Evidence for God from Science

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https://discussions.godandscience.org/

Some Mormon Resources.

https://discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?t=40169

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Some Mormon Resources.

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 10:40 am
by SoCalExile
Ran into these while discussing Mormonism on another board with Mormons. As soon as I put these up, the thread went silent.

There has been some mention that, in the last few years, the LDS Church has been hemorrhaging members over the research being posted on the 'net about the origins of the Book of Mormon, Church History, and the response of the LDS Church, which has been desperately trying to shove it under the rug, telling it's members who approach them with this stuff, to shut-up and be faithful, and generally showing a lack of leadership and direction.

Here's a .pdf letter to a CES Director, which is a pretty damning look at the history and origins of the LDS and the Book of Mormon (.pdf format): http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf
Here is the site to the creator of the CES Letter, scroll down for the video interview: http://cesletter.com/
A collection of LDS essays and their critical review: http://cesletter.com/essays/

Another ex-Mormon, who conducted the interview with the author of the CES Letter, runs this website: http://mormonstories.org/
Another site: http://askreality.com/
Ex-Mormon subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/ <-- some sad stuff there. Please be respectful, many have undergone a crisis of faith in God and are pretty jaded. Use as a resource.

A site hosting infographics, many of whom are in the CES Letter: http://www.mormoninfographics.com/
Some:
http://i.imgur.com/A7IDRM7.jpg
Image
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WjLtGm8cVMs/U ... t+v2.0.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uBx72hYfHy4/U ... Plates.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jBH02l7Cwok/U ... ion+v3.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UJkGmg3_yFo/V ... le%2B3.png

Re: Some Mormon Resources.

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 11:40 am
by SoCalExile
An interesting look at the role of the LDS Church in Utah politics: http://www.anamericandreamrevealed.com/ ... itics.html

A post from the same blog on he re-branding of the LDS church: http://www.anamericandreamrevealed.com/ ... igion.html

Re: Some Mormon Resources.

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 12:42 pm
by SoCalExile

Re: Some Mormon Resources.

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:36 pm
by IceMobster
I didn't think it is required to open a new topic, but, a few months ago I talked to some Mormons on their site under the live chat option.
"H" and "S" are the Mormons and I am "P"
I know it is not really easy to read, but I am too lazy to edit it all. :mrgreen:
Note how some of the things mentioned here (at least from my side) are incorrect, mainly concerning personal things/believes/etc.
I did another session where I claimed to be a Muslim, etc. etc.
The ending is pretty weird, though.

So, here is the chat:
Spoiler!
(well, spoilers don't work or I do not know how to insert them...)

Thank you for your interest in chatting with a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
What would you like to talk about?

P

Hello.
12:39 AM

Now chatting with Hilary
H

Hello! Welcome to mormon.org
12:48 AM

Now chatting with Hilary & Stacy
S

Hi Peter! How are you today?
12:48 AM

H

Are you still there?
12:52 AM

P

Yeah I am here
12:57 AM

I've got a question.


Why did it take Joseph Smith and I guess all of his followers ~1500 years to figure out that the Church is wrong and that there should be a new one made?


H

I think it was definitely in the Lords timing and in His will. It is interesting to note when and where the restoration of the church occurred-in the US in a time when religious freedom was available to all. It would not have been possible in other places or times for someone to claim what Joseph Smith claimed and to restore the gospel and bring followers along with him
12:59 AM

does that make sense?


P

No it does not. He could have done it along with protestants?
1:00 AM

H

What do you mean? Like during the protestant reformation?
1:01 AM

P

yes
1:01 AM

H

Im honestly not sure why. But I know that God has his reasons for everything
1:01 AM

P

Wel
1:02 AM

that makes no sense lo


how can you know that is God's will?


H

Well I have prayed to know if JOseph Smith truly was a prophet of God and have received an answer through the HOly Ghost.
1:02 AM

P

How can you know that God's will is not in Islam or in Catholic Church or in some Protestant one?
1:02 AM

Elaborate.


H

What is your religious background?
1:02 AM

P

Why does it matter?
1:03 AM

H

Helps me to know how to teach you better! Were not here to argue, by the way. We are here to talk to people that have sincere desire to learn the basic doctrines of our church and to come closer to Jesus Christ. Do you believe that God answers prayers?
1:03 AM

P

I believe that could be possible.
1:04 AM

But how can you know that Joseph is a prophet of God?


Why would God choose him? Why divide Christianity further by making new Churches?


H

Because I have prayed to God and asked Him if he was a prophet o GOd
1:05 AM

Thats not the purpose of the restoration of the gospel. God restored the gospel in order to provide all of the His children the opportunity to accept the fullness of the gospel of JEsus Christ. That doesnt mean He takes away our agency and forces everyone to do that, but the opportunity is provide.d


P

What are you even on about?
1:07 AM

H

Im not sure what that means
1:07 AM

P

Why did he restore the Gospel?
1:07 AM

Why in 1830?


Why did God wait so long to bring another prophet ?


How do you know he is the real one?
1:09 AM

S

These are really great questions! Like Hilary mentioned earlier, we don't know all of the reasons behind the timing that the Lord chooses, however, we do believe that He acts in the best interest of His children. It could be that His children were the most prepared to receive the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ in its fulness in 1830 and not beforehand.
1:09 AM

P

I am not satisfied with just "praying"... Or at least elaborate how did you ask God if Joseph is prophet and how did you know the answer is affirmative.
1:10 AM

S

Oh interesting. How come prayer isn't enough in your eyes?
1:10 AM

P

Well, I could write a book and say that Lord provided me with Holy Ghost and that every other Christian denomination is wrong and my is correct...
1:11 AM

Because it can be abused. You could kill 10 people and say I prayed to God and he said I should kill them.


Using rational thoughts one could think that the person who says that is schizoprenic


S

Well, there is a test to know if the answers we receive are coming from God. Would you like to know what that is?
1:12 AM

P

Sure.
1:12 AM

S

Great! Are you familiar with the Book of Mormon?
1:13 AM

P

Not really...
1:13 AM

S

Okay, lets read some of it together in order to understand this concept you're asking about a little better. Would you like us to give you a brief history of the Book of Mormon so you're not confused?
1:14 AM

P

I am more interested in how Hilary knows that God claims Joseph is a prophet...
1:14 AM

H

I have read the Book of Mormon, and prayed to God to know if it is the word of God. The Holy Ghost has touched my heart, and also my mind in confirming the truth of it. There is a promise in the Book of Mormon that fi we read with real intent and a sincere desire to know if it is true, the Holy Ghost will manifest the truthfullness to you. IF that is true, then Joseph Smith truly wasa prophet of GOd.
1:15 AM

P

You know what a rational mind would say to this?
1:16 AM

You are delusional and crazy...


H

I ahve heard that many times before
1:16 AM

P

Yeah ok but still, you cant know that he is a prophet
1:17 AM

H

The world continues to tell us that, and I dont think they will stop any time soon. I CHOOSE to have faith in God
1:17 AM

P

So does whole of Christianity
1:17 AM

From catholic to orthodox to protestants


Why are they wrong and you are not?


H

Yes, so you calling me delusional is not going to affect that choice. Is your purpose in coming to mormon.org to prove us wrong?
1:17 AM

P

That is wrong. I did not call you delusional. I am stating that some do and would call you delusional.
1:18 AM

H

Ok, sorry I must have read that wrong
1:18 AM

P

And no, my purpose is not to prove you wrong. I'd like to see why do you think this is the correct way.
1:18 AM

H

I believe it is the correct way because I ahve read in the Bible and the Book of Mormon and the words of modern day prophets who have testified of God and of Jesus Christ and have taught us that this is the way to receive spiritual truth
1:18 AM

P

May I know how old are you?
1:19 AM

H

23
1:19 AM

P

Okay, let us do what Stacy proposed. That is, read some of it together to understand the concept better
1:20 AM

H

ok great!
1:20 AM

Do you have a copy? If not you can read it online


P

No I do not but wait, I've got a question.
1:21 AM

S

Okay, we're waiting... :)
1:21 AM

P

Why do mormons claim that the Holy Trinity is three separate beings?
1:22 AM

S

It goes back to knowing that Joseph Smith was a prophet. We believe that he really did see God the Father and Jesus Christ and that They did speak to him. They were two separate and distinct beings.
1:22 AM

We believe They always have been and always will be.


P

What is mormon's view on homosexuality?
1:23 AM

H

Homosexual feelings are not a sin, but it is a sin to act on those feelings
1:24 AM

S

How old are you Peter?
1:24 AM

P

20
1:24 AM

S

Nice! How did you hear about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Is it something that you've just recently looked in to or have you been studying our beliefs for a while?
1:25 AM

P

I'm interested to see religious views in the world, like in general and since I've seen that your sight even has a live chat I was really eager to learn more.
1:26 AM

S

It is really fascinating, right?!
1:27 AM

Out of all your research, how do you think you'll be able to find truth?


P

I am not sure... Through Christianity, I guess. Not sure which denomination, though. I am really interested in Evangelical point of view since it makes the most sense to me.
1:28 AM

S

Oh that's awesome! I have some Evangelical friends and they are sooo nice! :) We believe that the ultimate source of truth is God and God alone. Have you experienced receiving answers to your prayers Peter?
1:29 AM

P

Nope.
1:29 AM

H

Have you ever prayed before?
1:29 AM

P

I did.
1:29 AM

H

Once?
1:29 AM

P

Nah, multiple times. Well, depends what you define as a prayer?
1:30 AM

S

How do you define prayer?
1:30 AM

P

I don't see much sense in endless repetition of words which many claim as a prayer.
1:30 AM

S

Neither do I
1:31 AM

P

Therefore I pray differently. Something like talking, having an intimate relationship with a deity.
1:31 AM

H

We believe and practice the same thing
1:31 AM

S

We believe that because God is our Father, we can communicate with Him just as we communicate with our earthly fathers. We can counsel with Him. We believe that's what He wants for us. He wants to guide and direct our lives just like many fathers do, but we have to seek that guidance in prayer.
1:32 AM

I like this verse about prayer - Counsel with the Lord in all thy doings, and he will direct thee for good;
yea, when thou liest down at night lie down unto the Lord, that he may
watch over you in your sleep; and when thou risest in the morning let thy heart be full of thanks unto God; and if ye do these things, ye shall be lifted up at the last day.


"Yea, and cry unto God for all thy support; yea, let all thy doings be unto the Lord, and whithersoever thou goest let it be in the Lord; yea, let all thy thoughts be directed unto the Lord; yea, let the affections of thy heart be placed upon the Lord forever."


P

Yeah but how do you know if the answer to your prayer is really God? How do you know it is not a product of your imagination? How do you know it is not some other deity? Why trust that feeling when it is so mysterious and unknown to us?
1:34 AM

Not to say, God never answered any of my prayer. What does it feel like to have it answered? Is it like a voice or what?


S

We believe the answers come differently for everyone because we are all differently, but the scriptures do teach us how we can identify answers to our prayers. Do you study the scriptures?
1:36 AM

different*


P

Not intensivly...
1:36 AM

Who are these earthly fathers you talk about?


S

I was referring to our biological fathers. We believe that We communicate with God in prayer and often He communicates back to us through the words of His prophets as recorded in the scriptures. That is why it is so important to study the scriptures.
1:38 AM

P

Agreed.
1:39 AM

S

That's great! What do these words from James in the Bible mean to you? "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
1:39 AM

P

Just a second.
1:41 AM

What verse is that? I'd like to see it on my language :)


H

James 1:5
1:41 AM

What is your first language?


P

Swedish. I am from Sweden.
1:42 AM

I have nothing to add to the verse. I agree with it.


S

Wow! that's awesome! You speak English really well!
1:42 AM

What does it mean though?


P

That if you ask for wisdom you should have a connection to God to obtain it more easily and to maintain it. Basically, if you ask from God, it will be given.
1:43 AM

Yeah, I've been learning English since kindergarten.


S

Well, you speak better than I do! Haha!
1:44 AM

P

:)
1:44 AM

S

Yes, that's definitely what it means. Lets read what Paul teaches about receiving answers through the Holy Spirit.
1:45 AM

Do you still have your Bible nearby?


P

Yes.
1:45 AM

S

Perfect! Paul teaches in Galatians 5:22-23 about the feelings associated with the Holy Spirit. We believe these same feelings can accompany answer to our prayers.
1:47 AM

H

Do you feel like you have ever felt those things before?
1:47 AM

P

Hmmm
1:48 AM

S

Enlighten us :)
1:48 AM

P

Of course I did, but so did certain people who claim for themselves to be atheists.
1:49 AM

So, I did feel them and I can understand the correlation with the Holy Ghost and in the end God


S

While they are praying?
1:49 AM

P

The verse states nothing about receiving those feelings while praying.
1:50 AM

S

Oh, I see what you are saying. We believe that as we feel these same feeling in prayer, we can know that the truths about which we are praying are true and of God.
1:51 AM

P

So, if you are praying and asking God if Joseph is the true prophet if you experience happiness or joy you can truthfully say that the answer is affirmative?
1:52 AM

and if you experience...*


S

Good question! We believe that answers come to our mind and our heart as the verse that Hilary is going to share with you states. We also believe that as we study the Book of Mormon, we can come to know of the truthfulness of his calling as a prophet as well. An honest evaluation of the fruits of his labors as prophets is also telling.
1:55 AM

H

2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.
1:55 AM

We have to get going, but we can transfer you to some other representatives if you would like. :)


P

Yeah, that would be good.
1:55 AM

S

Okay great! It has been wonderful chatting with you today. We will transfer you to our friends Chris and Matt. We wish you the best! We truly know that God will answer your prayers as you are sincerely looking for truth! We're so excited for you. :)
1:56 AM

P

Good. Thanks. See you around :)
1:56 AM

Now chatting with Taylor
P

Hello. Can you see the chat before this one?
1:57 AM

T

Hello, how are you today?
1:57 AM

And yes, we can see the chat.


Now chatting with Taylor & Christian
P

Ok, that is good. Anyway, was Joseph polygamist? Does the Bible not state that marriage is a unity between man and a wife not many wives?
1:58 AM

I mean, I've read that he was a polygamist, so, I am wondering.


Oh, btw, feel free to read the chat above if you wish. To get a more detailed situation. I can wait.


T

Hey Peter, so we have a time limit with each chat. We do this so we can meet the demand and give everyone a chance to chat with us. So we are very sorry, but we are going to need to get going. But we can answer your last question before we get going.
2:00 AM

Thanks for talking with us. God bless Peter :)


The chat session has ended.

Re: Some Mormon Resources.

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:15 am
by Kurieuo
So, did you pray in your heart Ice? :P

Re: Some Mormon Resources.

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:59 am
by IceMobster
Kurieuo wrote:So, did you pray in your heart Ice? :P
Yeah, I got a vision seeing God and Jesus both telling me I should start a new branch of Church since the current one(s) are being misled. I am questioning my career as a prophet. :comeon:

Re: Some Mormon Resources.

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:58 pm
by SoCalExile
BTW, since the OP, I've discovered the best site so far on training Christians to witness to Mormons: http://tilm.org/

Check out the dictionary under "Basic Witnessing Tools". The LDS church redefines many common Christian terms in order to sound like Christians.

Re: Some Mormon Resources.

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:36 pm
by Blessed
SoCalExile wrote:Ran into these while discussing Mormonism on another board with Mormons. As soon as I put these up, the thread went silent.

There has been some mention that, in the last few years, the LDS Church has been hemorrhaging members over the research being posted on the 'net about the origins of the Book of Mormon, Church History, and the response of the LDS Church, which has been desperately trying to shove it under the rug, telling it's members who approach them with this stuff, to shut-up and be faithful, and generally showing a lack of leadership and direction.

Here's a .pdf letter to a CES Director, which is a pretty damning look at the history and origins of the LDS and the Book of Mormon (.pdf format): http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf
Here is the site to the creator of the CES Letter, scroll down for the video interview: http://cesletter.com/
A collection of LDS essays and their critical review: http://cesletter.com/essays/

Another ex-Mormon, who conducted the interview with the author of the CES Letter, runs this website: http://mormonstories.org/
Another site: http://askreality.com/
Ex-Mormon subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/ <-- some sad stuff there. Please be respectful, many have undergone a crisis of faith in God and are pretty jaded. Use as a resource.

A site hosting infographics, many of whom are in the CES Letter: http://www.mormoninfographics.com/
Some:
http://i.imgur.com/A7IDRM7.jpg
Image
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WjLtGm8cVMs/U ... t+v2.0.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uBx72hYfHy4/U ... Plates.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jBH02l7Cwok/U ... ion+v3.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UJkGmg3_yFo/V ... le%2B3.png

I have something to say. You may not like hearing it. Lots of ex-mormons do this. Including the famous ex Mormon and disgusting confused unbalanced self absorbed anti-God Narcissist, Monica Bielanko who now, after having kids, moves back into the LDS community to absord the benifts of that community, while spreading her poison to help destroy it. Same for another women, Satanist Porn Star Bella Donna.

I would ask for your motives in pushing this "research" to the LDS community. What are your obejectives here? To ruin the LDS community?

I feel this is wrong. And I am totally biased. Because Mormons were the ONLY people I've ever met in my life outside of my immediate family whom I instantly completely and totally trusted. No questions asked. It was strong, overpowering feeling. I would easily give up my sins, and yes, even hot coffee, to feel this way around a large group of people again. Mormonism is the glue that holds the LDS community together. These people are good people who, unlike many so called Christians, including myself, practice what they preach. Thier faith and deeds match !

Think about the cost for introducing dissention into the LDS community like you are doing. I watched an NDE experience on youtube recently, Howard Storm. Very compelling. Howard asked a being in the afterlife what the correct religion is and the entity told him the one which brings you closest to God. If LDS brings the community together with closeness to God why are you trying to ruin it for them? And what are your alternatives? Converting to mainstream Christianity to quiver in fear to the LGBT mind control agenda? I am sorry but the sense of togethernesss and wholeness I felt there has not been duplicated in any other church for me.

Mormons were the best people I ever met, in my life, hands down. These are people I felt I could trust, above all people on this earth. I truely would have loved to be part of thier community. I instantly felt accepted, supported, guided and wanted. It did not hurt that the young women were kind, talkative to me, beautiful, chaste, and loyal to thier religion, all seeking the one husband God put on this earth just for them. I went to the ward many times and participated in many meetings.

LDS does believe and worship Jesus Christ as Lord and Savoir weather you like it or not they are under the umbrella of Christianity. The Old Testement, New Testement, Book of Mormon were all included in their wards weekly teachings.

Joining Mormonism would have given me what I always wanted my entire life. A beautiful, young, loving. kind, loyal wife. With great lots of great friends and a community I could fully trust and feel at peace with. Well worth tithing for. I truely loved these people and viewed them as totally different and unique, from many Christians I have run into.


There is already a concerted leftist funded effort underway to attack the Mormon Church today and break them up, Why?
Because they are "too white" for America. Of course this effort does not target black churches, hispanic churches etc. Only the Mormons only - because they are white. That is a fact. And I find this evil, disgusting and hypocritical. Such as the world we live in today.

In any case I ultimately decided not to join because converting to Mormanism would've given me what I always wanted even though I did not beleive in it since I was raised Protestant and Methodist. However I agree with many aspects of Mormonism. But ultimately, when I was a child, I hid some "treasure" in the ground then played a pirate game with my childhood friends to see who could find it. Then I acted as if it was a discovery. When it was set up by me. I could not get this childhood experience out of my head when learning about Joseph Smith.

I could also not come to an agreement regarding the Alaskan land bridge during the ice age(which is a proven scientific fact) and lack of archological evidence in North America, specifically upstate New York for the Nephite wars. I also was turned of because of thier "prophets" and the constant changing of thier positions over time. i.e. we received this revelation, oh no wait not it's a different one, oh no wait now it's this. Now it's that. Now it's the other. Even when said "prophacy" goes against the book of Moromism. I could not respect this and had to ask myself WHY would I convert. Ultimately, although it would have given me everything I've always wanted in this life, I had to turn it down. :(

I still reflect, and regret my decision. I would have had a happy wonderful life, closer to God and the community. I know this because I the spirit told me. I felt it tell me this is where you belong.

Your research attacks on the LDS community, even if correct, are very distastful and divisive. If you have somthing against the LDS community there is no reason for doing this because honestly. LDS new polices on missionary work and converting Laminates for mixed race marriage will be thier own undoing according to thier own scripture. As LDS community becomes more race mixed less people will join. I have personal hands on experience with this. There are hordes of laminates (non white males mostly really dark South Americans) who desperately want young white women because young white women are viewed as the sexually superior gold standard in many South American (and Middle Eastern which does not apply here) cultures. It's just a fact.

BOTTOM LINE: Many of these South American men "convert" to LDS in order to gain direct access to young white women mix thier seed and get what they what: a young white women. In other words: A FALSE CONVERSION. You can see this on various South American chat rooms. It goes something like this: "should I convert to LDS...Mormon missionary came to my door.. I want a white women... can I get a white women if I convert? Will they accept me in the community since they are mostly white?" THAT is a factor in why these South American men are converting in droves.

Mormonism has voilated their own Mormon doctrine concerning the seperation Laminites and Nephites held by all bishops and prophets since it's founding changing with the advent of 21st century political correctness. A mostly or all white church was a magnet for growth. You can call it racist. But I'm sorry it's just a fact. Human behavior. People go where they feel most "comfortable". Again. I have hands on experience with this which I'm not going to explain to you as I've already said too much.

Mormonism in terms of growth are hemmorging members, yes WHITE MEMBERS, in hordes. And as a result of this that and the other .. Mormonism will shrink in the future. I belive the demographic shift has just as much do to with the information on the internet sowing doubt like you are... as well as the general decline of the church, and morals, in US society today.

I am probably going to get banned for saying all this but it's just the truth as I see it in regards to Mormonism and it's current state of the union .. based on my own experience. They still have a really great community and you should probably reconsider what your motives are for wanting to desecrate it.

You may be correct. And you probably are. But in the process you're helping to sow deeds of doubt and abandonment into a great and irreplacable community.
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