Theory on OEC and death

[jesmotguin]

I want to note first off that this is not a claim that I've stumbled upon some extra biblical concept. More or less, this has been on my mind for a while now considering the points of old earth creationism. I will admit that I do not take a first stance on old earth creation but instead consider it one of two defensible positions on genesis. It is on that account that I am putting this here out of worry. Worry that I see the sense in a theory I came up with. And this theory may or may not be heretical. And because of that I take it very seriously. And if it is heretical, I would like some peace of mind that it is in fact in conflict with the bible so I can drop it. So I do ask that if you come in with the intent of debunking this, please be detailed. As just saying, no this is wrong is going to just put me between a rock and a hard place.

I bring this here because I'm the only person at my church who even entertains old earth creation and while they know my stance on the subject, this discussion would be shut down before it began.

Also I should note that while I have spent a long time doing various studies of the bible, I have never received any formal teaching.

Now on to the theory

Before I start I would like to point out that is something that only works with the old earth creation model, specifically tailored by this website which presents the most coherent model I've seen so far.

First off the truth in the bible that is the basis on why I come to this conclusion

1. The flesh is sinful. Galatians 5:19-21 1 John 2:15-17 Romans 8:7
2. Knowledge of good an evil convicts of sin we would have otherwise been innocent of. Romans 5:13-14 Romans 7:9-13

To start off we examine the subject of the original sin.

This sin consisted of two parts.

1. God told adam and eve not to eat of the fruit. (note that the fruit is the fruit of knowledge of good and evil) Gen 2:17

In this first action Adam and Eve are given one vestige of knowledge of good and evil. A good choice, don't eat of the apple and a bad choice, eat the apple.

2. The knowledge of good and evil. This is really why the human race is guilty of sin 2-∞. Why sin passed on to the rest of mankind and we are all guilty of it. Because we now know sin and actively participate in it. And we also pursue further knowledge of good and evil and by doing so pervert the original knowledge given to us.

This is also now what separates us from animals. As animals do sinful activities but cannot be counted as sinful because they do not know any better. However there is a discrepancy here as sin is still committed. While the hyena steals from other animals, he does not know what he is doing is wrong. However it is still wrong. Well how does the law handle this when sin is being committed by one who cannot be convicted of it. This I give you is the reason animals would suffer a physical death. Because while their souls are not sinful, their bodies are condemned for their nature. Thus there would need to be a point of metamorphosis where the body dies and something that is without a sinful nature takes it's place. This was originally intended for humans as well but due to our actions, we are now condemned along with the body.

Now this has all been pointed out because Adam is a type for Jesus.

So first let me get in to sacrifices. Because the concept of a lamb sacrifice is important to this.

The lamb is by nature one of the purest animals on the face of this earth. It is docile by nature and beautiful to see. It is also innocent to sin as it does not know sin. However for all it's merits, it is not a perfect sacrifice but simply a temporary one.

Now this is where I really worry about this.

As Adam is a type for Jesus, Adam brought sin into the world by letting his flesh influence his soul in to making the wrong choice. Originally Adam would have had a sinless soul and a sinful body resulting in a physical but not spiritual death.

In response to that, the living god came down to earth. Having of himself a holy soul (not sure that word does it justice). Now because his spirit was holy and he entered in to the flesh of man. Here also is a turn around because while every other body to ever walk the earth was not holy and was condemned. The soul of Christ knew good and evil and influenced the body to be sinless. And thus the first and only sinless body to ever walk the earth which could not be found worthy of death payed the price for all of mankind. Thus making the death of a worthy body atone for the unworthy souls of the world in contradiction to Adams action.

Like I said, some of the subject here do not need to be covered as they are covered on the website, specifically the subject of pre-fall death.

[Kurieuo]

Hi Jes,

Welcome to the forums. Glad you just jumped in.

What do you mean by this: "Originally Adam would have had a sinless soul and a sinful body resulting in a physical but not spiritual death." (the underlined part)

Instead I believe we are created good. To be human, physical or otherwise, is not defined by sin. Sin just became a human state of affairs after.

I'm not really sure what you are getting at, or where it comes from, these ideas of sinless/sinful soul and body concepts.

[abelcainsbrother]

I want to note first off that this is not a claim that I've stumbled upon some extra biblical concept. More or less, this has been on my mind for a while now considering the points of old earth creationism. I will admit that I do not take a first stance on old earth creation but instead consider it one of two defensible positions on genesis. It is on that account that I am putting this here out of worry. Worry that I see the sense in a theory I came up with. And this theory may or may not be heretical. And because of that I take it very seriously. And if it is heretical, I would like some peace of mind that it is in fact in conflict with the bible so I can drop it. So I do ask that if you come in with the intent of debunking this, please be detailed. As just saying, no this is wrong is going to just put me between a rock and a hard place.

I bring this here because I'm the only person at my church who even entertains old earth creation and while they know my stance on the subject, this discussion would be shut down before it began.

Also I should note that while I have spent a long time doing various studies of the bible, I have never received any formal teaching.

Now on to the theory

Before I start I would like to point out that is something that only works with the old earth creation model, specifically tailored by this website which presents the most coherent model I've seen so far.

First off the truth in the bible that is the basis on why I come to this conclusion

1. The flesh is sinful. Galatians 5:19-21 1 John 2:15-17 Romans 8:7
2. Knowledge of good an evil convicts of sin we would have otherwise been innocent of. Romans 5:13-14 Romans 7:9-13

To start off we examine the subject of the original sin.

This sin consisted of two parts.

1. God told adam and eve not to eat of the fruit. (note that the fruit is the fruit of knowledge of good and evil) Gen 2:17

In this first action Adam and Eve are given one vestige of knowledge of good and evil. A good choice, don't eat of the apple and a bad choice, eat the apple.

2. The knowledge of good and evil. This is really why the human race is guilty of sin 2-∞. Why sin passed on to the rest of mankind and we are all guilty of it. Because we now know sin and actively participate in it. And we also pursue further knowledge of good and evil and by doing so pervert the original knowledge given to us.

This is also now what separates us from animals. As animals do sinful activities but cannot be counted as sinful because they do not know any better. However there is a discrepancy here as sin is still committed. While the hyena steals from other animals, he does not know what he is doing is wrong. However it is still wrong. Well how does the law handle this when sin is being committed by one who cannot be convicted of it. This I give you is the reason animals would suffer a physical death. Because while their souls are not sinful, their bodies are condemned for their nature. Thus there would need to be a point of metamorphosis where the body dies and something that is without a sinful nature takes it's place. This was originally intended for humans as well but due to our actions, we are now condemned along with the body.

Now this has all been pointed out because Adam is a type for Jesus.

So first let me get in to sacrifices. Because the concept of a lamb sacrifice is important to this.

The lamb is by nature one of the purest animals on the face of this earth. It is docile by nature and beautiful to see. It is also innocent to sin as it does not know sin. However for all it's merits, it is not a perfect sacrifice but simply a temporary one.

Now this is where I really worry about this.

As Adam is a type for Jesus, Adam brought sin into the world by letting his flesh influence his soul in to making the wrong choice. Originally Adam would have had a sinless soul and a sinful body resulting in a physical but not spiritual death.

In response to that, the living god came down to earth. Having of himself a holy soul (not sure that word does it justice). Now because his spirit was holy and he entered in to the flesh of man. Here also is a turn around because while every other body to ever walk the earth was not holy and was condemned. The soul of Christ knew good and evil and influenced the body to be sinless. And thus the first and only sinless body to ever walk the earth which could not be found worthy of death payed the price for all of mankind. Thus making the death of a worthy body atone for the unworthy souls of the world in contradiction to Adams action.

Like I said, some of the subject here do not need to be covered as they are covered on the website, specifically the subject of pre-fall death.

I would like to know first when you think angels were created and when did Lucifer rebel and sin against God causing a third of the angels to rebel against God with him?So when were the angels created?

Also I detect Jehovah Witness doctrine are you a Jehovah's Witness?Claiming that Adam was the first Jesus as he was the first human given free-will to obey God or not.

[neo-x]

Hi K, just wanted to comment on this,

"Instead I believe we are created good. To be human, physical or otherwise, is not defined by sin. Sin just became a human state of affairs after."

Physical Death is not "bad" as long as its not a death in sin. Infact there is nothing wrong with the concept of "death", its the sin which is the problem.

[Kurieuo]

Sure. I don't disagree with you there. And you make I think a valid point.
We're perhaps saying the same thing in different ways.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "death in sin", but I don't see physical death as "bad" either.
It is the sin that's the issue and that came when humanity turned against God.

What I was trying to say in a confusing way, was that there is nothing inherently bad about our "body" while our "soul" is all good.
That's a rather Gnostic way of looking at things -- spirit = good; flesh = bad. I disagree with that.