Evidence for God from Science

I opened this thread so EssentialSacrifice could show us why he thinks Ankerberg is a heretic. Anyone who posts, Please keep to the topic of his teachings, without attacking him personally.

I have read numerous Ankerberg posts and have found the following the most convicted of the rest. Please take the time to read and then look at the definitions I have posted and tell me if you agree with their definitions. If so, we can continue, if not, the post is dead. There is no reason to continue...

http://www.jashow.org/wiki/index.php?ti ... dolatry%3f


heretic definition;
noun;
a person believing in or practicing religious heresy.
synonyms: dissenter, nonconformist, apostate, freethinker, iconoclast;
a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.

Idol; definition
noun:
an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
synonyms: icon, representation of a god, image, effigy, statue, figure, figurine, fetish, totem; graven image, false god, golden calf

Notice in this Meriam webster definition that god is spelled in lower case, non-capitalized, hence not in reference to the God.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:I have read numerous Ankerberg posts and have found the following the most convicted of the rest. Please take the time to read and then look at the definitions I have posted and tell me if you agree with their definitions. If so, we can continue, if not, the post is dead. There is no reason to continue...

http://www.jashow.org/wiki/index.php?ti ... dolatry%3f


heretic definition;
noun;
a person believing in or practicing religious heresy.
synonyms: dissenter, nonconformist, apostate, freethinker, iconoclast;
a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.

Idol; definition
noun:
an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
synonyms: icon, representation of a god, image, effigy, statue, figure, figurine, fetish, totem; graven image, false god, golden calf

Notice in this Meriam webster definition that god is spelled in lower case, non-capitalized, hence not in reference to the God.

Ok ES. The idol definition you have underlined, I agree with, and have no problem using that in this context.
But by heretic, I thought you meant "a person believing in or practicing religious heresy". Only because when I speak of heretics in a religious context, that's the definition I'm speaking about. But if you want to use " person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted", I'm fine with that one.
But if you're going with that definition of heretic, I think it's only fair to mention that as a protestant, he's not holding an opinion that's at odds with what's generally accepted in Protestantism. At least as far as that article is concerned.
If you had gone with my definition of heretic, you would have had an argument, at least regarding him being a heretic according to Catholicism. But again, Ankerberg is not Catholic, so I don't think it matters to him if Catholics think he's a heretic.

Thoughts?

I absolutely agree Rick. I am in hopes of showing that his words are not only at odds with me but also with you. Well see, also, thanks for the intro and keep it on topic. If I can listen to FL tell me my faith is mumbo-jumbo bullsh1t and keep my calm, I doubt anything else said will compromise my integrity. If it gets worse than that I'll simply bow out and be the better man.

Eucharistic Adoration: Worship or Idolatry?
Eucharistic adoration has increased dramatically in Roman Catholic Churches through­out America due to the urging of Pope John Paul II. Chapels have been set up in churches where Catholics can worship the real presence of Jesus. Some chapels offer Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration whereby the consecrated host is exposed and adored in a monstrance without interruption 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Parishioners commit them­selves to a specific day, and time (one hour) every week. When they look upon the Sacred Host, they believe they are looking upon transubstantiated Jesus, the almighty God, who created heaven and earth.

No Catholic believes they are looking at Jesus in person. If Ankerberg has been at this so long he knows this. He parses his words with truths and follows with incorrect or non substantial claims continually in here. This, in my opinion is expressly for the division of an "us against them" chasm he wishes to present to his congregation. That is heresy, the unconventional desire to divide the body of Christ here on earth. There is no reason for this. He doesn't have to believe as we do but to incorrectly demonstrate some self made conjecture as fact (as he does tragically and continually in this article) is not of God or His teaching on how to treat one another.... you find the verses, there are many detailing how we are to treat one another.

The monstrance is a silver or gold stand with rays depicting a sunburst and a circular window where the Eucharist is placed. It comes from the Latin word “monstrance” to show or to expose to view. They vary in sizes, but one of the largest is the Monstrance of Toledo, Spain. It measures over 8 feet, has 15 kilos of pure gold, 183 kg. of silver, many precious jewels and 260 small statues. The total weight is 218 kg. The words of Paul reflect how ungodly this practice of idolatry has become within the Roman Catholic Church. He wrote: “We ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man” (Acts 17:29). The prophet Jeremiah, speaking for God, also renounced this practice by saying: “Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; For his molten images are deceitful, and there is no breath in them. They are worthless, a work of mockery; in the time of their punishment they will perish (Jer. 10:14-15).

Here he strays from the importance of the Eucharist and attacks the "holder" of the Eucharist, the monstrance. Yes, many dollars have been worthlessly spent by all denominations on Mega churches, cathedrals of all denominations, all the ornamentation inside etc .. ... all are wrong IMO and the money should have been spent on the sick and the poor. It wasn't, it's too late to reverse what has been done is done, but, by no means is the Catholic church the only culpable church and, more importantly he is twisting the meaning of idolatry (see def.) in to Catholics are worshiping the monstrance. Do you guys worship the platter that holds your bread and grape juice when being passed among the congregation? Of course not, but I bet you hold your version of the Eucharist in great veneration. IMO, this is a mistake(falls short in importance) as it truly is the body and blood of Christ though transubstantiation and is the most highly adored earthly portion of God from God by God's command. Mathew 26:26-28. But more importantly, he has found a way to divide the body of Christ, us, with incorrect platitudes and an absolute twisting of Paul's version of Idolatry... there is no idol worship going on... see the definition of idol, he knows it if he is such a scholar, man of God and if so, he's doing it on purpose to deepen a divide unnecessarily.

You can throw out the Jer., Acts, and words of Paul, which make up 80% of the entire paragraph, because Catholics do not worship the monstrance, no matter how ornate, expensive... whatever... it's a holder of the body of Christ only... it's not even venerated... anything ... imagine loving pickles and worshiping the jar they come in ... more denominational divisional wedge and again, if he's half the man he's supposed to be theologically, he knows this and still spews venom.

I'm going to leave it here Rick. I am a very early riser with many chores and work to get done, and usually in bed by 10:00. I have given you enough to respond to and I hope it's ok if we resume in the a.m. I do have his entire article responded to so there is more. Is this what you were expecting ? Thoughts ?

I agree with John Ankerberg if Catholics believe Jesus becomes the wafer during communion.This would be another doctrine of man that is not of God.I wonder what Catholic in the past dreamed this up because you won't find it in the bible.I just refuse to go by doctrines of man that are not of God regardless of the denomination.When you take communion it should be in remembrance of Jesus's body being broken or crushed,bruised for us and the blood of Jesus shed for our sins and iniquities and not anything else.John 6:53,Isaiah 53:5,Luke 22:19-20.,etc.

ES,

You do realize that the article you posted wasn't written by John Ankerberg, don't you? It was written by Mike Gendron.

Maybe you could make the case that Ankerberg agrees with the content in the article, but I don't think we should be discussing Ankerberg as being a heretic because of something he wrote, when he didn't actually write it.

Is there something on Ankerberg's site that he actually wrote himself, that you want to discuss?


Otherwise, I'm fine with discussing the article you posted, but not under the idea that Ankerberg actually wrote it.

How do you want to proceed?

Benefits of Adoring the Eucharist

Pope Pius XI associated the worship of Christ in The Blessed Sacrament with expiation for sin. The Angel at Fatima and the Blessed Mother taught us to adore the Blessed Sacra­ment and make reparation for our sins.[1] John Paul II said “all the evils of the world could be overcome through the great power of Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration. The devil is put to flight wherever Jesus is adored in the Most Blessed Sacrament.”[2] He asked, “How will young people be able to know the Lord if they are not introduced to the mystery of his presence?”[3] Pope Paul VI proclaimed, “How great is the value of conversation with Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, for there is nothing more efficacious for advancing along the road of holiness!”[4]

Catholics can now enjoy all these benefits by adoring the Eucharist on the Internet. A site has been set up using a “web cam”.

This is completely false. The whole idea is to keep Christ company in person, not over the internet. You could participate over the internet if someone is physically there, but that is the only case and, of course he doesn't relay that. Cherry picking Catholicism again though, at best, a half truth without full explanation.

Ephesians 4:3-6 Eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Catholics view transubstantiation as the greatest of all miracles. Almighty God, who once humbled Himself to become man, now transforms Himself into lifeless, inanimate wafers.

Transubstantiation
noun:CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY
(especially in the Roman Catholic Church) the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining.

Transformation
noun:
a thorough or dramatic change in form or appearance.
"its landscape has undergone a radical transformation"
synonyms: change, alteration, mutation, conversion, metamorphosis, transfiguration, transmutation, sea change;

make up your mind here. He is knowledgeable of the difference between transubstantiation and transformation but deliberately changes his religious tone and wording from one of Catholic reverence to the real presence of the body and blood of Christ t(see def. above) to transforming (see def.above). He is a hypocrite within his own framework of the paragraph. Hopefully you see the difference Catholics feel for the transubstanative power of the presence of Christ and Transformers, robot in disguise. The wafer is a lifeless piece of bread until it is not, by the power of God in the process of transubstantiation.. he knows this and willingly changes words to meet his definition. The God of life does not turn himself in to a lifeless wafer he turns the wafer in to the most essential thing of life by the power of His command.

Titus 3:9-But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.


“Every consecration, is a miracle, greater by far than any other, really: for God to come into matter and transform it into himself is far greater than His creating that matter in the first place.”[5]“The body and blood...soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ...is truly, really and substantially contained” in the Eucharist.[6] Since each Eucharist contains the whole Christ, and since upwards of hundreds of wafers are consecrated during each mass, hundreds of Jesus Christs become physically present. Although the Vatican would never acknowledge it, this is a form of polytheism, the worship of many gods.

This is just absurd. Really, the God of the whole universe who has made everything ever known to man 10,000 hosts and wine all over the world simultaneously... it is said there is a mass said every minute of every day somewhere in the world to celebrate His sacrifice for us... and in each and every case there is only one Christ who implants His spiritual essence in to all the consecrated hosts universally, not "all the tens of thousands of Jesus' " that must become physically present. This is heresy, to not believe that the God of our fathers, who has performed miracle after miracle down through the ages, verified biblically, who is omnipresent, omniscient in all things cannot do what He has said He will do...

Mathew 26: 26-28
26While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying,28 "Drink from it, all of you;…for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.


He doesn't say here pretend like this is my body and blood, He doesn't say here "look, this is only a representation of Me".. He says for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Exodus 24:8 (as reference to biblical support of/to Christ's institution of the Last Supper)Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."

See here, this is the covenant of the old testament... is Moses using "sorta" blood to wash away the Jews iniquities... Did Abraham "sorta" pretend to sacrifice Isaac, shed his own son's rhetorical blood, did the money changers offer the blood sacrificial animals like lambs and doves for the "pretend" sacrificial benefits of cleansing .. no, of course not. All these instances of blood sacrifice were just a s real as the covenant they represented... just as is the real presence of body and blood is required for God's covenant of today with His chosen people of today.
putting limitations on God through your own words to satisfy the conditions of your point is wrong and is further tribute to the desire to separate the body of Christ with derisive words, untrue to the Word of God. Can't place His spiritual body and blood in the host and wine ? Good grief. Polytheism, really, denial of the power of God is heretical, and I guarantee you the Vatican would never acknowledge this as the worship of many gods. It is in fact the worship of many to the One True God.

Here for further clarification of the view of the true body and blood are the words of our earliest Christian fathers enjoining the reality of the real presence, the significance of that presence and the errors of not believing in that presence.

The short document known as the Teaching of the Apostles or Didache, which may be the earliest Christian document outside of the New Testament to speak of the Eucharist, says, "Let no one eat or drink of the Eucharist with you except those who have been baptized in the Name of the Lord,"[25] for it was in reference to this that the Lord said, "Do not give that which is holy to dogs." Matthew 7:6

A letter by Saint Ignatius of Antioch to the Romans, written in AD 106 says: "I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ."[26]
Writing to the Christians of Smyrna, in about AD 106, Saint Ignatius warned them to "stand aloof from such heretics", because, among other reasons, "they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again."[2

about 150, Justin Martyr wrote of the Eucharist: "Not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."[28

In about 200 AD, Tertullian wrote (Against Marcion IV. 40): "Taking bread and distributing it to his disciples he made it his own body by saying, 'This is my body,' that is a 'figure of my body.' On the other hand, there would not have been a figure unless there was a true body."


so much for the statement This type of idolatry is just one of many pagan practices that crept into the Roman Catholic Church over time



God Is Worshipped In Spirit

Jesus said, “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit [which is invisible] and truth” (John 4:24). After Jesus ascended into heaven, Paul said true worshipers are those “who worship in the Spirit of God” (Phil. 3:3). The eternal, immortal King is invisible to those on earth until He returns (1 Tim. 1:17). Christians are called to look on “the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal” (2 Cor. 4:18). The Eucharistic god of the Catholic Church is thus a temporal god and a false Christ. Jesus warned us not to believe anyone who says, “Here is the Christ” (Mat. 24:23). Jesus Christ, the Eternal God, is now physically present at the right hand of the Father (Luke 22:69). He will not return to the earth until after the tribulation (Mat. 24:29-30). Clearly, the worship of the Eucharist is idolatry.

Clearly, you are mistaken. these passage represent the coming of many Antichrists who in physical person will try to seduce the body of Christ. Christ Himself will come back physically to the end of times to correct these errors in belief of another or many other Antichrists. His presence in the Eucharist is demanded in atonement for the true sacrifice He has given us though His new covenant. This is what happens when you don't view the Eucharist as the literal body and blood of Christ. They are not a graven image, they are the true body and blood.

To worship any image in the place of God provokes Him to anger. God has this to say to idolaters: “they have made Me jealous with what is not God; they have provoked Me to anger with their idols” (Deut. 32:21). The Roman Catholic Church has “exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image “ and “exchanged the truth of God for a lie” (Rom. 1:23-25).

It's only a lie if you don't believe it's real... his audience is fooled by his words, but not our God. The only lie being told here is his personal thoughts involving the precious body and blood of Christ in denial of a known truth for 2 thousand years.


To teach that the incorruptible, almighty and holy God is contained in a corruptible wafer that can be handled, eaten, digested and expelled is indeed the most irreverent, desecrat­ing and profane form of idolatry. When Isaiah was confronted with God’s holiness he cried out, “Woe is me, I am undone. I am a man of unclean lips...” (Isaiah 6:5).

( Ankenberg should look in the mirror, for it is he of whom Isaiah is so speaking, a denier of the power of Christ)

When asked what happens to Jesus after the Eucharist is consumed, priests try to explain the unexplained by suggesting the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus departs from the Eucharist

Again, mistruths. The priests don't try to explain they do explain, not the unexplainable s He would have toy think but the truth of the process, Yes, directly in to the spiritual soul of the consumer, not "just disappears". as it is being digested. This is just horrible, to take the real body and presence of Jesus and reduce it to some cannibalistic memoir of faith for digestive purposes only. If Ankenberg is so smart, such a scholarly sort for so many years, how can he say such things without knowing he's intentionally perverting the Catholic faith. And again, he is sowing the seeds of discontent, disharmony and division among the body of Christ. I, as a Catholic would never entertain the thought of anyone else's disbelief in the rel presence. I would never condemn anyone for their beliefs as he has done and defamed herein.


Idolatry’s Punishment Is Death

Worshipping the Eucharist is a violation of the 2nd commandment: “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God...” (Exod. 20:1-5). Catholics who worship the Eucharist can be closely compared to the Israelites who worshiped the golden calf as their true God (Exod. 32:4). Their punishment imposed by God for this most serious sin was death (Exod. 32:27-28).

Again he cherry picks the bible. These references are about people's making of idols. Idols, by definition, are not of God. (see def.) In fact they are anti-God ... the Holy Eucharist is God ... he's again incorrect and leading many astray by parsing words like "can be closely compared". There is no comparison here no idol worship as the graven image he speaks of is real. We adore the reality of Him being there for our spiritual nourishment. I find this reality comforting, Him being so close and willing participation in our daily salvation. There is no idol worship, as that worship is pretending an object is God when it is not (see golden calf). The Eucharist is wholly God and a prefect of the covenant He has made with us.

God is too awesome and glorious to be captured in any image, let alone a wafer.

The prophet Isaiah declares God’s immeasurable greatness and then asks, “To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare with Him?” (Isaiah 40:18). Any image of God is therefore an insult to His glorious holiness and majestic perfection.

There is no image on the wafer, no idolic host to proclaim. Just the words of a man who wants to keep his congregation separate and apart from the other parts of the body of Christ by manipulating the scriptures to bend to his will, not the wholesome and complete will of God, who wants all the body of Christ unified and whole. The church is not just Ankerberg and his like, it is all who believe in the Resurrective power of God, and certainly not Ankerberg's limitive descriptions of God, His power and His love. There is no love in Ankerberg's derision.

Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.


Idolatry Is A Pagan Practice

From ancient times only pagan religions used images in the worship of their deities. This type of idolatry is just one of many pagan practices that crept into the Roman Catholic Church over time

( see all the early church father's thoughts that apparently crept in from 102 a.d. )or again( Luke 22:19 This practice was instituted by Christ Himself at the last supper. He didn't say "this is a representation of my body and blood... He said This is my body, This is my blood, eat and drink in remembrance of me) Catholics must know that the Lord God does not dwell in the inner substance of a wafer but in the very bodies of born-again Christians. (Here he is keeping his job, lapping up the born-again christian's right and the rest aren't cards)

The Apostle Paul asked: “What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, ‘I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people’” (2 Cor. 6:16). Paul warned us that those who practice idolatry will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:21).

Yet Pope John Paul II proclaims in unification: “We will show the Sacrament of Christ’s presence to all. In this bread the Almighty, the Eternal, the thrice Holy has made Himself close to us because it isn't idolatry, only to those who want it to be for the "us against them" defense of their faith. See the difference among church leaders, the Pope is entreating all to the unification of the body of Christ and Ankerberg is nothing more than derision, strife, name calling, inconsistent biblical theology and dis unification.
Ankerberg is so limited, so angry, so wrong.

Jude 1:16-19
These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage. But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.

The true heresy of Ankerberg's article is not just the misinformation of the tenants of the Catholic faith, but even more importantly the division he creates within the body of Christ,
willingly allowing such men spirited conjecture all the while leading his congregation in to believing his ways are better than God's ways.

This is why I felt compelled to say to Philip, beware.

Again ES (see my last post),

Ankerberg didn't write that article. Your whole premise for me creating this thread was that Ankerberg is a heretic. Now I have no problem leaving the article for discussion. But, I think we need to start another thread, with a more accurate thread title. I have no problem doing that, if it's what you want to do.

Or, we can leave the thread as it is, and you can post something that Ankerberg actually wrote, that you think shows he's a heretic.

How do you want to proceed?

abelcainsbrother wrote:I agree with John Ankerberg if Catholics believe Jesus becomes the wafer during communion.This would be another doctrine of man that is not of God.I wonder what Catholic in the past dreamed this up because you won't find it in the bible.I just refuse to go by doctrines of man that are not of God regardless of the denomination.When you take communion it should be in remembrance of Jesus's body being broken or crushed,bruised for us and the blood of Jesus shed for our sins and iniquities and not anything else.John 6:53,Isaiah 53:5,Luke 22:19-20.,etc.

The counter argument of this is:
If the items of the Eucharist do NOT become the true "body and blood" of Christ then people are NOT eating of "his flesh and blood" and as such are NOT having eternal life.

No Rick, I did not see your last post. I finished my post and got it on here asap . I was sent this article, that I assumed incorrectly was from Ankerberg since his website promoted it and his face was the first to be seen. I obviously was wrong to do so and renounce the claim his writings and thereby faith were heretical. I apologize to all who I misinformed.

I am mystified as to the why's of the persons writings are allowed to be displayed on Ankerberg's site if not for confirmation of agreement, but this cannot be confirmed and as far as I am concerned you can do as you wish in regards to my post. The basic tenets of the article are heretical and no more deserving of anyone's time should thy choose.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:No Rick, I did not see your last post. I finished my post and got it on here asap . I was sent this article, that I assumed incorrectly was from Ankerberg since his website promoted it and his face was the first to be seen. I obviously was wrong to do so and renounce the claim his writings and thereby faith were heretical. I apologize to all who I misinformed.

I am mystified as to the why's of the persons writings are allowed to be displayed on Ankerberg's site if not for confirmation of agreement, but this cannot be confirmed and as far as I am concerned you can do as you wish in regards to my post. The basic tenets of the article are heretical and no more deserving of anyone's time should thy choose.

ES,

I understand. I didn't realize that Ankerberg wasn't the author of the article, until I went back to reread the article.

So, as far as I'm concerned, this thread is going to be locked, because of the misunderstanding. If you do find something on Ankerberg's site that he wrote, and you want to discuss it here, you can pm me or another mod, and we can unlock the thread.

Or, If you still want to discuss the article, you can start another thread, and I can move your posts to the new thread if you'd like(so you don't have to rewrite them).

Any questions, you can pm me.

Thanks