Studies that say NDEs are not real.

[Audie]

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... ce-of-nde/

Failing to obtain any actual evidence that NDEs represent non-corporeal cognition, Parnia apparently decided to fall back on the old, let’s just report what people say and present that as if it were actual objective evidence. Let’s take a look again at the results:

Among 2060 CA events, 140 survivors completed stage 1 interviews, while 101 of 140 patients completed stage 2 interviews. 46% had memories with 7 major cognitive themes: fear; animals/plants; bright light; violence/persecution; deja-vu; family; recalling events post-CA and 9% had NDEs, while 2% described awareness with explicit recall of ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ actual events related to their resuscitation. One had a verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected.

The one case that is being touted as evidence is a patient who apparently described details of the cardiac resuscitation. Parnia is referring to this as “verifiable conscious awareness.” Not so fast.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... of-heaven/

http://io9.com/a-new-scientific-explana ... 1110395345


There are far more sites that say it is real, of course. Its like how if you search "evolution" you will find dozens of sites claiming to disprove it.

In both cases, it says all one needs to know about which pov is driven by ideology.

[B. W.]

Audie,

You forgot the true facts, certain drugs cause amnesia and thus prove the true cause for lower rate of memory the study cited above shows. So Yes, there is bias even in you.

Drug induced amnesia Links: Midazolam and propofol affect memory and Drug induced amnesia

Midazolam and propofol are used for heart attacks and major surgeries. Other drugs are given by EMT's to patients's on the way to the hospital that cause amnesia so that patients do not recall the accident, or recall unpleasant recovery treatment such as hyperthermic recovery treatment for heart attack and drowning victims that can take up to three days. Other major surgeries uses these amneisa drugs so patients have no memory of a tube crammed down the throat or ventilator tube in neck, etc and etc. The drugs cause these memory lapses.

I will guarantee that the stats cited do not truly account for the effects of these drugs. Nor will they - due to bias.

And yes, the brain does shut down and rots away as does all flesh. Audie, you can delude yourself thinking that there is no afterlife all you want but one day you will die and find out anti-nde studies are in error.

Since your faith is totally built upon the hope of nothingness - therefore - all you say or do is nothing. Think of the worst child sadist murdering molester actually gets away with the deed. in fact, since there is only nothingness in the universe that is constant, then the worst child sadist murdering molester cannot be guilty of anything wrong can she/he? In fact, you going to college is a complete waste of time. All you do - a complete meaningless waste.

How does it feel to defend nothingness Audie?
-
-
-

[Audie]

Audie,

You forgot the true facts, certain drugs cause amnesia and thus prove the true cause for lower rate of memory the study cited above shows. So Yes, there is bias even in you.

Drug induced amnesia Links: Midazolam and propofol affect memory and Drug induced amnesia

Midazolam and propofol are used for heart attacks and major surgeries. Other drugs are given by EMT's to patients's on the way to the hospital that cause amnesia so that patients do not recall the accident, or recall unpleasant recovery treatment such as hyperthermic recovery treatment for heart attack and drowning victims that can take up to three days. Other major surgeries uses these amneisa drugs so patients have no memory of a tube crammed down the throat or ventilator tube in neck, etc and etc. The drugs cause these memory lapses.

I will guarantee that the stats cited do not truly account for the effects of these drugs. Nor will they - due to bias.

And yes, the brain does shut down and rots away as does all flesh. Audie, you can delude yourself thinking that there is no afterlife all you want but one day you will die and find out anti-nde studies are in error.

Since your faith is totally built upon the hope of nothingness - therefore - all you say or do is nothing. Think of the worst child sadist murdering molester actually gets away with the deed. in fact, since there is only nothingness in the universe that is constant, then the worst child sadist murdering molester cannot be guilty of anything wrong can she/he? In fact, you going to college is a complete waste of time. All you do - a complete meaningless waste.

How does it feel to defend nothingness Audie?
-
-
-

Well, yes, I am biased. Biased in favour of a conservative evidenced based approach, against vast unsupportable conclusions. The NDE -is-real may be true and it may be false but it sure has not been proved to be real.

And your bias...?

Your last paragraph, btw, is an irrelevant bucket of made up crap attacking me personally.
Any chance you could just stick to discussion of ideas instead of your fantasies about my personality?

[RickD]

Audie,

You forgot the true facts, certain drugs cause amnesia and thus prove the true cause for lower rate of memory the study cited above shows. So Yes, there is bias even in you.

Drug induced amnesia Links: Midazolam and propofol affect memory and Drug induced amnesia

Midazolam and propofol are used for heart attacks and major surgeries. Other drugs are given by EMT's to patients's on the way to the hospital that cause amnesia so that patients do not recall the accident, or recall unpleasant recovery treatment such as hyperthermic recovery treatment for heart attack and drowning victims that can take up to three days. Other major surgeries uses these amneisa drugs so patients have no memory of a tube crammed down the throat or ventilator tube in neck, etc and etc. The drugs cause these memory lapses.

I will guarantee that the stats cited do not truly account for the effects of these drugs. Nor will they - due to bias.

And yes, the brain does shut down and rots away as does all flesh. Audie, you can delude yourself thinking that there is no afterlife all you want but one day you will die and find out anti-nde studies are in error.

Since your faith is totally built upon the hope of nothingness - therefore - all you say or do is nothing. Think of the worst child sadist murdering molester actually gets away with the deed. in fact, since there is only nothingness in the universe that is constant, then the worst child sadist murdering molester cannot be guilty of anything wrong can she/he? In fact, you going to college is a complete waste of time. All you do - a complete meaningless waste.

How does it feel to defend nothingness Audie?
-
-
-

Well, yes, I am biased. Biased in favour of a conservative evidenced based approach, against vast unsupportable conclusions. The NDE -is-real may be true and it may be false but it sure has not been proved to be real.

And your bias...?

Your last paragraph, btw, is an irrelevant bucket of made up crap attacking me personally.
Any chance you could just stick to discussion of ideas instead of your fantasies about my personality?

Audie,
It's not a personal attack against you. It's the reality of a worldview without an afterlife. I know it may seem like a personal attack because it's your worldview. If there is no afterlife, how can there be any meaning(ultimately) to our very short existence?

[Audie]

Audie,

You forgot the true facts, certain drugs cause amnesia and thus prove the true cause for lower rate of memory the study cited above shows. So Yes, there is bias even in you.

Drug induced amnesia Links: Midazolam and propofol affect memory and Drug induced amnesia

Midazolam and propofol are used for heart attacks and major surgeries. Other drugs are given by EMT's to patients's on the way to the hospital that cause amnesia so that patients do not recall the accident, or recall unpleasant recovery treatment such as hyperthermic recovery treatment for heart attack and drowning victims that can take up to three days. Other major surgeries uses these amneisa drugs so patients have no memory of a tube crammed down the throat or ventilator tube in neck, etc and etc. The drugs cause these memory lapses.

I will guarantee that the stats cited do not truly account for the effects of these drugs. Nor will they - due to bias.

And yes, the brain does shut down and rots away as does all flesh. Audie, you can delude yourself thinking that there is no afterlife all you want but one day you will die and find out anti-nde studies are in error.

Since your faith is totally built upon the hope of nothingness - therefore - all you say or do is nothing. Think of the worst child sadist murdering molester actually gets away with the deed. in fact, since there is only nothingness in the universe that is constant, then the worst child sadist murdering molester cannot be guilty of anything wrong can she/he? In fact, you going to college is a complete waste of time. All you do - a complete meaningless waste.

How does it feel to defend nothingness Audie?
-
-
-

Well, yes, I am biased. Biased in favour of a conservative evidenced based approach, against vast unsupportable conclusions. The NDE -is-real may be true and it may be false but it sure has not been proved to be real.

And your bias...?

Your last paragraph, btw, is an irrelevant bucket of made up crap attacking me personally.
Any chance you could just stick to discussion of ideas instead of your fantasies about my personality?

Audie,
It's not a personal attack against you. It's the reality of a worldview without an afterlife. I know it may seem like a personal attack because it's your worldview. If there is no afterlife, how can there be any meaning(ultimately) to our very short existence?

It may be his or your idea of what I think, but its not for either of you to decide and then state as fact.

Regardless, whether attack or not, its personal.

What about "discuss ideas, not personalities".

[PaulSacramento]

The conclusion of the studied state this:

Conclusions
CA survivors commonly experience a broad range of cognitive themes, with 2% exhibiting full awareness. This supports other recent studies that have indicated consciousness may be present despite clinically undetectable consciousness. This together with fearful experiences may contribute to PTSD and other cognitive deficits post CA.

In short, after interviewing 140 people that had a cardiac arrest, in which only 9% reported a NDE, they came to the conclusion that during a CA episode ( not one which the person is declared brain dead, simply where a person experiences a CA) that people MA still be conscious even if consciousness is not detectable.

Which is exactly what has been said for the longest time.

This does NOT address the NDE that people claim to have during a CA and it does most certainly NOT address NDE in a brain dead patient.

Not the use of the term "MAY":
"consciousness may be present"
"fearful experiences may contribute to PTSD and other cognitive deficits post CA"

In short the study PROVED nothing either way but only re-iterated what other studies concluded MAY happen:
That during a CA episode, one which the brain is STILL active, that people MAY hallucinate.

That is ALL that this study has shown, nothing more and nothing less.

[Audie]

The conclusion of the studied state this:

Conclusions
CA survivors commonly experience a broad range of cognitive themes, with 2% exhibiting full awareness. This supports other recent studies that have indicated consciousness may be present despite clinically undetectable consciousness. This together with fearful experiences may contribute to PTSD and other cognitive deficits post CA.

In short, after interviewing 140 people that had a cardiac arrest, in which only 9% reported a NDE, they came to the conclusion that during a CA episode ( not one which the person is declared brain dead, simply where a person experiences a CA) that people MA still be conscious even if consciousness is not detectable.

Which is exactly what has been said for the longest time.

This does NOT address the NDE that people claim to have during a CA and it does most certainly NOT address NDE in a brain dead patient.

Not the use of the term "MAY":
"consciousness may be present"
"fearful experiences may contribute to PTSD and other cognitive deficits post CA"

In short the study PROVED nothing either way but only re-iterated what other studies concluded MAY happen:
That during a CA episode, one which the brain is STILL active, that people MAY hallucinate.

That is ALL that this study has shown, nothing more and nothing less.

And that is all I ask people to understand about their pro-sites, as well as the con.
Nothing has been proved.
Those with biases will want to believe one side or the other.

Wanting to believe is the first fatal step away from objectivity and into self deception.

I dont "want to believe" either way. If anyone ever figures it out, i'd love to know.

[PaulSacramento]

There is no proof of life after death BUT it can be argued there is evidence for that.
Just as there is evidence that there MAY not be anything beyond death.
The choice that a person makes in believe one over the other has as much to do as what they WANT to believe as where the evidence leads.

[Audie]

There is no proof of life after death BUT it can be argued there is evidence for that.
Just as there is evidence that there MAY not be anything beyond death.
The choice that a person makes in believe one over the other has as much to do as what they WANT to believe as where the evidence leads.

i said it first

[bippy123]

There is no proof of life after death BUT it can be argued there is evidence for that.
Just as there is evidence that there MAY not be anything beyond death.
The choice that a person makes in believe one over the other has as much to do as what they WANT to believe as where the evidence leads.

i said it first

As we see here again , Audie is doing the classical thing yet again by going to a non nde expert who has never done an nde study and holding onto his opinion instead of researching the peer reviewed nde literature . She is holding onto anything and anyone desperately to try to validate her atheistic religion .

Steven novella is actually one of the smarter skeptics but he's been refuted as well . The problem here isn't that one person just had an nde in the aware study but quote a few had conscious awareness during a period where their brains are supposed to be non functional .

I can go through debunking novellas claims but folks just do a google search for skeptiko novella and you will see the same tired old debunked arguments brought up yet again and again by novella .

[bippy123]

But here is a heavy critique and debunking of novella done by alex tsakiris of skeptiko which thoroughly debunks him .im sorry I can't make a more thorough refutation as I'm going through a lot right now .
Forgive me folks

Oops here is the link lol

http://www.skeptiko.com/steven-novella- ... -research/

[Audie]

There is no proof of life after death BUT it can be argued there is evidence for that.
Just as there is evidence that there MAY not be anything beyond death.
The choice that a person makes in believe one over the other has as much to do as what they WANT to believe as where the evidence leads.

i said it first

As we see here again , Audie is doing the classical thing yet again by going to a non nde expert who has never done an nde study and holding onto his opinion instead of researching the peer reviewed nde literature . She is holding onto anything and anyone desperately to try to validate her atheistic religion .

Steven novella is actually one of the smarter skeptics but he's been refuted as well . The problem here isn't that one person just had an nde in the aware study but quote a few had conscious awareness during a period where their brains are supposed to be non functional .

I can go through debunking novellas claims but folks just do a google search for skeptiko novella and you will see the same tired old debunked arguments brought up yet again and again by novella .

Strap hanging on the subway this a.m. and thinking about the words of BW and bip (B1 and B2) while trying to avoid being trampled underfoot. Now with Starbux and scone..

Should it be the case that if our Bs truly and earnestly do believe that they have, or rather areimmortal souls, whose existence was granted them by the Creator, might they not find it behooves them to try to improve their souls, rather than to devalue them?

We see here in the post above that no mention is made of the actual ideas I expressed, or that PaulSac said the same thing, in different words. No, it is yet again as per B1 earlier in the thread, falsehoods and calumny directed in an attack on my integrity.

It may well be that one well versed in the practice of self deception finds it a matter of no challenge at all to actually believe the things said against me are true, and thus not merely be shielded against any repercussions, but granted the moral high from which to express outrage at having his words called a lying sack of garbage.

But how would I know what is true of me? Im just the one they are lying about.

These "souls" so readily detached to float about having divers adventures, are said to come with an instruction manual from their Creator, such that one is not to do certain things, prominent among those being the injunction against bearing false witness.

Perhaps, to some, "philosophy" is what one knows how to talk about, with fine sounding words, and "religion" or "Christianity" are likewise a matter of what one speaks of. To actually live with integrity the life of a philosopher or Christian is a most difficult thing, and one is not to be blamed if it is beyond their capacity.

Still, they might make at least a half-hearted attempt to avoid further burdening their souls with such as casual theft or gratuitous lies.

In that book they hold so dear, it says somewhere "By their deeds ye syhall know them."

If it doesnt, it should. Its how I know them.

[Proinsias]

Think of the worst child sadist murdering molester actually gets away with the deed. in fact, since there is only nothingness in the universe that is constant, then the worst child sadist murdering molester cannot be guilty of anything wrong can she/he? In fact, you going to college is a complete waste of time. All you do - a complete meaningless waste.

Sadistic child murdering molester? Worry not, Jesus saves and heaven awaits, we all struggle with one kind of sin or another. Even God's not too shy about commanding child murder in the OT.

[PaulSacramento]

But here is a heavy critique and debunking of novella done by alex tsakiris of skeptiko which thoroughly debunks him .im sorry I can't make a more thorough refutation as I'm going through a lot right now .
Forgive me folks

Oops here is the link lol

http://www.skeptiko.com/steven-novella- ... -research/

Excellent example of the issues we are currently having in science that have made editors of some of the leading scientific journals explicitly state that "peer reviewed" studies are becoming a joke.

[Audie]

But here is a heavy critique and debunking of novella done by alex tsakiris of skeptiko which thoroughly debunks him .im sorry I can't make a more thorough refutation as I'm going through a lot right now .
Forgive me folks

Oops here is the link lol

http://www.skeptiko.com/steven-novella- ... -research/

Excellent example of the issues we are currently having in science that have made editors of some of the leading scientific journals explicitly state that "peer reviewed" studies are becoming a joke.

Sharp knives cut both ways.