Evidence for God from Science

I still like to talk and discuss end-time bible prophecy.So I wanted to make an open thread to discuss it, hopefully respectful if we disagree.Although I'm probably not as sharp about it as I once was.

I believe in a rapture and I believe the Antichrist will be revealed before the rapture happens,now some may think that makes me a mid-trib rapturist or a post-trib rapturist but I do not consider myself either of them as I lean more between pre and mid,you might say I'm just being different but I don't think I am it is from my understanding of bible prophecy that I believe this as I don't believe God has appointed us to wrath but at the same time I don't agree with the mid-trib reasons or the post-trib rapture take on things.

I believe the Antichrist will be Islamic although it tells us in Daniel that "he will not regard the god of his fathers" however the Antichrist deceives the world including Muslims who will see the Anti-christ as their majde,they will be deceived at first until it is too late when he claims he is God sitting in the temple as God.

On the other side of things we have a "lamb with two horns" or the false prophet working with the Anti-christ to bring in the mark of the beast in order to buy,sell or do business,this will be a one world government,economy and religion in which you must worship the Anti-christ.But this " lamb with two horns" will be a fake or corrupt christian figure,he could be a corrupt pope but he will be seen as a reprentative of christianity,but it will be a false version and it is this " lamb with two horns" that does false signs and lying wonders,making fire come down out of heaven,etc deceiving the world,the two horns represent trying to unite the east and the west to bring in the mark of the beast and to put your allegiance to the Anti-christ.Revelation 13.

I believe the Anti-christ comes from Babylon which is Iraq today,however the Babylonian empire stretched much further than just Iraq in its day and so we need to consider this. I also believe this is why Babylon is coming back and Iraq is being rebuilt which was prophesied in Isaiah 13:19-20 but it is going to be destroyed in Jesus's second coming which is what Isaiah 13 is really about.It should be known that Babylon was conquered by the Medes and Persians and as we know is still inhabited to this day but won't after it is rebuilt kinda and destroyed when Jesus returns.I believe the reason Jesus destroys Iraq is because it is the homeland of the Anti-christ. I also believe the seven heads on the scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17 reveals the Anti- Christ comes from Babylon,which is Iraq today and I can explain why and how if needed.

So tell me what you think or how you see things.

Hey Abel, this will be an interesting talk ^_^

I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I'd be interested in hearing what is holding you back on that view? Especially, why do you think the antichrist will be revealed before the rapture? That makes me think of:
2 Thessalonians 2:6–8
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, jwhom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The Holy Spirit will be removed and will no longer restrain the evil one. We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and that won't be reversed. We will be taken with Him. What do you think?

I also believe the antichrist will be Islamic. I've researched end time events from many different angles and what is very interesting, is that most belief systems believe we are coming to an end of this age which will bring forth a new age. The occult calls the antichrist maitreya the christ and looks like he will be Islamic. Although he will claim to be their majde, he won't claim allah as the only god. So it will be interesting to see the reaction. This false christ will come into the world and cause division for the sake of peace. Liberalism is one of the for-fronts of preparing masses of all religions and cultures to accept this all inclusive messiah.

I think the false prophet might be Islam. The lamb with two horns, I could see that representing the vatican, the pope. Although I haven't looked into the details. The pope being the for-front of a global religion would be very effective. And its been interesting to see how he's been uniting all major religions within the last few months.. Islam is a global religion too, but exclusively so..

I've heard of the anitchrist coming from Babylon. Want to elaborate about that for me? I've also heard that Babylon might be referring to Saudi Arabia.

Mallz wrote:Hey Abel, this will be an interesting talk ^_^

I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I'd be interested in hearing what is holding you back on that view? Especially, why do you think the antichrist will be revealed before the rapture? That makes me think of:
2 Thessalonians 2:6–8
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, jwhom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The Holy Spirit will be removed and will no longer restrain the evil one. We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and that won't be reversed. We will be taken with Him. What do you think?

I also believe the antichrist will be Islamic. I've researched end time events from many different angles and what is very interesting, is that most belief systems believe we are coming to an end of this age which will bring forth a new age. The occult calls the antichrist maitreya the christ and looks like he will be Islamic. Although he will claim to be their majde, he won't claim allah as the only god. So it will be interesting to see the reaction. This false christ will come into the world and cause division for the sake of peace. Liberalism is one of the for-fronts of preparing masses of all religions and cultures to accept this all inclusive messiah.

I think the false prophet might be Islam. The lamb with two horns, I could see that representing the vatican, the pope. Although I haven't looked into the details. The pope being the for-front of a global religion would be very effective. And its been interesting to see how he's been uniting all major religions within the last few months.. Islam is a global religion too, but exclusively so..

I've heard of the anitchrist coming from Babylon. Want to elaborate about that for me? I've also heard that Babylon might be referring to Saudi Arabia.

Here is why I believe the anti- Christ will be revealed before the rapture happens 2nd Thessalonians 2:1,2 and 3. " Now we beseech you,brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,and by our gathering together unto him,That ye be not soon shaken in mind,or be troubled,neither by spirit,nor by word,nor by letter as from us,as that the day of Christ is at hand.Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,except there be a falling away first,and that man of sin be revealed,the son of perdition;

This tells us the Antichrist will be revealed before the rapture happens so I could no longer be a pre- tribber,but another reason is because Daniel tells the Antichrist enters peacefully among the fattest places of the province and that word fattest refers to oil. The Antichrist will be peaceful at first so no need for a pre-trib rapture.It takes him time to deceive the world but he will finally after all of these years establish peace in the middle east,something nobody else has been able too do,there will be peace until he breaks the peace agreement but the Jews will have their temple built by then with help from at least 1 of the 2 witnesses Revelation 11.I agree with you about 2nd Thess 2:6-8. Keep in mind no Muslim would allow it now,but will trust who they think is their majde.

Well blend in what I said about Isaiah 13 with this in Revelation 17. In order to understand where the Antichrist arises from I believe we've got to understand what the 7 heads on the scarlet colored beast are and they are empires that have controlled Israel and they are 1.Egypt 2. Assyria 3. Babylon 4. Medo Persia 5. Greece 6. Rome 7. Future revised roman one world government.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was,and is not;and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,and go into perdition:and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder,whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world when they behold the beast that was,and is not,and yet is.. Then verse 10 tells us "And there are 7 kings:five are fallen,and one is,and another is not yet come; and when he cometh,must continue a short space. Verse 11 "and the beast that was,and is not,even he is the eighth,and is of the 7,and goeth into perdition. This means gentiles.

Notice there are 7 heads on the beast but the 7th future one continues a short space, this is the revised roman one world government system coming in the future,it only lasts a short space because it will be taken over and turned into the mark of the beast system which will be the 8th and final kingdom.

The key to unlocking where the Antichrist comes from is in verse 8 where it tells us the beast was(it was around before John) is not(it is not around in Johns time,Rome was)and yet is( it comes back in the future and if you go back and examine the 7 heads above,Babylon is the only one it can be that has fallen away and yet will come back. Iraq has lots of oil by the way.
Now blend this with Isaiah 13:19-20 and what I think about it and I think you'll see rebuilt Iraq will be destroyed when Jesus returns in his 2nd coming,it is the anti-christs homeland.

Now some places in the bible refer to the Antichrist as the Assyrian but know that the Babylonian empire conquered the Assyrian empire so they are both right,the Babylonian empire stretched and covered Assyria too.

I'd like to take a closer look at a breakdown of 2nd Thessalonians. And I'm not assuming anything about your knowledge or current beliefs. I'd like to present this and get your thoughts.
Lets start with 2 Thessalonians 1:4

so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.

1) The church is going through tribulation and persecutions (expectations during the church age) and suffer which will be our evidence of worthiness to be counted in the kingdom of God, for we hold to patience and faith.
2) Those who trouble the church will receive tribulation.
a. The troubled church will receive rest (rapture) with us (who is talking? An apostle, the church will go to where the apostles are) upon revelation of Lord Jesus from heaven. (notice He is revealed from heaven and not 'coming down to Earth'.
b. Tribulation will start for all who do not know(intimacy?) God.
c. Tribulation will also be for those who know/understand gospel but do not obey it (lack of intimacy with His Word aka Jesus).
3) After divine tribulation is handed out, God separates the un-intimate humans from the intimate ones for everlasting separation when he comes (comes down to Earth) in that Day (known day when He is glorified, the end of tribulation and the coming of His kingdom)

No word of antichrist in the first chapter.
Lets move onto the next bit 2 Thessalonians 2

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The church in the letter thought they missed the rapture and were afraid 'that Day' was coming and had missed the 'day of Christ'. This reveals what will come before 'that Day'

1) Do not be deceived, there will be a falling away
2) man of sin revealed and blasphemes God
3) 'that Day' comes, wrath of God starts.

Then the finish.. which reassures the 'day of Christ' has not come, but this is what will precede it:

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1) Spirit of Elohim taken out of satans way which induces the rapture
2) lawless one revealed by the work of satan and his pawns.
3) pawns will believe satan for they are strongly diluted.
7) He comes to set up His kingdom first by destroying the lawless one and his pawns

I'll respond to the rest of your post later, wanted to get this started, though.

Mallz wrote: a. The troubled church will receive rest (rapture) with us (who is talking? An apostle, the church will go to where the apostles are) upon revelation of Lord Jesus from heaven. (notice He is revealed from heaven and not 'coming down to Earth'.

Does being revealed from Heaven mean that He must not come down to Earth as well?

Mallz wrote: Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Are you saying that the days I've put in bold here are referring to two different days? Is it because one is capitalized?

Does being revealed from Heaven mean that He must not come down to Earth as well?

Yes, and I'll use other scriptures from different books to demonstrate the fuller reason why.

Are you saying that the days I've put in bold here are referring to two different days? Is it because one is capitalized?

Yes. Titles, spellings, capitalization, and other such instances that show differences in what is being said I think should be payed attention to.

I want to post scriptures from other books to show the holistic harmony between the two different days and the timings. Thessalonians, Daniel, Revelations, Matthew and Ezekial (off the top of my head) all fit together but paint different parts of the picture (more like a puzzle to be fit together). (Gimme a lil time, I'm in the middle of my work week [12 hour night shifts]. hopefully I'll post more later today/tonight)

Edit: P.s. The main difference between the days (besides what will happen on them) is that one is unpredictable and imminent, while the other is timed to the T (the final countdown!! ^_^) following undeniable and obvious signs

Mallz wrote: Yes. Titles, spellings, capitalization, and other such instances that show differences in what is being said I think should be payed attention to.

Agreed as long those differences exist in the Greek. I am not sure about this myself. I sadly cannot read Greek, so must defer to scholars. To me in English the only real difference is the capitalization since it refers to the same day by saying "that Day." Which day? The one he just mentioned before. The day of Christ. That's how it clearly reads to me.
Both the NKJV and KJ21 capitalize the second day mentioned in verse 3. I assume you're quoting from the NKJV?

Bear in mind that:
In the NIV, the second day isn't capitalized.
ASV doesn't use a second day at all, but merely refers to the same day just mentioned in the last sentence. ("for it will not be")
ESV doesn't capitalize the second "day."
The KJV, nor the authorized KJV capitalizes the second day.
NASB doesn't give a second day, but refers to the first like the ASV.
NLT doesn't capitalize the second day.
NRSV doesn't capitalize the second day.

Not saying that's the end of the story or anything, but there definitely isn't a consensus that they are clearly two different days from what I can tell by various versions so far. I would maintain that the NKJV doesn't intend for the second capitalized Day to mean a separate day, but merely being sure we understand that it refers back to the day of Christ just mentioned.

That's just my thought so far.

Mallz wrote: I want to post scriptures from other books to show the holistic harmony between the two different days and the timings. Thessalonians, Daniel, Revelations, Matthew and Ezekial (off the top of my head) all fit together but paint different parts of the picture (more like a puzzle to be fit together). (Gimme a lil time, I'm in the middle of my work week [12 hour night shifts]. hopefully I'll post more later today/tonight)

I will await your findings.

Mallz wrote: Edit: P.s. The main difference between the days (besides what will happen on them) is that one is unpredictable and imminent, while the other is timed to the T (the final countdown!! ^_^) following undeniable and obvious signs

Would it be incorrect to say that the Day of the Lord becomes imminent after the undeniable and obvious signs take place?

Agreed as long those differences exist in the Greek

Agreed. Although I'd rather use Aramaic/Hebrew for both the OT and NT.
Which leads me to think we should do an Otiot study on this!
I'd need to borrow a Strongs...

Would it be incorrect to say that the Day of the Lord becomes imminent after the undeniable and obvious signs take place?

Yeah, that sentence contradicts itself :p
Also the 7 year tribulations start is known. And after the start 7 years are left, exactly. So when Christ comes down will be known to the day.

I will await your findings.

Going to go to bed, I'll respond more tonight.

Mallz wrote: Agreed. Although I'd rather use Aramaic/Hebrew for both the OT and NT.
Which leads me to think we should do an Otiot study on this!
I'd need to borrow a Strongs...

Am I wrong to think that the great majority of our earliest manuscripts for the NT are in Greek?

Mallz wrote: Yeah, that sentence contradicts itself :p

Forgive me, but I just don't see how. What's wrong with saying "We know X will happen, but not until Y. So therefore after Y happens, we can expect X imminently."

Forgive me, but I just don't see how. What's wrong with saying "We know X will happen, but not until Y. So therefore after Y happens, we can expect X imminently."

Sorry for the confusion, in the context that we know when a 7 year tribulation starts meaning we will know when it ends (at the very least we know when there will be 3 1/2 years left). There's no imminence there. The day Christ comes with His bride to Earth to establish His kingdom will be known by everyone who reads scripture and see the signs for the countdown clock.
What do you think?

Am I wrong to think that the great majority of our earliest manuscripts for the NT are in Greek?

There are a lot in Greek, but not originally written in Greek, check out this link.

http://www.yashanet.com/studies/matstudy/mat3b.htm

I'm not able to give the demonstration for the holistic approach I see until tomorrow, but I will then!

(And I'm seeing the Otiot study for the terms used is going to be difficult, so I might not be able to accomplish it for a little while. I still need more resources to begin)

In the meantime, do you see more holes?

Mallz wrote:I'd like to take a closer look at a breakdown of 2nd Thessalonians. And I'm not assuming anything about your knowledge or current beliefs. I'd like to present this and get your thoughts.
Lets start with 2 Thessalonians 1:4

so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.

1) The church is going through tribulation and persecutions (expectations during the church age) and suffer which will be our evidence of worthiness to be counted in the kingdom of God, for we hold to patience and faith.
2) Those who trouble the church will receive tribulation.
a. The troubled church will receive rest (rapture) with us (who is talking? An apostle, the church will go to where the apostles are) upon revelation of Lord Jesus from heaven. (notice He is revealed from heaven and not 'coming down to Earth'.
b. Tribulation will start for all who do not know(intimacy?) God.
c. Tribulation will also be for those who know/understand gospel but do not obey it (lack of intimacy with His Word aka Jesus).
3) After divine tribulation is handed out, God separates the un-intimate humans from the intimate ones for everlasting separation when he comes (comes down to Earth) in that Day (known day when He is glorified, the end of tribulation and the coming of His kingdom)

No word of antichrist in the first chapter.

Yes I tend to agree however the tribulation and persecutions are really all about being a christian,For those who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution,so we should already expect it as Christians,even Jesus told us the world would hate us for his names sake.God is honest with us about persecution and tribulation but this is separate from the 7 year tribulation period when the Antichrist is here.I think we agree about everything else,just wanted to point that out.

Lets move onto the next bit 2 Thessalonians 2

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The church in the letter thought they missed the rapture and were afraid 'that Day' was coming and had missed the 'day of Christ'. This reveals what will come before 'that Day'

1) Do not be deceived, there will be a falling away
2) man of sin revealed and blasphemes God
3) 'that Day' comes, wrath of God starts.

Then the finish.. which reassures the 'day of Christ' has not come, but this is what will precede it:

I think here you overlooked the gathering together unto him part which is referring to the rapture so it happens after the falling away and the Antichrist being revealed.It says that day will not come unless there be a falling away and the Antichrist is revealed.This was the thing that changed my mind about pre-trib,plus some of the other things I mentioned that I realized after I got what this says.Hopefully this doesn't divide us though as I'm just showing why I see it the way I do,not trying to say you're wrong,hopefully you can see why I see it like I do.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1) Spirit of Elohim taken out of satans way which induces the rapture
2) lawless one revealed by the work of satan and his pawns.
3) pawns will believe satan for they are strongly diluted.
7) He comes to set up His kingdom first by destroying the lawless one and his pawns

I'll respond to the rest of your post later, wanted to get this started, though.

I agree with you here but I don't see how it reinforces a pre-trib rapture which is why I see it like you do,this seems to be a neutral belief that doesn't reinforce either position.Perhaps I should remind you I'm real close to being pre-trib but I think the Antichrist will be revealed first but not long after he's revealed,nobody knows exactly when and to those watching we will know when the Antichrist is revealed although it seems like every US president is the anti-christ.

I think the Antichrist will be revealed first but not long after he's revealed

If I remember correctly scripture does show rapture before Antichrist, but I remember it being muddy. So my memory could be off too. We'll have to review the scriptures involved to see if we can piece it together.

although it seems like every US president is the anti-christ.

Just about every earthly ruler these days is a pawn (some un-knowing, most knowingly) of shatan.
I think its obvious through scripture to see these, and even more obvious through study of the occult.


Which makes me remember, isn't there two usages of anti-christ that are separate from each other? I can't look up scripture tonight...

Mallz wrote: There are a lot in Greek, but not originally written in Greek, check out this link.

http://www.yashanet.com/studies/matstudy/mat3b.htm

In regards to the passage mentioned on that site, I would certainly agree that it shows evidence that that specific quote may not have been spoken in Greek. But even so, do we have any early manuscripts of NT books in Hebrew? That predate the Koine Greek? Are we to translate it from Greek back to Hebrew and then say that this was the original text? I think not. Not until we find many Hebrew/Aramaic NT manuscripts that predate the Greek.
Here is a counter article from a Hebrew Christian site as well: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articl ... ek_nt.html

Mallz wrote: In the meantime, do you see more holes?

Holes in the pre-trib interpretation? Yes, I think so. I'll try and compile a list.

Mallz wrote: 1) Spirit of Elohim taken out of satans way which induces the rapture

What if the "restrainer" mentioned isn't actually the Holy Spirit?
There is good evidence to suggest that the "restrainer" mentioned is actually Michael the Archangel:

http://bibleprophecytalk.com/michael-th ... ans-2-6-7/

I assume you must think that the verse means the Holy Spirit because the "He" is capitalized in the version you posted. Once again, in other versions the he is not capitalized and I even see a footnote in the NKJV after "He" that says "or he"

Mallz wrote: Sorry for the confusion, in the context that we know when a 7 year tribulation starts meaning we will know when it ends (at the very least we know when there will be 3 1/2 years left). There's no imminence there. The day Christ comes with His bride to Earth to establish His kingdom will be known by everyone who reads scripture and see the signs for the countdown clock.
What do you think?

I believe the post-trib, pre-wrath view suggests that the rapture occurs imminently at some point within the latter 3 1/2 years after the 6th seal is opened, but before the Day of the Lord begins. (The Day of the Lord is likely longer than a single day)

As an aside, I don't believe the Antichrist will come from Islam, but I suppose the possibility exists.
I think the Antichrist will actually claim to be the Jewish Messiah and will make the claim partly based on his Jewish heritage. Remember, antichrist doesn't mean "against" Christ, it more properly means "instead of" Christ or a "substitute" for Christ.

Mallz wrote:
...Just about every earthly ruler these days is a pawn (some un-knowing, most knowingly) of shatan...

Just curious, is there a specific reason you're using shatan, the Islamic term for satan?