Evidence for God from Science

A very good day to you all,

Before starting this whole thing, there are a few points that I’d really like to cover before desribing the theory that I have.
1. I want to first let you all know that I’m new here as well as to the subject and that everything what I’m about to say is purely theoretical. It could be flawed, it could contain contraditions. If it does, I’d be happy to hear that in the form of a feedback.
2. I’m taking this from the most neutral perspective as possible since that’s how I like to perceive problems and discussions. This seems to me to be also the most reliable and objective approach. Remember that I’m not choosing sides just for the sake of me being religious or not.
3. I have tried my very best to make my theory sound as logical as possible based on our human way of thinking. The thing is, it could be that the very truth isn’t logical at all, but we’d never know. That’s why this is just a theory.
4. It could be that there are a mixture of people around here who already have chosen sides (i.e. religious or athestistic) to the extent that they have hard time to objectively open their minds for new possible ideas coming from the opposite side. To those people, I’m asking to please step away from that chosen side, stand in a neutral position and try to read what I’m going to tell you objectively. After that, try to draw conclusions objectively and THEN choose a side based on those conclusions.
5. Finally, the God I’m talking about here is the Biblical God who is, as it is stated in the Bible, above our human logic and understanding, being omniscient, omnipotent, has given us freedom of choice.

Here it goes,

Lately, I have been brainstorming about probably one of the most controversial religious subjects that has been discussed endlessly. Namely, the combination about 1. God being all-knowing (omniscient), 2. being able to influence and change anything (omnipotent) in time while at the same time 3. having given us freedom of choice.

Here’s the thing how I see it, the combination of being all-knowing while giving us freedom of choice at the same time are 2 characteristics that are compatible with each other. After all, I could know that you’re going outside tomorrow and die a carcrash but I’m not influencing you to do the choices that lead to that moment.

The same goes for the compatible combination of being able to influence someone/something while giving you freedom as well but NOT being all-knowing. Note that in this case, influencing someone only means that you’re able to do that in a specific time frame and not continiously. So in this case, I could influence you to go outside tomorrow but I would NOT know that this influence would lead you to die in a car crash. You would think, where’s the freedom here then? Well since my influence was only temporarily, it was your choice to cross over that particular street in that particular time. The rest of the options are in your hands.

It is however the combination of ALL 3 things (1. being all-knowing, 2. being omnipotent and 3. giving us freedom) that makes this whole thing clash together. If God is able to change or influence something in our world, he would know what its consequences would be since he’s all-knowing as well. Where’s the freedom then? Back to the above mentioned example; if I DO something that MAKES you go outside (for example you getting a phone call to do groceries) while I KNOW that you’d die in a car crash if I influenced you that way, then there’s not many options for you left to choose (I know which street you’re going to cross at what time, all as consequences of me influencing you). In that case, there’s no freedom since you got influenced by God while your consecutive actions, that are caused by this influence, are known by that very same God. Freedom is gone. A biblical example is the flood that God caused at the time of Noah. The consequence of that flood, although having a very indirect link, is that someone is now born who went outside and died in a car crash, and God KNEW that if he’d cause the flood. How would it go if God didn’t cause a flood in particular but something else? What I’m trying to say here, regarding indirect links, is that the smallest things could have consequences over an infinite period of time. A drop of rain could have caused a plant to grow, which would be a home for particular insects, which in turn reproduce and cause havoc, etc. etc.

I could hear the sound of my brain cracking trying to comprehend the combination of these 3 characteristics (1. being all-knowing, 2. being omnipotent and 3. giving us freedom). How could they be compatible with each other? That is when I started to think in dimensions (very random, I know). As I understand the biblical God is above everything, above our space dimension as well as above our time dimension. That is when I thought, if he’s above time, then there IS NO thing such as influencing someone or changing something over time. Everything already has been planned out. Influencing or changing something needs a time factor, you’d wait for that particular moment to influence or change it. However, since God is above time, he ALREADY sees those moments happening all the time and has already planned out all his influences and changes. Try to see it as someone looking at a movie that is printed out in frames. Everything is already planned out, and there wasn’t any other possibility than you going outside and dying in that carcrash in the first place. You’d think, “well who has planned this all out, who made that movie print?” Well, if someone is above the dimensions of time and space, then he’d be able to manipulate them in any way. How one would be able to do that would be a question that is above our dimensional thinking since we are beneath and subjects to those dimensions.

A new problem has now arisen. If God has already planned this all this out and has chosen what will happen in every moment of our lives, then where’s the freedom in that as well? Again, to answer this question you’d have to think in dimensions. Since God is above time and space, it isn’t freedom from HIS view. However, since we are subject to time and can’t comprehend how someone would be able to be above that dimension and manipulate it, for us it would FEEL as if we have freedom of choice. It’s all relative (a great scientific saying, or so I find). Relativity is what evolves around everything. If I’m moving with respect to you, I could say that you’re moving with respect to me.

I’m very open to feedback on this theory and I would be pleased to read them. If viewed objectively, are there any flaws or contradictions here?

Allow me to rehash your theory just to double-check that I understand it. You're positing that since God knows everything we do and has the power to influence everything, that our free will is merely an illusion seen from our perspective and that from God's point of view, we don't have free will?

If I misunderstanding that please correct me, but I'm going to respond as if the above is an accurate summary of your position and if it turns out I'm wrong then I'll change my response accordingly.

1) I think from God's point of view, we do have free will -otherwise it wouldn't be just to punish or reward people for doing something they didn't choose to do or had no control over.

2) I think the definition of free will needs to be amended to " a freedom of choice dictated by nature" - I say that because I could choose to respond to this post or not, but my nature (the part of me interested in philosophical discussions) dictates that given the opportunity I will almost always choose to participate in such a conversation.

3) In following with #2, humans, as a whole, make choices dictated by their sin nature (that is the natural tendency to do what feels best with no regard for God, aka rebel)

Those three points having been made, if God wanted to show mercy, grace and love - then part of doing that will have to include overriding man's natural tendency to rebel against Him. In short, if there was no intervention and all free-will then no one would choose to believe. But since God wanted to show mercy, grace and love He intervened and changed the nature of those of us who believe so that now our natural inclination is to freely choose to do the things that are pleasing to Him.

So in the end, I don't think that God being all-knowing and all-powerful impedes on our freedom of choice but I think that He intentionally does so in order that everyone doesn't rebel.

And once again, as I mentioned at the beginning, if I've misunderstood your post then please correct me and I will update my response accordingly .

Sciencigion wrote:A new problem has now arisen. If God has already planned this all this out and has chosen what will happen in every moment of our lives, then where’s the freedom in that as well?

What do these verses reveal to you listed in three translations to help capture the Hebrew textual import?

"They have set up kings, but not by Me; They have appointed princes, but I did not know it." Hosea 8:4 NASB

"My people appoint kings I do not want. They choose princes without my permission.," Hosea 8:4 NIrV

"My people chose kings, but they did it on their own. They appointed leaders, but without my approval." Hosea 8:4 GNB
-
-
-

Sciencigion wrote:A very good day to you all,

...
5. Finally, the God I’m talking about here is the Biblical God who is, as it is stated in the Bible, above our human logic and understanding, being omniscient, omnipotent, has given us freedom of choice.

...
I could hear the sound of my brain cracking trying to comprehend the combination of these ...
A new problem has now arisen. If God has already planned this all this out and has chosen what will happen in every moment of our lives, then where’s the freedom in that as well? ...
I’m very open to feedback on this theory and I would be pleased to read them. If viewed objectively, are there any flaws or contradictions here?

Sci, you are a big thinker, and I am privileged to read what you have put forward.

We both know that God made all things with the calculations of all possibilities with it, and the foreknowledge of every outcome.
This also means that any intervention has also been calculated, eg the cross, the flood, and every time we are saved from temptation by a way of escape.

This is automatically done by the Word, by which He creates and has created. The Word is like God, containing the very life of God, and therefor His intelligence, power and wisdom.
If God ceased from work, the universe would run automatically, -every creature knowing where the next lot of food is, every planet finding its balanced orbit, and every human getting encouraged by angels and the Spirit to make better choices. etc.

Now we presume that if something has a specific outcome or a predictable outcome, that freedom is like chaos and cannot be added to the formula.
But in fact, all things, living and non living so to speak, have a very broad spectrum of behaviors so far as options are concerned, but they also have tendencies to do what is easiest, and therefor the outcomes of all behaviors can actually be describing both freedom and precise results. So chaos and freedom are not necessarily connected.

Then why do we have chaos?
Because there is only one creation, which has the ability to resign from the design - the human being.
We were created to have freedom from every influence, totally free from any predictability, if we wanted it.

And unfortunately and unnecessarily, we did use that option.
We had hundreds of thousands of varieties of foods to eat, but we chose the forbidden fruit.
Through that one avenue of choice to resign from God, came in the possibility of freedom from God, freedom from the source of life, freedom of connection, the freedom not to love.

Love has to have a completely free identity of both lovers.
God already has His free and independent identity, we were to recognize we had one too, through the test of the forbidden fruit.
Adam would have realized with a little time, his independence of thought to God. Both parties in this relationship were to be free of each other, to be able to love genuinely.

Here is where God draws the line between intervention and influence. He will woo us, but not interfere with our will.

What about Sodom and Gomorrah? Where was their free will?

If and when, in the judgement, these people see what would have transpired, had not God ended their life, they will thank Him for doing what He did. It was already becoming very apparent what kind of a cruel and stupid society they were in the days of Lot. Only heaven knows what would they would have done to each other, had time permitted.

Jesus died to preserve that freedom of will. Rocks don't have it, trees don't have it, and animals have limits through instinct.
Men don't have any limits on their choices. Hence we have a world of antagonistic principles at work, and a lot of questions about freedom.

I thank you all for the great feedback guys. Please allow me comment on them by each user. If I have understood something wrong, please correct me:

NobodySpecial (yes you are! )

“…merely an illusion seen from our perspective and that from God’s point of view, we don’t have free will?”

Here’s the thing; I didn’t mean to state it as an illusion, since there is no thing such as an illusion in relativity. It’s more the fact that there is no absolute. The truth is different depending on how you look at it. If I see you moving with respect to myself, it doesn’t mean that I’m seeing an illusion just because I’m actually the one who’s moving with respect to you.

“I think from God's point of view, we do have free will -otherwise it wouldn't be just to punish or reward people for doing something they didn't choose to do or had no control over.”

Sorry if I sound so vague but could you please elaborate how someone, who is above time and space and being able to see and influence those dimensions, would see it as a free will? Thing is, punishing or rewarding someone means that someone would have to first WAIT and SEE if that someone deserves the one or the other; it needs a time factor AND the inability to know someone’s choices to be able to decide whether someone needs to be punished or rewarded. However, God is ABOVE time and omniscient; he ALREADY sees the punishment or reward as well as someone’s choices leading to it. Do you see the contradiction in those characteristics I’m talking about? Isn’t it possible that God knows that we, as humans, would see it as a thing over time from our perspective and thus Him describing it in that way in the Bible to meet our dimensional thinking?

“Your point 2”

What has made you being interested in philosophical discussions? Couldn’t it be that God has chosen that path of interest for you since he’s omnipotent? If that’s the case, then every consequence of that interest, i.e. you responding to this post, is a result of God choosing you to be interested in philosophical discussions. God KNOWS that you’ll respond to my post because he knows what the consequences are of putting that interest in you. I could say the same about when God created you in particular. He knows the consequences of creating you, namely that you’ll be interested in philosophical discussions and replying to my post. I could say the same when he even has created the universe; he knows the consequences of creating the universe since he is above all dimensions.

B.W.

I’m glad you have given me verses on this since I’m not very well knowledged by them.

Regarding the first verse, it would reveal to me that God isn’t omniscient ("did not know")
As for the other 2 verses, it would reveal to me that he isn’t knowledged what the consequences are from His influences when creating these people. Because if he DID know the consequences, then nothing would have surpassed his permission since he approved and allowed them to happen in the first place when he created those people.

Are there any other interpretations you would have from those verses? I’d be glad to hear them.

Starhunter

I thank you for what I would take as a compliment . Please correct me if I have understood your explanation the wrong way in my comments beneath:

“Because there is only one creation, which has the ability to resign from the design - the human being. We were created to have freedom from every influence, totally free from any predictability, if we wanted it”

So if I understand correctly, God is able to calculate the predictability and possible outcomes of every living and non-living thing, except for us humans? Wouldn’t that make Him not omniscient?

Regarding being able to calculate the predictability of living and non-living things except for humans, I find it very hard to separate those two since they both influence each other quite a lot and are intertwined to a large extent. Where’s then the border where predictability starts or ceases? A very simple example: If humans cause havoc by burning down forests and killing animals, how would God then know the predictability of the ecosystem changing while at the same time not know WHAT has caused this ecosystem to change? We humans are very much influenced by our surroundings which in turn, get influenced by us as well. This concludes that the predictability of everything depends on everything. In other words, you’re either able to predict everything or nothing.

You said the following:
“We were created to have freedom from every influence, totally free from any predictability, if we wanted it.”

While saying this afterwards:
“About Sodom and Gomorrah? Where was their free will? If and when, in the judgement, these people see what would have transpired, had not God ended their life, they will thank Him for doing what He did. Only heaven knows what would they would have done to each other, had time permitted.”

Which I find are clashing together. How can we humans be free from any predictability while at the same time God was able to predict Sodom and Gomorrah’s actions and therefore ending their lives?

"He will woo us, but not interfere with our will"

If he woos us while having the knowledge of what our will would be after that particular woo, then that means he’s able to interfere with our will since he could woo us in any particular way and know every will that we would develop after any woo.


Looking forward to your feedbacks

When I call my dog back to the house, I know the results, he won't listen, if he is burying a bone.

But I must call him anyway, to let him know that I am happy to have him here. I don't have to, but then I know that he will miss me calling, besides he thinks that after I wait for two minutes it will be all the more a homely welcome, just because he runs faster. Well yes, I am pleased regardless of what he does, even though I know his responses to my calling. If I want him to go in the car for a ride, I have a different call, which he responds to straight away, bone or fresh meat makes no difference.

So I am all knowing, and yet I concede to whatever happens, because the dog makes me laugh.

I'm not sure what would be any different to an all knowing God, seeing that He has made all things for His pleasure.

Starhunter wrote:When I call my dog back to the house, I know the results, he won't listen, if he is burying a bone.

But I must call him anyway, to let him know that I am happy to have him here. I don't have to, but then I know that he will miss me calling, besides he thinks that after I wait for two minutes it will be all the more a homely welcome, just because he runs faster. Well yes, I am pleased regardless of what he does, even though I know his responses to my calling. If I want him to go in the car for a ride, I have a different call, which he responds to straight away, bone or fresh meat makes no difference.

So I am all knowing, and yet I concede to whatever happens, because the dog makes me laugh.

I'm not sure what would be any different to an all knowing God, seeing that He has made all things for His pleasure.

Now that is good
-
-
-

Sciencigion wrote:B.W.

I’m glad you have given me verses on this since I’m not very well knowledged by them.

Regarding the first verse, it would reveal to me that God isn’t omniscient ("did not know")
As for the other 2 verses, it would reveal to me that he isn’t knowledged what the consequences are from His influences when creating these people. Because if he DID know the consequences, then nothing would have surpassed his permission since he approved and allowed them to happen in the first place when he created those people.

Are there any other interpretations you would have from those verses? I’d be glad to hear them.

I gave you the same verse from three English translations to help point out in the original Hebrew language the emphasis is that people have free moral agency to choose what is not approved by God and in this case bad leaders, which they did and people today still do.

Despite this, God moves onward with his plans, purposes, and agenda more than able to all powerfully work through all things to steer these to his final goal mentioned in Rev 21:1 because he knows all (omnisciently) well in before any human being ever was.

That is what this verse demonstrates as well as the event surrounding this show.

Here are two commentaries on this verse:

Pulpit Commentary on Hosea 8:4 reads:

They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not. Here was the first instance and evidence of Israel’s rejection of Jehovah. Their conduct was not guided by Divine direction, nor in obedience to the Divine will, nor with the Divine sanction. This state of things began with Israel’s revolt from the house of David, and rebellion against the son of Solomon their legitimate sovereign, and was repeated in subsequent usurpations. Perhaps we may go further back, even to the appointment of the first king of the yet undivided kingdom, when "the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary on Hosea 8:4 reads

kings ... not by me — not with My sanction (1 Kings 11:31; 1 Kings 12:20). Israel set up Jeroboam and his successors, whereas God had appointed the house of David as the rightful kings of the whole nation

I knew it not — I approved it not (Psalms 1:6).

-
-
-

Sciencigion wrote:... Namely, the combination about 1. God being all-knowing (omniscient), 2. being able to influence and change anything (omnipotent) in time while at the same time 3. having given us freedom of choice.

...
It is however the combination of ALL 3 things (1. being all-knowing, 2. being omnipotent and 3. giving us freedom) that makes this whole thing clash together. If God is able to change or influence something in our world, he would know what its consequences would be since he’s all-knowing as well. Where’s the freedom then? ...

These questions entail the question of why does God allow...certain things to happen...why evil?

And that's what could make it all confusing. Such as the car crash illustration - it seems like it is a deliberate act of negligence on God's behalf.

Would you say that is one of the issues here?

I've been thinking about your Q's and I'm not sure I really get them. Maybe I have not gone into it like you have.

But it's interesting if we look at circumstances and the things which enable matter and life to exist, the finger points at God, because we can't even control whether we are born or not.
Life itself and all the circumstances prove that it takes a lot of factors - infinite in number, to produce and run the creation. And what part of that we play? very little?

What is freedom? Does it require us to have full control of all the factors which make our life? Are we limited, and is that limitation the end of free choice?

I need your feed back, to see if I am staying on course.

Sciencigion wrote:A very good day to you all,

Before starting this whole thing, there are a few points that I’d really like to cover before desribing the theory that I have.
1. I want to first let you all know that I’m new here as well as to the subject and that everything what I’m about to say is purely theoretical. It could be flawed, it could contain contraditions. If it does, I’d be happy to hear that in the form of a feedback.
2. I’m taking this from the most neutral perspective as possible since that’s how I like to perceive problems and discussions. This seems to me to be also the most reliable and objective approach. Remember that I’m not choosing sides just for the sake of me being religious or not.
3. I have tried my very best to make my theory sound as logical as possible based on our human way of thinking. The thing is, it could be that the very truth isn’t logical at all, but we’d never know. That’s why this is just a theory.
4. It could be that there are a mixture of people around here who already have chosen sides (i.e. religious or athestistic) to the extent that they have hard time to objectively open their minds for new possible ideas coming from the opposite side. To those people, I’m asking to please step away from that chosen side, stand in a neutral position and try to read what I’m going to tell you objectively. After that, try to draw conclusions objectively and THEN choose a side based on those conclusions.
5. Finally, the God I’m talking about here is the Biblical God who is, as it is stated in the Bible, above our human logic and understanding, being omniscient, omnipotent, has given us freedom of choice.

Here it goes,

Lately, I have been brainstorming about probably one of the most controversial religious subjects that has been discussed endlessly. Namely, the combination about 1. God being all-knowing (omniscient), 2. being able to influence and change anything (omnipotent) in time while at the same time 3. having given us freedom of choice.

Here’s the thing how I see it, the combination of being all-knowing while giving us freedom of choice at the same time are 2 characteristics that are compatible with each other. After all, I could know that you’re going outside tomorrow and die a carcrash but I’m not influencing you to do the choices that lead to that moment.

The same goes for the compatible combination of being able to influence someone/something while giving you freedom as well but NOT being all-knowing. Note that in this case, influencing someone only means that you’re able to do that in a specific time frame and not continiously. So in this case, I could influence you to go outside tomorrow but I would NOT know that this influence would lead you to die in a car crash. You would think, where’s the freedom here then? Well since my influence was only temporarily, it was your choice to cross over that particular street in that particular time. The rest of the options are in your hands.

It is however the combination of ALL 3 things (1. being all-knowing, 2. being omnipotent and 3. giving us freedom) that makes this whole thing clash together. If God is able to change or influence something in our world, he would know what its consequences would be since he’s all-knowing as well. Where’s the freedom then? Back to the above mentioned example; if I DO something that MAKES you go outside (for example you getting a phone call to do groceries) while I KNOW that you’d die in a car crash if I influenced you that way, then there’s not many options for you left to choose (I know which street you’re going to cross at what time, all as consequences of me influencing you). In that case, there’s no freedom since you got influenced by God while your consecutive actions, that are caused by this influence, are known by that very same God. Freedom is gone. A biblical example is the flood that God caused at the time of Noah. The consequence of that flood, although having a very indirect link, is that someone is now born who went outside and died in a car crash, and God KNEW that if he’d cause the flood. How would it go if God didn’t cause a flood in particular but something else? What I’m trying to say here, regarding indirect links, is that the smallest things could have consequences over an infinite period of time. A drop of rain could have caused a plant to grow, which would be a home for particular insects, which in turn reproduce and cause havoc, etc. etc.

I could hear the sound of my brain cracking trying to comprehend the combination of these 3 characteristics (1. being all-knowing, 2. being omnipotent and 3. giving us freedom). How could they be compatible with each other? That is when I started to think in dimensions (very random, I know). As I understand the biblical God is above everything, above our space dimension as well as above our time dimension. That is when I thought, if he’s above time, then there IS NO thing such as influencing someone or changing something over time. Everything already has been planned out. Influencing or changing something needs a time factor, you’d wait for that particular moment to influence or change it. However, since God is above time, he ALREADY sees those moments happening all the time and has already planned out all his influences and changes. Try to see it as someone looking at a movie that is printed out in frames. Everything is already planned out, and there wasn’t any other possibility than you going outside and dying in that carcrash in the first place. You’d think, “well who has planned this all out, who made that movie print?” Well, if someone is above the dimensions of time and space, then he’d be able to manipulate them in any way. How one would be able to do that would be a question that is above our dimensional thinking since we are beneath and subjects to those dimensions.

A new problem has now arisen. If God has already planned this all this out and has chosen what will happen in every moment of our lives, then where’s the freedom in that as well? Again, to answer this question you’d have to think in dimensions. Since God is above time and space, it isn’t freedom from HIS view. However, since we are subject to time and can’t comprehend how someone would be able to be above that dimension and manipulate it, for us it would FEEL as if we have freedom of choice. It’s all relative (a great scientific saying, or so I find). Relativity is what evolves around everything. If I’m moving with respect to you, I could say that you’re moving with respect to me.

I’m very open to feedback on this theory and I would be pleased to read them. If viewed objectively, are there any flaws or contradictions here?

If God is above our human logic and understanding, how do we KNOW He is omniscient, omnipotent, and has given us freedom of choice?

Starhunter wrote:

Sciencigion wrote:... Namely, the combination about 1. God being all-knowing (omniscient), 2. being able to influence and change anything (omnipotent) in time while at the same time 3. having given us freedom of choice.

...
It is however the combination of ALL 3 things (1. being all-knowing, 2. being omnipotent and 3. giving us freedom) that makes this whole thing clash together. If God is able to change or influence something in our world, he would know what its consequences would be since he’s all-knowing as well. Where’s the freedom then? ...

These questions entail the question of why does God allow...certain things to happen...why evil?

And that's what could make it all confusing. Such as the car crash illustration - it seems like it is a deliberate act of negligence on God's behalf.

Would you say that is one of the issues here?

I've been thinking about your Q's and I'm not sure I really get them. Maybe I have not gone into it like you have.

But it's interesting if we look at circumstances and the things which enable matter and life to exist, the finger points at God, because we can't even control whether we are born or not.
Life itself and all the circumstances prove that it takes a lot of factors - infinite in number, to produce and run the creation. And what part of that we play? very little?

What is freedom? Does it require us to have full control of all the factors which make our life? Are we limited, and is that limitation the end of free choice?

I need your feed back, to see if I am staying on course.

Since God is beyond our understanding, how do we know our concept of good and evil, is the same as His?

God says in Jeremiah, "My thoughts are not your thoughts" and in another place "as high as the heavens are above the earth" ...so God's ways are not ours?

It would be fair to say that we don't really know what is good and bad.

stuartcr wrote:...If God is above our human logic and understanding, how do we KNOW He is omniscient, omnipotent, and has given us freedom of choice?

He is a God and since God, a God of truth. Logic indicates that a God of truth would reveal himself to us and set forth truthful standard and testimony of himself and his dealing with humanity. He did so as recorded in the Scriptures. As I study these in all manner, I am amazed at how the symbols, numbers. Hebrew root pictograph, name meanings, etc, all connect and reveal truths in the context of the scripture passages they are found in that transcend all possibility that human beings concocted this book. There is a divine intelligence that testify and screams from the the bible on the truthfulness of God as being totally and absolutely omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

Freedom of choice could only be granted by God who is all powerful because what would he have to fear from this? If he denied it, how then could he really be omnipotent? This also testifies to the Goodness and fairness of God as well...

stuartcr wrote:Since God is beyond our understanding, how do we know our concept of good and evil, is the same as His?

Only if we hear and see/understand his testimony he recorded for us in his dealing with humanity can we begin to gain insight into what is functionally good and is dysfunctionally evil. The fall into sin caused humanity to miss out on what functionally good really is. Therefore, only truth from God reveals the concepts concerning what is and what is not functionally good. There is no other way because we grope in the dark to make our way and justify dysfunctionally bad as functionally good so we need a new heart transformed by the word of God... to instruct us on these matters.
-
-
-

B. W. wrote:

stuartcr wrote:...If God is above our human logic and understanding, how do we KNOW He is omniscient, omnipotent, and has given us freedom of choice?

He is a God and since God, a God of truth. Logic indicates that a God of truth would reveal himself to us and set forth truthful standard and testimony of himself and his dealing with humanity. He did so as recorded in the Scriptures. As I study these in all manner, I am amazed at how the symbols, numbers. Hebrew root pictograph, name meanings, etc, all connect and reveal truths in the context of the scripture passages they are found in that transcend all possibility that human beings concocted this book. There is a divine intelligence that testify and screams from the the bible on the truthfulness of God as being totally and absolutely omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

Freedom of choice could only be granted by God who is all powerful because what would he have to fear from this? If he denied it, how then could he really be omnipotent? This also testifies to the Goodness and fairness of God as well...

stuartcr wrote:Since God is beyond our understanding, how do we know our concept of good and evil, is the same as His?

Only if we hear and see/understand his testimony he recorded for us in his dealing with humanity can we begin to gain insight into what is functionally good and is dysfunctionally evil. The fall into sin caused humanity to miss out on what functionally good really is. Therefore, only truth from God reveals the concepts concerning what is and what is not functionally good. There is no other way because we grope in the dark to make our way and justify dysfunctionally bad as functionally good so we need a new heart transformed by the word of God... to instruct us on these matters.
-
-
-

Why do you say logic indicates that a God of truth would reveal Himself to us? How do we know our logic is adequate to understand God?

stuartcr wrote:

B. W. wrote:

stuartcr wrote:...If God is above our human logic and understanding, how do we KNOW He is omniscient, omnipotent, and has given us freedom of choice?

He is a God and since God, a God of truth. Logic indicates that a God of truth would reveal himself to us and set forth truthful standard and testimony of himself and his dealing with humanity. He did so as recorded in the Scriptures. As I study these in all manner, I am amazed at how the symbols, numbers. Hebrew root pictograph, name meanings, etc, all connect and reveal truths in the context of the scripture passages they are found in that transcend all possibility that human beings concocted this book. There is a divine intelligence that testify and screams from the the bible on the truthfulness of God as being totally and absolutely omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

Freedom of choice could only be granted by God who is all powerful because what would he have to fear from this? If he denied it, how then could he really be omnipotent? This also testifies to the Goodness and fairness of God as well...

stuartcr wrote:Since God is beyond our understanding, how do we know our concept of good and evil, is the same as His?

Only if we hear and see/understand his testimony he recorded for us in his dealing with humanity can we begin to gain insight into what is functionally good and is dysfunctionally evil. The fall into sin caused humanity to miss out on what functionally good really is. Therefore, only truth from God reveals the concepts concerning what is and what is not functionally good. There is no other way because we grope in the dark to make our way and justify dysfunctionally bad as functionally good so we need a new heart transformed by the word of God... to instruct us on these matters.

Why do you say logic indicates that a God of truth would reveal Himself to us? How do we know our logic is adequate to understand God?

Intelligent beings make themselves known. It is what intelligent beings do.

Intelligent beings can either find each other or ignore all the evidence another intelligent being is even around. Such ignoring evidence does not mean another is not around - it means one just presupposes the evidence is not there.

In fact, you made yourself known on this forum. and that is self evident truth, is it not?

Have nice day
-
-
-