Evidence for God from Science

Hey everyone, I'm needing some help, advice, resources or anything that will help me as far as being more effective in praying for others especially for the salvation of people I know and love. I'm specifically concerned about reaching lost friends, co workers and family members.

I'm also very passionate praying for and feel lead to pray for many women that I have known and loved during various times in my life. Many of them I used to know, currently know and some I've never known but just have either seen once or twice, or have only known them through media i.e. tv, internet, radio and so on.

I kind of want to become like that praying mother or grandmother that prays earnestly for the salvation and the protection and love for their saved or lost children and grandchildren. I've heard many stories of such praying individuals who because of their prayers and their faith were able to have their prayers answered in seeing their loved ones either come to Christ and or protection, love and peace for whatever it was they were going through.

I especially think anymore these days with the way people are, prayer is the best weapon in our arsenal as believers because most lost people these days you can't have a conversation with about anything let alone about Christ, Christianity or the Bible. It's like Christ has become THE lightning rod of hate and THE hot button topic that angers most people who don't know Him.

Just look at anyone who is far left, gay, or an atheist and you will see what I mean. I don't even have to go any further I'm fully aware that most of you here know. And that's why for the most part I've given up "talking" with such people a long time ago because again you CAN'T have conversations with these types anymore.

They won't give you the time of day and they are always ready with an excuse to anything you have to say. And sadly many of my loved ones, friends, co-workers and the various women that I've met in my life are under these categories of people you can't reach or can't have conversations with. Many of them currently hate and despise me because of my faith, my moral stances and so on and they avoid me every chance they get so I know those people I can't reach out to because they won't give me the time of day.

So again it leaves prayer as my primary and pretty much only option in helping such people get saved if they are ever going to. So from that what can I do to make my prayers for them more effective and help my faith increase so there will be a much better chance they will see the light and come to know Christ and be protected from all the evil and danger in this current world?

Or should I even care this much for people anymore? Are they so far gone that I should just give up on them? Should I just be more selfish and be more about me and assuring that I myself and myself only makes it into heaven and just forget about these lost people that I know and love?

And if I don't see most of my family,friends, and others that I loved and cared about in heaven what will God do to help me with pain knowing that they are in hell for all eternity? How will I and anyone else who goes to heaven but has lost friends and loved ones be able to cope and still enjoy eternal life with knowing that such people are forever lost and are being tormented forever in a devil's hellfire? Any ideas will be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much and God bless.

DRDS, earnest and honest prayers that match up with God's will are what are effective. Period! Christians often love to think there is so optimum prayer technique or methodology that makes prayer more effective. Fact is, the prayers of a poor, illiterate dirt farmer who righteously seeks the Lord can be more effective than that of the most eloquent-speaking pastor.

See James 5:16: “The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working” — which is also translated, as an ESV footnote spells out, “The effective prayer of a righteous person has great power.”

As for how to evangelize those so often resistant to traditional approaches, I HIGHLY recommend Norman Geisler's wonderful book, "Conversational Evangelism" - it really opened my eyes as well as encouraged me!

What Philip said is very good. On top of that I'll say, you can't save everyone. That is the plain ugly truth. Some people are bound to be where they want and there is nothing you can do to change that, or God for that matter. Prayer doesn't save anyone. If it did, all we'd do was prayer and no evangelism would be needed.

The thing is, and it is beautiful, whomever wants to be with God, can be with God. You can't shovel down salvation down someone's throat if they don't want or like it. You can't pray to God to save someone unless they themselves want it too. God doesn't automatically turns anyone heart so that they could be saved. If HE did that why not turn everyone's heart and save every last human there is, save everyone? But no, he doesn't. I guess prayer is only useful in case where there is actual opportunity and you are sincere and caring.

When Christ was on the cross he didn't pray "Forgive and save these people for they know not what they do". He said "Forgive these people...". The saving couldn't be done like that.

I like what C.S Lewis once wrote "The doors of hell are locked from the inside."

I don't know it just seems so hopeless as far as winning anyone I know and love to God. It's like I'm going to lose nearly everyone I know and love. And sadly many if not most of the "believers" I know personally in my local area are stupid, arrogant, hateful, bitter, ugly, self-righteous, legalistic morons. And sadly this time of year many of them haven't discovered the wonderful invention of DEODORANT either!

Seriously, I just don't understand why God just allows satan to get away with winning the vast majority of the human race, you would think as more powerful God is to satan He would not allow it to happen. You would think that He could work things around to where at least half or more of the human race makes it into heaven, but no we have to have only .000000001% or less of make it in and all the rest goes to hell that's just lovely!

And speaking about satan, why did God have to create that piece of garbage in the first place? Did God not know ahead of time from eternity past, that satan would rebel and cause all this mess? If satan would have never been created in the first place or was made in such a way that he would never have wanted to rebel than EVIL WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED. And there would have been no bad options for our FREEWILL to choose.

If God is indeed all powerful, all knowing, and all loving why didn't He just create the universe, the world, and all living things without allowing satan or anyone else to rebel and we would have what we will eventually have with the new heavens and the new earth right now with MORE PEOPLE instead of what we are really going to have a new heavens and new earth with probably only a couple thousand, a couple hundred or a couple hundred thousand if we are very very lucky make it in to enjoy it.

With the quality of people that I know who are believers with the exception of people like William Lane Criag, Gary Habermas and bippy123, I'll have very few people who I will want to hang out with in heaven. I mean who else am I going to hang out with there? Fred Phelps? Tammy Faye Baker? Jimmy Swaggert???!!!

I just hope there are other worlds and universes out there where God is doing the same thing such as the one we are on just so we will have more people in heaven because if this is the only universe and world there is then like I said earlier expect only .00000001% or less of humanity to make it in. Either that or I hope God somehow creates more human beings or more something in the news heavens and new earth because if not I will certainly get tired of being around the same hand full of arrogant, bitter, self-righteous, ugly, legalistic well you get the idea.

But that's how I feel, I feel like I can't do anything good or productive and I'm just spinning my wheels because the people I want to see saved won't have anything to do with it and the ones who are I can't stand.

Maybe as I said in my original post I should just go back to being more selfish and more about me basically, be more like the arrogant, bitter, self-righteous believers in my local area and don't even care about the lost or about people in general since most are going to hell anyway and there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it.

It can be frustrating but don't let it get you down.You are kind of sounding like an atheist but I understand where you are coming from.It does seem like we are just spinning our wheels trying to reach the lost,but I don't think we should stop trying to.You have to remember that God is in control even when it seems like Satan is really in control,it can even look like Satan is winning but he is'nt. I think you should spend some time reading about end-time bible prophecy because I think it will give you some answers to things that frustrate you.If I just look at what's going on from a non-biblical view then it is depressing but when I bring in the word with understanding I actually get excited because I see more prophecies being fulfilled and I know God's word is going to be fulfilled because it is true and there are a lot of things that we can expect for the last days,God's will is going to be done so try to look at it from God's perspective and line your thinking up with his will and I think if you do,you'll know you are on the winning team and not losing like it might seem.

DRDS wrote:I don't know it just seems so hopeless as far as winning anyone I know and love to God. It's like I'm going to lose nearly everyone I know and love. And sadly many if not most of the "believers" I know personally in my local area are stupid, arrogant, hateful, bitter, ugly, self-righteous, legalistic morons. And sadly this time of year many of them haven't discovered the wonderful invention of DEODORANT either!

Seriously, I just don't understand why God just allows satan to get away with winning the vast majority of the human race, you would think as more powerful God is to satan He would not allow it to happen. You would think that He could work things around to where at least half or more of the human race makes it into heaven, but no we have to have only .000000001% or less of make it in and all the rest goes to hell that's just lovely!

And speaking about satan, why did God have to create that piece of garbage in the first place? Did God not know ahead of time from eternity past, that satan would rebel and cause all this mess? If satan would have never been created in the first place or was made in such a way that he would never have wanted to rebel than EVIL WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED. And there would have been no bad options for our FREEWILL to choose.

If God is indeed all powerful, all knowing, and all loving why didn't He just create the universe, the world, and all living things without allowing satan or anyone else to rebel and we would have what we will eventually have with the new heavens and the new earth right now with MORE PEOPLE instead of what we are really going to have a new heavens and new earth with probably only a couple thousand, a couple hundred or a couple hundred thousand if we are very very lucky make it in to enjoy it.

With the quality of people that I know who are believers with the exception of people like William Lane Criag, Gary Habermas and bippy123, I'll have very few people who I will want to hang out with in heaven. I mean who else am I going to hang out with there? Fred Phelps? Tammy Faye Baker? Jimmy Swaggert???!!!

I just hope there are other worlds and universes out there where God is doing the same thing such as the one we are on just so we will have more people in heaven because if this is the only universe and world there is then like I said earlier expect only .00000001% or less of humanity to make it in. Either that or I hope God somehow creates more human beings or more something in the news heavens and new earth because if not I will certainly get tired of being around the same hand full of arrogant, bitter, self-righteous, ugly, legalistic well you get the idea.

But that's how I feel, I feel like I can't do anything good or productive and I'm just spinning my wheels because the people I want to see saved won't have anything to do with it and the ones who are I can't stand.

Maybe as I said in my original post I should just go back to being more selfish and more about me basically, be more like the arrogant, bitter, self-righteous believers in my local area and don't even care about the lost or about people in general since most are going to hell anyway and there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it.

There are better things you can do, like making your peace with God and trusting him with your worries. I don't know how can you intercede on behalf of someone when you yourself need to completely surrender to God and especially this worry of yours. Seriously brother, I mean it.

neo-x wrote:

DRDS wrote:I don't know it just seems so hopeless as far as winning anyone I know and love to God. It's like I'm going to lose nearly everyone I know and love. And sadly many if not most of the "believers" I know personally in my local area are stupid, arrogant, hateful, bitter, ugly, self-righteous, legalistic morons. And sadly this time of year many of them haven't discovered the wonderful invention of DEODORANT either!

Seriously, I just don't understand why God just allows satan to get away with winning the vast majority of the human race, you would think as more powerful God is to satan He would not allow it to happen. You would think that He could work things around to where at least half or more of the human race makes it into heaven, but no we have to have only .000000001% or less of make it in and all the rest goes to hell that's just lovely!

And speaking about satan, why did God have to create that piece of garbage in the first place? Did God not know ahead of time from eternity past, that satan would rebel and cause all this mess? If satan would have never been created in the first place or was made in such a way that he would never have wanted to rebel than EVIL WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED. And there would have been no bad options for our FREEWILL to choose.

If God is indeed all powerful, all knowing, and all loving why didn't He just create the universe, the world, and all living things without allowing satan or anyone else to rebel and we would have what we will eventually have with the new heavens and the new earth right now with MORE PEOPLE instead of what we are really going to have a new heavens and new earth with probably only a couple thousand, a couple hundred or a couple hundred thousand if we are very very lucky make it in to enjoy it.

With the quality of people that I know who are believers with the exception of people like William Lane Criag, Gary Habermas and bippy123, I'll have very few people who I will want to hang out with in heaven. I mean who else am I going to hang out with there? Fred Phelps? Tammy Faye Baker? Jimmy Swaggert???!!!

I just hope there are other worlds and universes out there where God is doing the same thing such as the one we are on just so we will have more people in heaven because if this is the only universe and world there is then like I said earlier expect only .00000001% or less of humanity to make it in. Either that or I hope God somehow creates more human beings or more something in the news heavens and new earth because if not I will certainly get tired of being around the same hand full of arrogant, bitter, self-righteous, ugly, legalistic well you get the idea.

But that's how I feel, I feel like I can't do anything good or productive and I'm just spinning my wheels because the people I want to see saved won't have anything to do with it and the ones who are I can't stand.

Maybe as I said in my original post I should just go back to being more selfish and more about me basically, be more like the arrogant, bitter, self-righteous believers in my local area and don't even care about the lost or about people in general since most are going to hell anyway and there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it.

There are better things you can do, like making your peace with God and trusting him with your worries. I don't know how can you intercede on behalf of someone when you yourself need to completely surrender to God and especially this worry of yours. Seriously brother, I mean it.

I agree with Neo.

If I recall correctly DRDS, a lot of your posts seem to go the same way. The best thing you can do is get your own life straightened out.

I wish you the best.

DRDS wrote:I don't know it just seems so hopeless as far as winning anyone I know and love to God. It's like I'm going to lose nearly everyone I know and love. And sadly many if not most of the "believers" I know personally in my local area are stupid, arrogant, hateful, bitter, ugly, self-righteous, legalistic morons. And sadly this time of year many of them haven't discovered the wonderful invention of DEODORANT either!

Seriously, I just don't understand why God just allows satan to get away with winning the vast majority of the human race, you would think as more powerful God is to satan He would not allow it to happen. You would think that He could work things around to where at least half or more of the human race makes it into heaven, but no we have to have only .000000001% or less of make it in and all the rest goes to hell that's just lovely!

And speaking about satan, why did God have to create that piece of garbage in the first place? Did God not know ahead of time from eternity past, that satan would rebel and cause all this mess? If satan would have never been created in the first place or was made in such a way that he would never have wanted to rebel than EVIL WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED. And there would have been no bad options for our FREEWILL to choose.

If God is indeed all powerful, all knowing, and all loving why didn't He just create the universe, the world, and all living things without allowing satan or anyone else to rebel and we would have what we will eventually have with the new heavens and the new earth right now with MORE PEOPLE instead of what we are really going to have a new heavens and new earth with probably only a couple thousand, a couple hundred or a couple hundred thousand if we are very very lucky make it in to enjoy it.

With the quality of people that I know who are believers with the exception of people like William Lane Criag, Gary Habermas and bippy123, I'll have very few people who I will want to hang out with in heaven. I mean who else am I going to hang out with there? Fred Phelps? Tammy Faye Baker? Jimmy Swaggert???!!!

I just hope there are other worlds and universes out there where God is doing the same thing such as the one we are on just so we will have more people in heaven because if this is the only universe and world there is then like I said earlier expect only .00000001% or less of humanity to make it in. Either that or I hope God somehow creates more human beings or more something in the news heavens and new earth because if not I will certainly get tired of being around the same hand full of arrogant, bitter, self-righteous, ugly, legalistic well you get the idea.

But that's how I feel, I feel like I can't do anything good or productive and I'm just spinning my wheels because the people I want to see saved won't have anything to do with it and the ones who are I can't stand.

Maybe as I said in my original post I should just go back to being more selfish and more about me basically, be more like the arrogant, bitter, self-righteous believers in my local area and don't even care about the lost or about people in general since most are going to hell anyway and there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it.

There are no easy answers regarding why God permitted evil but there is an answer. Best way I can say it as others like CS Lewis would answer but I would not be so eloquent. Instead, I'll leave it in a form to ponder: How can good remain good unless the opposite is exposed first? If Good denied the opposite, then how can good remain good to all? Remove chaff before you can grind the wheat. To make gold pure requires turning up the heat to remove the dross. In the future the good will be actualized as living fact and the evil will be removed, justly. So for now, we live in the refining process.

Regarding the area in which you live and the discovery of how this refining process works, you are noticing what Jesus mentioned in the Parable of the Sower in Luke’s and Matthews gospel as true: only 1 out of 4 of respondents are the real deal. The rest… hear but do not hear and see but do not see. They love the flesh, pride of life, the world i.e. darkness more than life itself and life’s author. The bible gives us ample warning on this as we approach the latter days.

The modern western church is a mess. There are 7 types of people that make up the church world mentioned in Revelations chapter 2 and 3. Of those, only two do not have to turn away from anything. One consist of those martyred and the other has a little power from on High, Keep His word, and do not deny the effect of His name in their lives. The others, well… read for yourself.

By and large, I find many folks living accord the dictates of Ephesus, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, and Laodicea attending the modern church. From this I discovered those in Smyrna do exist by hearing testimony of their persecutions and death. So I searched for the one mentioned as Philadelphian church and could not find it. Then one day, it was made clear to me that these folks are not in an established organized church at all but rather, not welcomed in it. I found a few, on the outside of the organizations and minister with these folks on the Reservations and even in the city where I live. So, though I go to a established church, it is all messed up with pulpit, member, and control politics just as so many other places are.

In the modern church world, people argue a lot over the existence of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, or talk a lot about them but never use them. Some fight over speaking in tongues of angels by the tongues of men which have not ceased. Some attending are Ephesus, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, and Laodicea in their nature. What we often discover are ministers more concerned with building their personal kingdoms enslaved to denominational presuppositions and pride and confusing this all as proof of their love of God, love for the church, and God's call on their lives. They hear but do not hear and see but do not see. In this mix, I met some of the real deal folks and many members on this forum are the real deal but do not realize it yet and so are you DRDS.

So how do we pray for folks, well begin, keep praying, and don’t worry about seeing results. The idea of a prayer language is much maligned but it does exist. If one can’t handle that according to their bias then seek the Holy Spirit gifts of Wisdom and Knowledge. Ask to be empowered by the Lord in this. This is called being empowered from power from on High by the Holy Spirit. DL Moody and RA Torrey, Wesley, and others are not wrong on this matter. We have Christians, instead, going forth without empowerment to witness, to pray. We have folks going forth in the power of man made programs, methods, rules, blessings, all approved by simply passing written test and human driven criteria: the results are obvious. All the gifts of the Holy Spirit are His and he loans to those who seek them. He instructs us personally in their use. We learn of him. This learning builds our faith/confidence in the Lord, and we learn what it means to surrender so He alone is glorified.

These gifts have not ceased but people have ceased being empowered because of doctrines of men and abuse, and smugness. If these have ceased, then so has wisdom. If not sought, then God’s wisdom is neglected and what do you have – well a lot of folks living as Ephesus, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, and Laodicea do. To tell you the truth, I am fed up with churchanity. So I seek in prayer to be led to those who reside as the two other church types mentioned in Revelation’s Book who are commended. Coupled that with Jesus injunction to be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass and stand before Him. We are approaching the last of the last days. Perilous times are coming upon us no longer at a slow sporadic creep but with an steady drumbeat.

So I started, as the Lord directs me, to locate and train folks as fed up as I am to move ahead alongside his Him, to form bible study, home groups, or prayer groups and live a living faith midst all life’s woes, toils, traumas, pain, and yes the good times, healings, miracles, the setting free from personal strongholds and bondages too.

You see, this world is in a process where the bad is being shaken so at the appointed time the Good comes full swing so there is bad no more: How can good remain good unless the opposite is exposed first? If Good denied the opposite, then how can good remain good to all? Remove chaff before you can grind the wheat. To make gold pure requires turning up the heat to remove the dross. In the future the good will be actualized as living fact and the evil will be removed, justly. So for now, we live in the refining process. We are part of God's light combating the darkness of the world's system. Sometimes, exposing it cost us our lives or be ridiculed. Those God chooses to use the most must endure the hardship of ridicule, rejection, abandonment, detachment, etc so they are not controlled by the world. So, what has you life taught you so far?

Now listen to yourself DRDS, what do you hear yourself saying? Why are you concerned? Isn’t that evidence of the love of God in you weeping over the stupidity of people? What Is Jesus teaching you – maybe something as simple as how the heart of God feels? However, unlike Jesus, we all have issues, strongholds, in life that hinder us and cause us to draw away. So is it any wonder Jesus prayed for the Peter the way he did? How about you? So I pray likewise that Jesus prays over you as will several other folks will too. When we come to the end of ourselves, He then resurrects us out of our own darkest night. Painful yes, but joy comes with the dawning of rays of a new day.

Blessings...


Rev 7:9-10, After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." NASB

The great multitude no one can number in context refers to people, so take courage.
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Thank you B.W. at least you are helpful and actually care not only about me but about the souls of others. As for some of the others on here, they appear to be a bunch of Fred Phelps groupies who want to see everyone in hell and they want heaven to be void of as many people as possible so they can have it all for themselves like a bunch of greedy Texas oil billionaires. And...... it's my 600th post, happy 600th post for me! (I guess it feels GREAT to be selfish! *doesn't it neo?)

DRDS wrote:Thank you B.W. at least you are helpful and actually care not only about me but about the souls of others. As for some of the others on here, they appear to be a bunch of Fred Phelps groupies who want to see everyone in hell and they want heaven to be void of as many people as possible so they can have it all for themselves like a bunch of greedy Texas oil billionaires. And...... it's my 600th post, happy 600th post for me! (I guess it feels GREAT to be selfish! *doesn't it neo?)

Sometimes the best advice is the words we don't want to hear. Sometimes it can be difficult listening to others who don't pussyfoot around the truth, and just tell you like it is.

I hope you get help DRDS, or you may just worry yourself to death.

You need to learn to take constructive criticism, or you'll never mature.

Ever think that maybe the problem isn't with everyone around you? Maybe you're doing something wrong?

And please don't mistake my being blunt and to the point, with a lack of compassion for you. I see some of my younger self in you DRDS.
I wish you the best, but only you can decide to change.

Well from what I've seen anymore it just doesn't pay to be nice and helpful anymore. The world is ending and most of the human race is going to hell and there is nothing I can do about it. I"m going to lose most of my family and loved ones to satan and heaven for me will probably be a boring, dull, tasteless,bitter, full of despair kind of experience. I'm going to be surrounded by a small group of hateful, dull, boring amish people who hate me and each other and everything and with the luck I have God will probably have the same personality as well. I'm sure it's still slightly better than hell, but if I had my druthers I would ask God to just annihilate me for good and just be dead like in a atheist type of universe where you just go to a state of nonexistence and stay like that forever.

DRDS wrote:Well from what I've seen anymore it just doesn't pay to be nice and helpful anymore. The world is ending and most of the human race is going to hell and there is nothing I can do about it. I"m going to lose most of my family and loved ones to satan and heaven for me will probably be a boring, dull, tasteless,bitter, full of despair kind of experience. I'm going to be surrounded by a small group of hateful, dull, boring amish people who hate me and each other and everything and with the luck I have God will probably have the same personality as well. I'm sure it's still slightly better than hell, but if I had my druthers I would ask God to just annihilate me for good and just be dead like in a atheist type of universe where you just go to a state of nonexistence and stay like that forever.

DRDS,

I'm going to give you some simple advice. Advice that I gave you before. Make time every day, maybe 15-30 minutes, to pray and read the bible. You need to be encouraged by His written word. And if you haven't stopped already, stop reading into all the negative things like conspiracy theories and the like.

You need to work on your relationship with God. And you do that by reading the bible and praying. Once your vertical relationship(between you and God) gets better, your horizontal relationships (between you and other people) will improve.

It's really simple advice. But only you can choose to do it.

Look, I've prayed zillions of times and I've read the bible quite a bit as well. I know what the bible narrative is all about.There are just many details that I don't fully understand nor really like that much (and let's face none of you or anyone else fully understand the bible either).

I still believe it anyway, but it's more of a chore these days than it is a blessing. I'm just frustrated with life, with people, with myself and with God in general. I had big plans for my life and I want so bad to see people I know and love saved but as usual nothing that I try and put my effort towards comes to pass.

I guess I don't have that certain "something" or certain "mojo" that God likes. I guess He must only see it in people like Joel Osteen, Jan Crouch, or some of these dull boring Amish people living in the middle of nowhere because He certainly does not see it in me.

DRDS wrote:Look, I've prayed zillions of times and I've read the bible quite a bit as well. I know what the bible narrative is all about.There are just many details that I don't fully understand nor really like that much (and let's face none of you or anyone else fully understand the bible either).

I still believe it anyway, but it's more of a chore these days than it is a blessing. I'm just frustrated with life, with people, with myself and with God in general. I had big plans for my life and I want so bad to see people I know and love saved but as usual nothing that I try and put my effort towards comes to pass.

I guess I don't have that certain "something" or certain "mojo" that God likes. I guess He must only see it in people like Joel Osteen, Jan Crouch, or some of these dull boring Amish people living in the middle of nowhere because He certainly does not see it in me.

So what are you going to do?You kinda kinda sound like a worn down warrior for Christ.I think you need rest to spend time with the Lord to renew your strength.I don't know what else to say but I do hope you'll find strength again from the Lord.it also sounds like the enemy is condemning you making you feel worthless,but you are'nt with Christ.You can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Thank you.