact of the matter is, no matter how many Christians tie in evolution into their beliefs, it has had a massive detrimental effect on people relying on God instead of man to answer the question of 'why are we here, how did we get here ect'.

We have always relied on man for these questions, God has been oh so silent on these matters, ancient man wrote the books of the Bible and modern man has interpreted them into beliefs concerning the creation of everything, how is this any different from using science to study what God has already created.

There have been enough independent studies to show how many people have rejected not only Christianity but religion in favour of evolutionary beliefs. Studies have also shown in the last hundred years the drop by percentage of scientists who claim to believe in God, there has been a fast and steady decline. I was just looking at a study the other day, I will try and find it and attach, but I don't think its really necessary, I think most people would logically see that scientist 100 years ago, 50 years ago up to the modern day have by and large turned to secular scientific beliefs completly outside of God. Does that mean evolution is inaccurate, of course not, what it does mean is the theory of evolution has had the effect of causing multitudes of people to turn away from God.

I would doubt that it has anything to do with actual science as a method of studying the world around us, I think personally the reason Christendom is in decline is because of certain creation ministries pushing people away with their narrow view of the Bible. Pretty much every young atheist I have met has said they left religion because of the Y.E.C approach of their church (don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with Y.E.C, but there is something wrong with a dogmatic approach to it) and the rejection of modern science, does this mean that Y.E.C is drawing people away from Christ, I don't think so. Unfortunately these young Christians didn't realise they could reconcile their beliefs about the world with their belief in God quite easily, but alas the damage has already been done by well meaning but misguided people. Really this is just blame shifting, science isn't at fault for this, people are at fault for this, we are broken and it is we that drive people away from Christ. The problem with these studies is that they can be biased, depending how how much information they admit and how much information they omit, what type of questions they asked, and what questions they decided not to ask, and a whole other host of other possibilities that could potentially colour the results. I for one prefer to actually ask people and I would seriously call into question the results of any study that claimed that science or evolution turned people away from God, based on my own life experiences I have found this to be far from true. I highly doubt there is a single reason for people leaving the faith, I think it is way over simplifying the problem and correlation does not always equal causation.

I have my own story of how science and evolution drew me to God and I am not the only one, many, many other people share the same story as myself, so there is that also, how come it drives some people away but draws others closer, to me that screams that it actually has nothing to do with science but has more to do with the actual people themselves. With that same line of reasoning you could say the Bible, philosophy, logic, reason etc.... pull people away from God, but we know that is just ridicules in the extreme. [1Corinthians 1:18] indicates that it is not logic or reason that drives people away, they are blind and cannot see.

I think people just need to take responsibility for their actions, both on behalf of believers and non believers and stop blaming everything else.

The burning question of 'why are we here' has been answered through science (not definitively, but convincingly enough for many) so as to deny the existence of God. The fact that you and many Chrsitians also believe in evolution in no way diminishes the fact that the vast majority of scientist would say and the scientific community as a whole (I have a whole heap of quotes from scientists and scientific communities) that science has proved that the universe, earth and humans were created by chance and completely outside of the will of God. Or as one scientist put it 'God is dead'.

Science deals with the how not the why, science hasn't and cannot prove why we are here, it is just not a subject that science deals with. You have quotes from scientists, so what, they are people with opinions based on their own beliefs, they mean nothing to actual science. You seem to be conflating science with beliefs or more to the point the beliefs of people who use science, people's beliefs are not science, science is just a method of discovering how the world works, it can no more answer why questions than a new born baby can. Science actually points towards a creator, everything we discover about this universe screams an intelligent mind behind it all, the complexity, the fine tuning, there being a beginning at the bang, the symmetry etc... etc.... etc.... Evolution to me points at an intelligent mind that has painted a masterpiece and has had me in awe at the powerful imagination of our creator, I find it exquisitely beautiful.


I am keenly interested to hear other's thoughts on this subject, especially from fellow T.E's.

Science as you percieve it points a creator, as it should
But I disagree, science has attempted to answer the question 'why' and the answer is by pure chance. The 'why' is there is no 'why'. Scientists conclude that we don't have a real purpose any more than a plant, bird or insect. We are animals that work no different, although more evolutionary superior to other species, maximising what causes pleasure and minimising that which brings pain.
For the most part christians have become the laughing stock of the academic, scientific circles. Which you touched on as to why a YEC belief has hampered in some ways not helped. So the alternative has been looking for the 'gaps' in the Big Bang and evolution, scientific theories and claiming that there 'proof' of God lies. Whether it be who or what was responsible in those moments before the Big Bang, how something comes from nothing ect. God of the gaps.
Yet here we have an infinite God, with infinite knowledge, omniscient and man who is finite. It is impossible for the finite to even start to grasp the infinite. We can try, give it a damn good educated go, but we do not come close to 'cutting the mustard'. Yet in our finite knowledge we have wedged an infinite God into the 'gaps' of our theories. As times goes by, we will continue to 'fit Him in' where our finite knowledge takes us and continue down the 'yellow brick road' but never seriously moving any closer, as that would be theoretically impossible.

Here is, on a more personal note, where my conundrum lies. I am going back to uni to finish a psychology degree and gain my honours so I can be a practising clinical psychologist. The science of the mind and behaviour. But yet I have to reconcile my passion with a field that attempts to answers questions completely outside of God. My bigger passion. My studies lead me into a field that answers a belief in God as an evolutionary by product. Love The Lord with all your mind, all your heart and all your soul. Yes it is a study of the mind, given to us by God, but I assure you in those studies, in the scientific field of psychology God is not present, in fact He is explained away by evolutionary psychology.

Sorry Dan, I accidentally hit the submit instead of the save draft button when I was mid way through. Had to stop to deal with kids having mates here for a sleep over but not actually sleeping, this is my response in full.
On a side note, regardless of our differences, you have always been a gentleman. I like conversing with you

To answer the topic question:
Absolutely not.
Not only has it drawn ME closer to God, but there is a long list of Christian scientists that will state the same.

Perhaps I am a redundant breed of Christian that believes in scripture as it is written;
God created Adam and Eve.
Genesis is clear, He didn't start the process of evolution and sit back and patiently wait for the outcome, God created man, in the garden of Eden as per the Genesis account.
When do we decide that we take scripture on face value? At what point does it become divine and accurate?
And we wonder why the validity has been questioned, perhaps because there is no conviction.
I have been on more than one or two occasions been accused of stupidity and naïveté by my peers and colleagues for holding onto such beliefs.
I have twice had an IQ test, the second to just make sure the first was right lol. I take it with a grain of salt, man's 'test' of intelligence, I have always questioned its accuracy. Nevertheless I scored both times very high, just shy of a very elite score. The only reason I mention it is because I have been accused in the past of being simple minded, unable to grasp scientific concepts, because I believe in scripture as it is written.
If that makes me 'dumb' so be it!

melanie wrote:Perhaps I am a redundant breed of Christian that believes in scripture as it is written;
God created Adam and Eve.
Genesis is clear, He didn't start the process of evolution and sit back and patiently wait for the outcome, God created man, in the garden of Eden as per the Genesis account.
When do we decide that we take scripture on face value? At what point does it become divine and accurate?
And we wonder why the validity has been questioned, perhaps because there is no conviction.
I have been on more than one or two occasions been accused of stupidity and naïveté by my peers and colleagues for holding onto such beliefs.
I have twice had an IQ test, the second to just make sure the first was right lol. I take it with a grain of salt, man's 'test' of intelligence, I have always questioned its accuracy. Nevertheless I scored both times very high, just shy of a very elite score. The only reason I mention it is because I have been accused in the past of being simple minded, unable to grasp scientific concepts, because I believe in scripture as it is written.
If that makes me 'dumb' so be it!

Yes, Genesis is clear:
God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and He did so by creating Adam from the Earth and Eve from Adam.
Now, Genesis is interesting because, as some scholars note, we have what appears to be TWO creation stories.
One that is about the general goings on on the Planet, Genesis 1) and one about a specific place in particular ( Garden in Eden) Genesis 2.
One notes the creation order is different in both accounts, but in regards to Man:

Genesis 1:
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Yet in Genesis 2, we have a different sequence and Woman coming from Man, after Man.

So, we simply can't state that Genesis tells us that Man and Woman were created in the Garden and that somehow that is a statement on the creation of ALL humans everywhere because, to be honest, the two accounts are not in sync and Genesis 2 makes the clear statement that it is talking about events in the Garden of Eden in particular.

My point is not to start are exegesis argument or what not, but to simply remind that a theological story does NOT = a scientific statement of fact.

I Timothy 6:20,21 KJV
"...Keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called; Which some professing have erred concerning the faith..."

The ideas of the world developing on its own are as old as the devil and modern science has just caught the same train.

In Revelation 21:27 it says that nothing which defiles, works an abomination or makes lies will enter heaven. That's very clear isn't it?
To mess with the creation account is to mess with God's word. As far as the Bible is concerned you cannot enter heaven if you perpetuate lies. The devil is not stupid and has a number of watered down versions of creation for everyone to lose their salvation. He does not care which error we imbibe, whether it has an ounce of evolution in it or the whole lot, because he knows that it will make a ship wreck of our faith.

The whole point of the theories of evolution is to pry the world away from the word of God, and it has succeeded.
People have gone completely stupid on it, they can no longer understand basic English and wrest the scriptures to their own destruction.
But now they believe in a dozen false creation versions, all which deny the creative ability of God, and replace the truth with ideas that please the degenerate and proud heart, which has taken upon itself the authority to turn the truth into a lie. If that is not the spirit of anti-christ I don't know what is.

While claiming to be wise they have become fools. In essence their religion teaches that "we are over developed, accidental, surviving freaks of the material."

Does a false theory cause one to err "concerning the faith" ? Yes, that's what the Bible teaches.

Dismissing God's creative power by telling watery theories and lies about it, is "profane," it's an "abomination."

I so wish this thread wasn't started lol. It just going to turn into another anti-evolution thread.

Ok, I have to say this and be very clear about it:
*puts on moderator hat*

Disagree all you want BUT do NOT accuse a fellow believer of being in league with Satan because He/She agrees with evolution.

Got it?

Again, to be as clear as I can:

Believing in evolution does NOT mean a person is in league with Satan or doesn't believe in Christ or the bible or is anti-God so do NOT make ANY such accusations to ANY fellow BELIEVERS, understood?

Dismissing God's creative power by telling watery theories and lies about it, is "profane," it's an "abomination."

Saying that a Christian that believes in evolution is dismissing God's creative powers is like saying that believing that weather patterns happen without God's direct control is dismissing God's dominion over nature.

It's just plain silly.

neo-x wrote:I so wish this thread wasn't started lol. It just going to turn into another anti-evolution thread.

Yea sorry Neo-X, I thought this might happen also, people just can't stay on point and no one has even attempted to attack my points of that it is not necessarily evolution, science, philosophy, drugs, alcohol, morality etc.. Etc.. That draws people away from God but rather it is a spiritual problem we have and these things are just excuses we use, if it wasn't evolution it would be something else. Everything can be used for evil, including the Bible, including theology, even Jesus' words can be used as an excuse to turn from God, but that in no way makes those things bad, it just makes people bad.

I would like to quote Paul from another thread as I think it is appropriate and backs my point, I hope that is ok Paul.

PaulSacramento wrote: God is in ALL, He SUSTAINS ALL.
IF evolution is true then it is of God.
IMO, Evolution will only lead people away from Christ if people put more faith in what they THINK, than in Christ.

and

PaulSacramento wrote:It isn't about NOT thinking, it is about thinking that what you THINK you know about evolution somehow means that Christ didn't live, die and was resurrected so that all the believe in Him are saved.
That is the whole point of the gospel and Christianity.
Salvation Through Christ.

Just to add to that, evolution as a theory and science as a method does not lead people away from Christ, it is what you think about these subjects that will lead you away, it is your own heart condition that will draw you away and not knowledge.

To answer the topic question:

In some cases, yes. In some cases, it doesn't.

Some people feel their faith "shaking" when Science finds out the answer to something that had no answer before, due to the "God of the Gaps" effect. Some other, however, see these answers as evidence for God's good and/or intelligent design.

Starhunter wrote:I Timothy 6:20,21 KJV
"...Keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called; Which some professing have erred concerning the faith..."

The ideas of the world developing on its own are as old as the devil and modern science has just caught the same train.

In Revelation 21:27 it says that nothing which defiles, works an abomination or makes lies will enter heaven. That's very clear isn't it?
To mess with the creation account is to mess with God's word. As far as the Bible is concerned you cannot enter heaven if you perpetuate lies. The devil is not stupid and has a number of watered down versions of creation for everyone to lose their salvation. He does not care which error we imbibe, whether it has an ounce of evolution in it or the whole lot, because he knows that it will make a ship wreck of our faith.

The whole point of the theories of evolution is to pry the world away from the word of God, and it has succeeded.
People have gone completely stupid on it, they can no longer understand basic English and wrest the scriptures to their own destruction.
But now they believe in a dozen false creation versions, all which deny the creative ability of God, and replace the truth with ideas that please the degenerate and proud heart, which has taken upon itself the authority to turn the truth into a lie. If that is not the spirit of anti-christ I don't know what is.

While claiming to be wise they have become fools. In essence their religion teaches that "we are over developed, accidental, surviving freaks of the material."

Does a false theory cause one to err "concerning the faith" ? Yes, that's what the Bible teaches.

Dismissing God's creative power by telling watery theories and lies about it, is "profane," it's an "abomination."

Starhunter,

Please read this:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =1&t=32715

Please do not question another believer's salvation because you disagree with his creation stance. This will not be tolerated here.