Evidence for God from Science

What do people think are the biggest apologetic challenges to our faith today? This is my suggested list. (Not exhaustive) Maybe we can discuss each point later and any other point that people have added.

1) The Problem of Evil and suffering
2) Multiverse theories (counteracting the Kalam and the Design Argument)
3) Jesus Pagan/Myth Theories
4) Reliability of the Gospels (Authorship/Content/Dating)
5) Evolution (for non TE's)
6) Life on other planets

#2 isn't even plausible in materialist circles. It's an idea used to get around the Fine Tuned Universe argument for design with no actual scientific backing.
#5 Is a method, and does not dispute God in the slightest. It is a "how" answer in regards to Creation.
#6 The Bible is mute, because this is irrelevant to the purpose of the Bible. It does not mean that God does not have other projects. He might, but those would be inconsequential to our relationship with Him.

#

2 isn't even plausible in materialist circles. It's an idea used to get around the Fine Tuned Universe argument for design with no actual scientific backing.
#5 Is a method, and does not dispute God in the slightest. It is a "how" answer in regards to Creation.
#6 The Bible is mute, because this is irrelevant to the purpose of the Bible. It does not mean that God does not have other projects. He might, but those would be inconsequential to our relationship with Him

I agree with these... SoCal

my list would be top to bottom in importance like this...

#4 It is by my faith i believe them to be inspired and true by God. Actual proof of who and when is less demonstrable.
#3 Horace, Mithra etc .. are fairly easily debunked IMO, but still an interesting debate.
#1 Evil and suffering are byproducts of our fall, but some topics: embryo life termination, why is evil required, is suffering a curse or a blessing ...

This will be an interesting new topic to discuss .

Silvertusk wrote:What do people think are the biggest apologetic challenges to our faith today? This is my suggested list. (Not exhaustive) Maybe we can discuss each point later and any other point that people have added.

1) The Problem of Evil and suffering
2) Multiverse theories (counteracting the Kalam and the Design Argument)
3) Jesus Pagan/Myth Theories
4) Reliability of the Gospels (Authorship/Content/Dating)
5) Evolution (for non TE's)
6) Life on other planets

Silver,

I think the biggest challenge to apologetics, is without a doubt, the lack of subject knowledge of the one teaching apologetics.(And I put myself at or near the top of those lacking the knowledge.)

But after that, I'd say the only real challenge you listed is #1. We can't offer a real convincing answer to unbelievers, to the problem of pain and suffering. But we do have a solution.

In my mind, 2-6 aren't even problems to apologetics. They're either false, or non issues.

Silvertusk wrote:What do people think are the biggest apologetic challenges to our faith today? This is my suggested list. (Not exhaustive) Maybe we can discuss each point later and any other point that people have added.

1) The Problem of Evil and suffering
2) Multiverse theories (counteracting the Kalam and the Design Argument)
3) Jesus Pagan/Myth Theories
4) Reliability of the Gospels (Authorship/Content/Dating)
5) Evolution (for non TE's)
6) Life on other planets

I do not think any of these pose the greatest apologetic challenges to Christian faith today. The greatest is the falling away from truth as revealed in 2 Tim 4:3-42 and 2Tim 3:1-3.

There is no sense is right or wrong much these days and those under 50 in the USA have been basically taught under the full influence of moral relativism and progressive liberal thought which Saul Alsinky championed. This progressive liberal thought corrupted Europe earlier after WW I and was full swing sometime after WW II.

What was called evil is now called good, healthy and normal. As evidence, please read the list from 1 Co 6:9,10,11 and note how these behaviors are championed as good and noble as well as healthy and sane and how disagreeing with that assessment is evil and bad. This mindset affects some in the modern church by causing folks to drift away to the beat of the world system to avoid ridicule and persecution.

This goes in line with the popular doctrine of the left - there are no moral absolutes or absolutes. The use of situational equivalency and moral equivalency arguments pose a great challenge as it preys on human sin nature on all people pitting imperfections against imperfections and demanding one side live up to a perfection they themselves do not posses either.

An example of this happened on April 14, 2015, when Former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina, was asked by MSNBC reporter Mika Brzezinski asked Carly Forina, “Are you really the right person to be criticizing Hillary Clinton’s accomplishments or lack thereof?”

Carly Forina should have answer short with no long explanations and simply said, "Yes because you will not..."

These sorts of situational equivalency and moral equivalency statements are used to bash everyone into compliance with oppressive reform i.e. social justice's (tyranny) politically correct garbage which in turn justifies all things mentioned in the bible verses cited above. Minority Senate leader Harry Reid when asked why he lied about Mitt Romey's taxes on the floor of the US Senate, he responded, "The ends justify the means..."

The greatest danger that faces us is the death of truth, equity, and morality and a slide into darkness...

Some of the discussions with agnostics and atheist on this Forum concerning right and wrong point this out as well as being based the absolute fact that moral relativism is the only truth. This mindset has been passed off as an absolute proof that there are no absolutes to the point of absurdity.

Again,the greatest challenge to apologetics is the falling away from truth and a prideful ride into darkness
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The biggest challenge for CHRISTIANS is evil and suffering BUT they are emotional challenges.

Silvertusk wrote:What do people think are the biggest apologetic challenges to our faith today? This is my suggested list. (Not exhaustive) Maybe we can discuss each point later and any other point that people have added.

1) The Problem of Evil and suffering
2) Multiverse theories (counteracting the Kalam and the Design Argument)
3) Jesus Pagan/Myth Theories
4) Reliability of the Gospels (Authorship/Content/Dating)
5) Evolution (for non TE's)
6) Life on other planets

For me it is like this:

1) Do not have a problem with. In fact doing a sermon on it in a few months.
2) Causes me some concern - although as said - no real evidence for this and generally speculation at the moment.
3) A non starter with me
4) Again - pretty much a non starter with me.
5) Do not have a problem with this sort of happy either way - although if evolution is true, I still don't have a coherent picture of how it fits in with Genesis fully - especially the issue with Adam and eve.
6) I do struggle with this one - because although a lot of people say that it doesn't bother them - it bothers me.

Silvertusk wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:What do people think are the biggest apologetic challenges to our faith today? This is my suggested list. (Not exhaustive) Maybe we can discuss each point later and any other point that people have added.

1) The Problem of Evil and suffering
2) Multiverse theories (counteracting the Kalam and the Design Argument)
3) Jesus Pagan/Myth Theories
4) Reliability of the Gospels (Authorship/Content/Dating)
5) Evolution (for non TE's)
6) Life on other planets

For me it is like this:

1) Do not have a problem with. In fact doing a sermon on it in a few months.
2) Causes me some concern - although as said - no real evidence for this and generally speculation at the moment.
3) A non starter with me
4) Again - pretty much a non starter with me.
5) Do not have a problem with this sort of happy either way - although if evolution is true, I still don't have a coherent picture of how it fits in with Genesis fully - especially the issue with Adam and eve.
6) I do struggle with this one - because although a lot of people say that it doesn't bother them - it bothers me.

Silver,
After reading what you wrote about #5, I have a question. In your list, you wrote, "5) Evolution (for non TE's)". Are you asking if a non-theistic evolution may be an apologetic challenge? I guess I'm a little confused. Because if you take away the "theistic" part of evolution, what are you left with? Evolution without God. And I'd definitely have a problem justifying The Gospel of Christ, if God doesn't exist.
Thoughts?

Silvertusk wrote:What do people think are the biggest apologetic challenges to our faith today? This is my suggested list. (Not exhaustive) Maybe we can discuss each point later and any other point that people have added.

1) The Problem of Evil and suffering
2) Multiverse theories (counteracting the Kalam and the Design Argument)
3) Jesus Pagan/Myth Theories
4) Reliability of the Gospels (Authorship/Content/Dating)
5) Evolution (for non TE's)
6) Life on other planets

I think the mythicism issue is one of the fastest growing problems we face at this time. Not the claims of Jesus being compared to Horus or Mithras, but the argument that Jesus did not exist at all, divine or otherwise. Of course this also connects directly to the reliability of the gospels.

I think the biggest apologetics obstacle is the atheistic interpretation of the bible that interprets the bible to make God out to be evil and the attempt to show the bible was wrong,like 4 legged insects,etc. Because even when I'm able to give evidence to confirm things the bible said and even give evidence to back it up?They then try to point out where the bible was wrong by a bad interpretation,I mean they are wrong,but still,it kinda gets you off topic trying to correct what they think the bible was wrong about.

And they seem to have a never ending list where they say the bible was wrong about what it said,so that even if you correct one,they have another one,then another,on and on so that you spend your time off topic.I no longer deal with their bad interpretations and I tell them they are wrong but I'm not going to correct your bad interpretation because it won't do any good.I tell them that is your bad interpretation so you defend it.

RickD wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:What do people think are the biggest apologetic challenges to our faith today? This is my suggested list. (Not exhaustive) Maybe we can discuss each point later and any other point that people have added.

1) The Problem of Evil and suffering
2) Multiverse theories (counteracting the Kalam and the Design Argument)
3) Jesus Pagan/Myth Theories
4) Reliability of the Gospels (Authorship/Content/Dating)
5) Evolution (for non TE's)
6) Life on other planets

Silver,

I think the biggest challenge to apologetics, is without a doubt, the lack of subject knowledge of the one teaching apologetics.(And I put myself at or near the top of those lacking the knowledge.)

But after that, I'd say the only real challenge you listed is #1. We can't offer a real convincing answer to unbelievers, to the problem of pain and suffering. But we do have a solution.

In my mind, 2-6 aren't even problems to apologetics. They're either false, or non issues.

I know what you mean Rick,it is not for every Christian but I like the challenge of defending our faith and trying to reach atheists and agnostics and I think you get better at it the more you do it,it kinda stretches your knowledge of your faith also,because you try to find the answers and evidence to back it up.I've been testing the gap theory out against evolution to see how it does against it.

SilverTusk's #6 (life on other planets) may or may not be true. But IF it is intelligent life, I would say we probably will never come into contact with it. OR, before we do come into contact with it, God will somehow prepare us. Maybe this is something that we'll not know until the end of the age. It is possible that God has created a universe so vast that He has multiple Creation stories and civilizations that will never intermingle or communicate, due to the vast distances involved. OR earth life is the only intelligent life. But as God is eternal, has always existed, is unchanging in His nature - WHY would we think that He's only created in our universe and earth's time - was He not creative in ALL eternity past? If so, I think that suggests that He's created many other realities and creatures for His purposes for THEIR time, and THEIR places. I think we sometimes think about God in very narcissistic ways - as if HE is all about US - that WE are His ONLY focus. Of course, it's also possible that we (earthlings) are ALL of the physical, intelligent beings God has created. Perhaps most of what He has created is in other dimensions or the spiritual realm. It's all fascinating to think and speculate about, but we can't know more than He has shared with us in His Word. Perhaps all He has shared is about OUR story and OUR time. But as God is unlimited in what He can do and create, anything and everything is possible, within His Holy Character and attributes.

And, NO, the existence or non-existence of any other planets of intelligent life changes nothing from an apologetics standpoint - as, much like the multiverse and non-theistic explanations for all that exists, it all had to start somewhere, with the fist created linkage.

RickD wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:What do people think are the biggest apologetic challenges to our faith today? This is my suggested list. (Not exhaustive) Maybe we can discuss each point later and any other point that people have added.

1) The Problem of Evil and suffering
2) Multiverse theories (counteracting the Kalam and the Design Argument)
3) Jesus Pagan/Myth Theories
4) Reliability of the Gospels (Authorship/Content/Dating)
5) Evolution (for non TE's)
6) Life on other planets

For me it is like this:

1) Do not have a problem with. In fact doing a sermon on it in a few months.
2) Causes me some concern - although as said - no real evidence for this and generally speculation at the moment.
3) A non starter with me
4) Again - pretty much a non starter with me.
5) Do not have a problem with this sort of happy either way - although if evolution is true, I still don't have a coherent picture of how it fits in with Genesis fully - especially the issue with Adam and eve.
6) I do struggle with this one - because although a lot of people say that it doesn't bother them - it bothers me.

Silver,
After reading what you wrote about #5, I have a question. In your list, you wrote, "5) Evolution (for non TE's)". Are you asking if a non-theistic evolution may be an apologetic challenge? I guess I'm a little confused. Because if you take away the "theistic" part of evolution, what are you left with? Evolution without God. And I'd definitely have a problem justifying The Gospel of Christ, if God doesn't exist.
Thoughts?

I basically just mean that If Evolution is true then I do not think that denies God - in fact I think Evolution needs God in order to happen. I think it can perfectly be interpreted with the Genesis creation story - it is when it gets to Adam and Eve then things get a little hazy..

Silvertusk wrote:

RickD wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:What do people think are the biggest apologetic challenges to our faith today? This is my suggested list. (Not exhaustive) Maybe we can discuss each point later and any other point that people have added.

1) The Problem of Evil and suffering
2) Multiverse theories (counteracting the Kalam and the Design Argument)
3) Jesus Pagan/Myth Theories
4) Reliability of the Gospels (Authorship/Content/Dating)
5) Evolution (for non TE's)
6) Life on other planets

For me it is like this:

1) Do not have a problem with. In fact doing a sermon on it in a few months.
2) Causes me some concern - although as said - no real evidence for this and generally speculation at the moment.
3) A non starter with me
4) Again - pretty much a non starter with me.
5) Do not have a problem with this sort of happy either way - although if evolution is true, I still don't have a coherent picture of how it fits in with Genesis fully - especially the issue with Adam and eve.
6) I do struggle with this one - because although a lot of people say that it doesn't bother them - it bothers me.

Silver,
After reading what you wrote about #5, I have a question. In your list, you wrote, "5) Evolution (for non TE's)". Are you asking if a non-theistic evolution may be an apologetic challenge? I guess I'm a little confused. Because if you take away the "theistic" part of evolution, what are you left with? Evolution without God. And I'd definitely have a problem justifying The Gospel of Christ, if God doesn't exist.
Thoughts?

I basically just mean that If Evolution is true then I do not think that denies God - in fact I think Evolution needs God in order to happen. I think it can perfectly be interpreted with the Genesis creation story - it is when it gets to Adam and Eve then things get a little hazy..

Ok, I understand. And I agree. Assuming evolution is true, whatever definition of evolution one wants to use, it doesn't rule out God.

Allow me to inject my own view on what is the #1 challenge:

Uninformed, emotionally grounded Christians who are unable or unwilling to make or teach a logical argument for their faith. A lot of young Christians are giving up on their faith in the face of non-belief because they are simply not taught the rational foundations for their belief.