Evidence for God from Science

I put this post here because this might sound like a very philosophical issue. However, this has more to do with logic than with philosophy. At least, I think. You take your own conclusions, ok? Here's a (big) theory I saw the other day:

God created a great quantity of angels before creating man, right? One of them, as we know, was Satan, who later convinced some other angels to rebel against God. Now, let's see...why did Satan rebel against God? Apparently, pride. Ok. And apparently, Satan wanted to "receive the worship due to God alone" (mr. Deem dixit). We get it.

But here's the deal: why did Satan WANT to do what he did in the first place? Before you answer "pride", consider this: why was pride in Satan's character at all? Who or what put pride in his character?

Now, let's back up a little. So...God created angels. Don't worry, this theory doesn't accuse God of creating evil! But let's see...when God created angels, they seem to have appeared with a personality/character, right? Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to, you know, have an opinion. Or changing it. Like Satan did. So...where did that character come from?

Did God mold each angel's personality? Probably not, because that would make those angels robots, with a personality forced on them. And if God molded their personality, then why would He create a particular angel which would actually feel like confronting Him?

So, if God didn't mold the angel's personality...who or what created it?

Here's where randomness shows up!

To prevent angels from being just robots blindly accepting God's rules, God probably couldn't have molded their personality. So what could He do to create personalities without forcing them on His creations? Randomness, that's how! Randomness is basically a tool for someone to use in order to obtain a result he/she can't influence. So, God could have created randomness! It makes pretty sense that God created that tool, right? Consequently, the angels' character wasn't programmed by God, but by a blind tool which just creates stuff with pot luck.



Now...this clearly implies something problematic: if Satan's will was not programmed by God, but by a blind tool which takes pot luck...then it's not Satan's fault that he wanted to rebel against God! He just happened to be the unlucky angel that didn't got lucky with the personality he was given!

But does this mean Satan's rebellion was God's fault?!

Absolutely not!

It was randomness' fault! If randomness created Satan's personality, then neither God nor Satan were guilty of the appearance of a wish to rebel in Satan's personality! Randomness is guilty! And it totally makes sense, since this is what happens when a blind, non-intelligent tool is given the power to do stuff: bad things happen! Totally logical! It's like giving a gun to a baby and know that it can both have a good time with it or shoot someone! That's why we leave this things to "adults"!

Ok, this is the theory. Now, I say: if this is true, the whole "fault" thing has no place, right? This is not about whose fault it was; it's about the "fact" that it is nobody's fault! Can you blame randomness for creating bad stuff? No, because randomness doesn't think! So, ultimately...
...it is nobody's fault!

Wow! That sure would be a relief, right? In the end we find out it was nobody's fault. No one is guilty. We can all relax at last and get back to being friends!

(yeah...I wish. Unfortunately, my experience tells me that, even believing that someone's bad actions were actually nobody's fault, we can't always tolerate the other's character. So the decision would be to be happy with the ones we not only tolerate, but also like, while letting the other be happy with the ones who appreciate him/her. Apart from the ones we don't like, maybe...but with the ones who we like and who like us. I see this happening everyday. School groups, you know...)

[Ezekiel 28:12] says that Lucifer was created perfect, without sin, just thought I might point that out.

I am aware of that. But the issue is still there: if he was created as an angel, where did the wish of rebelling came from? Why didn't another angel had that wish?

MBPrata wrote:I am aware of that. But the issue is still there: if he was created as an angel, where did the wish of rebelling came from? Why didn't another angel had that wish?

From being gifted with a will that is free to make moral decisions, just the same as us. Some, angels choose good (the will of God) and some angels chose bad (not the will of God). Why did they choose bad and some chose good is a great question and one that I don't think we can answer yet.

Ok, fair enough that you answer that. But do we agree that, at some point, Satan felt like rebelling?

If so, that will must have come from some place. Where would that be?

MBPrata wrote:Ok, fair enough that you answer that. But do we agree that, at some point, Satan felt like rebelling?

If so, that will must have come from some place. Where would that be?

Absolutely he rebelled at some point and the will to rebel would have came from himself (I am sorry if this isn't sufficient but I really don't know where else it could come from). I don't understand why we even require randomness to conclude that Satan made a choice of his own free will?

Absolutely he rebelled at some point and the will to rebel would have came from himself (I am sorry if this isn't sufficient but I really don't know where else it could come from). I don't understand why we even require randomness to conclude that Satan made a choice of his own free will?

I've already explained, but all right...Satan's will to rebel came from himself, right? But Satan was created, so that implies its PERSONALITY was created. So, who or what created that personality? God? Not likely, since that would prevent Satan's free will. So...randomness! As the theory states, randomness is a tool God created so He could create beings without interfering in their personality.

Why would he need to be created with personality intact, wouldn't he be like a child, learning and growing in understanding? Not physically growing, but mentally growing, all under instruction from God of course.

Sorry I am trying to understand your logic, I am not meaning to be dense.

Why would he need to be created with personality intact, wouldn't he be like a child, learning and growing in understanding?

Well, that could happen. Two things, though.

One: it would be difficult for him to develop intelligence and/or logical thought to form a solid opinion and being able to convince several angels to change their mind. Motive: intelligence and similar stuff are (also?) formed through challenges/problems that must be overcome/solved. So, if God created angels in His kingdom, it seems to peaceful and problem-free for a consciousness to develop such solid thoughts...

Two: Children are not tabula rasa, they're already born with tendencies (which can be developed or not). That's why three babies raised exactly the same way will have completely distinct personalities at the age of 2 or 3 years. It's something they practically don't control...how they will react when facing conflict, pain or something like that for the first time.
So...were did his tendencies come from?

Thank you for taking the time to explain, I am starting to get it more now.

MBPrata wrote: One: it would be difficult for him to develop intelligence and/or logical thought to form a solid opinion and being able to convince several angels to change their mind. Motive: intelligence and similar stuff are (also?) formed through challenges/problems that must be overcome/solved. So, if God created angels in His kingdom, it seems to peaceful and problem-free for a consciousness to develop such solid thoughts...

That makes sense.

Now what if they were created with perfect knowledge, if they understand what is good and what is not, could not that knowledge lead them to make a choice for bad instead of good without a randomised personality, couldn't their decisions on what they choose shape who they are and not who they are shape their decisions?

Two: Children are not tabula rasa, they're already born with tendencies (which can be developed or not). That's why three babies raised exactly the same way will have completely distinct personalities at the age of 2 or 3 years. It's something they practically don't control...how they will react when facing conflict, pain or something like that for the first time.
So...were did his tendencies come from?

I am not sold on the idea that just because we are born a certain way they we cannot choose to be something else or that we are even born with any sort of personality at all. But for the sake of the argument, lets say for example that Satan was made with a randomised set personality and he chooses pride because he was made a prideful being, I don't see it follows that he is absolved of his choice. lets say a psychopath is born a psychopath and he chooses to manipulate people, now just because his natural inclination is to manipulate people does not excuse the concious decision to do so. I could quote a whole heap of Bible verses that say that we must resist our natural desires and choose good instead, so why cannot the same apply to Satan, I feel like this is blame shifting and an attempt to remove responsibility from a concious decision. If I myself gave in to my natural desires, trust me you would not want to be around at that time.

Anyway I hope I have understood you correctly, if I have not please be patient.

Cheers for now

Now what if they were created with perfect knowledge, if they understand what is good and what is not, could not that knowledge lead them to make a choice for bad instead of good without a randomised personality

Nah; if every single angle was "born" with the exact same knowledge, all of them would have made the same choice. There has to be a difference between their personalities.

couldn't their decisions on what they choose shape who they are and not who they are shape their decisions?

Not likely; in order to make a decision, one must think "Yeah...I agree with this, so I take the decision to be like this". But agreeing with something implies personal opinions, aka personality. So, personality and, after that, decisions. Not the opposite.

I am not sold on the idea that just because we are born a certain way they we cannot choose to be something else or that we are even born with any sort of personality at all. But for the sake of the argument, lets say for example that Satan was made with a randomised set personality and he chooses pride because he was made a prideful being, I don't see it follows that he is absolved of his choice. lets say a psychopath is born a psychopath and he chooses to manipulate people, now just because his natural inclination is to manipulate people does not excuse the concious decision to do so. I could quote a whole heap of Bible verses that say that we must resist our natural desires and choose good instead, so why cannot the same apply to Satan, I feel like this is blame shifting and an attempt to remove responsibility from a concious decision. If I myself gave in to my natural desires, trust me you would not want to be around at that time.

I think you understood the idea. But this still bugs me, for this reason: let's assume, for a while, that most angels were "born" with a personality that gives them a 50% will to follow God's rules and a 50% will to rebel against Him. Fair enough. Now, what if Satan (or any other angel, for that purpose) was "born" with a 1% will to follow God's rules and a 99% will to rebel against Him! Is it fair to blame him for choosing to rebel? I mean, at this percentage, he is practically possessed by the will to rebel! And this 1-99 difference could totally happen; randomness doesn't think, so it could create bad things. As the theory suggests, allowing a non-intelligent being to do stuff can come out waaaaay badly!

Cheers for you!

MBPrata wrote:Nah; if every single angle was "born" with the exact same knowledge, all of them would have made the same choice. There has to be a difference between their personalities.

I am not sure if personality affects our ability to choose, one psychopath can choose to manipulate people while another chooses not too. (Sorry to keep picking on psychopaths, I actually have a friend who has a personality disorder (sociopath) and is Christian, it is quite interesting to hear his thoughts on life, but as always I digress). I don't see that it necessarily follows that beings who start out the same will remain the same if they have the free will to make concious decisions. It would be a good experiment with human cloning if such a thing was deemed morally ok, I am not sure if it is. I guess identical twins would be our best example of two exact copies who are raised the same but have divergent personalities.

Not likely; in order to make a decision, one must think "Yeah...I agree with this, so I take the decision to be like this". But agreeing with something implies personal opinions, aka personality. So, personality and, after that, decisions. Not the opposite.

I don't think decisions are always based on agreeing with something, maybe fear of consequences, maybe social constructs or some other reason I cannot think of right now. I know there is some people I would love to stamp out of existence and I feel that doing so could have many consequences, both in the here now and eternal consequences.

I think you understood the idea. But this still bugs me, for this reason: let's assume, for a while, that most angels were "born" with a personality that gives them a 50% will to follow God's rules and a 50% will to rebel against Him. Fair enough. Now, what if Satan (or any other angel, for that purpose) was "born" with a 1% will to follow God's rules and a 99% will to rebel against Him! Is it fair to blame him for choosing to rebel? I mean, at this percentage, he is practically possessed by the will to rebel! And this 1-99 difference could totally happen; randomness doesn't think, so it could create bad things. As the theory suggests, allowing a non-intelligent being to do stuff can come out waaaaay badly!

I am starting to get it and we may have to agree to disagree, mind you this has been very productive as a thought experiment, so I must applaud you on it, I have really enjoyed the exchange so far. Now back to the topic.

Maybe there is a chance for a certain type of personality (and this random personality creator may exist) but that still does not invalidate the concious choice that one has to make, now granted that that choice may be harder for some than others (we all have our areas we struggle with), but we can still make the choice no matter how hard it may be or how much we want to follow our natural urges. Do you think we should excuse a psychopath if he happens to kill someone, after all is he not just dancing to his DNA, is he at fault and should he be locked away from society? I feel like if the angels get a free pass then the same rules must be universal and apply to us and why would we feel that we require justice when it's not really that person fault as he was just "born that way"?


Looking forward to your reply.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:[Ezekiel 28:12] says that Lucifer was created perfect, without sin, just thought I might point that out.

That was poetic licence on the part of the writer.
Only God is perfect.

Some angels rebelled because they had free will to rebel.
As all of God's creation has free will.
And yes, where these is free will there is unpredictability ( though not to God of course).
Does free will come from a randomness "process" that God has given His creation? a process that allows for individuals to be just that, individuals?
Perhaps.