Evidence for God from Science

Thought this would be handy to reference: https://answersingenesis.org/days-of-creation/ as it gives AIG's basic positions on their Young Earth (YEC) views, why they see the Creation days as literal ones and why.

One thing I never get is how they emphasize that death before the fall of man (meaning, of course, animal deaths) is bad. If it is BAD, then God's entire present design for the animal kingdom is bad. But not ONCE in Scripture do we see animal deaths portrayed as being bad or something to mourn. In fact, God Himself sets up a sacrificial system BASED upon and which requires very brutal (if quick) animal deaths in a systematic way. And this PLEASES God. But somehow animal deaths are bad? And did the pre-Fall animals SIN? Or were they made to suffer for Adam and Eve's sin? I just don't get it. Also, on some level, it's equating the importance of animal lives with those of people. Ever see a Scripture reference to take care of the ailing, suffering or dying animals in the bush? In FACT, the animal kingdom is designed around the necessity for predator/prey relationships. But, again, that was somehow BAD? Were the animals just eating some kind of Alpo Manna before The Fall. But I digress.

Although as a gap theorist I tend to agree the days of creation were regular days I disagree with a young earth and why and how they came up with it and i disagree with their point about death before adam,however i do believe they are right about it if you accept uniformitarianism which they believe and teach when I believe based on 2nd Peter 3:4-5 we should not accept. the world has not went on continuously like we are taught in these last days and this has been overlooked I believe based n what it saysand so this makes young earth creationists wrong about death before Adam and it is the bible that makes them wrong,not me.
I also am quite upset with thembecause of the made up lies and things they have said about the gap theory.It is one thing to disagree with another creation interpretation and as long as you are trying to be biblical and honest there is nothing wrong with it but if you are just making up things that are not true in order to defend your interpretation then it is wrong.It is not good to slander good brothers in Christ you disagree with if ypu are going to make a case for why it is wrong it should be truthful and not just made up stuff that are either lies or just made up stuff in order to lead people away from it.
There is nothing wrong if you are truthfully showing why others are wrong even if the truth can still hurt,it is still better than slander and there is a difference.

I have watched Ken Ham debate Hugh Ross before and he is more rude than truthful and he pleas from authority rather than the word of God. he is like you are heretical if you don't accept a young earth and argues from this position expecting people to just agree with him because most already believe it.

I think death in and of itself is bad.
Even with animals, including the physical pain and mental suffering that can happen.

However, as a part of an entire system and network of dependencies, for example the ecosystem that is so fascinating and I believe good overall. When put into perspective of the overall system, the entire world and universe wherein their is much beauty, comedy and joy -- taken collectively as a total system such is good and even very good. Albeit, not perfect.

Furthermore, Christianity doesn't start and end with this world.
Rather this world is seen as having a purpose as a step into the next.

One must first know the end purpose, before they can declare whether death is bad in the bigger picture.
And if death is the end and there is nothing more, then that does seem bad (to others it might be welcomed if they lived a wicked life).
If we view death more like waking up from a dream, then what is so bad about waking up from a dream?

The only things bad about death then become that we don't like the unknown.
We don't like being unable to explore and find out for sure (unless we end our life ).
We don't like the lack of control.

So an argument from physical death, as a bad thing within the total scheme of things, seems to me an argument from ignorance.
How that all applies to AiG, well... err... I got a little side-tracked into the death issue itself.

Kurieuo, the death of unsaved humans is obviously VERY bad. But what I'm speaking to is the death of ANIMALS. This is a YEC buggaboo - ANY death before The Fall is bad, in their eyes. But GOD designed the animal kingdom and its interdependencies and predator/prey relationships. Not once does He show that He is upset over the death of animals. And then in the OT, He even REQUIRES and DESIRES the sacrificial deaths of animals - which was no pleasant thing to watch, much less to experience. But it makes no sense that God EVER would orchestrate animal deaths, require them, etc., not be upset about them, see the consumption of animal flesh as perfectly acceptable IF this were in any way BAD. That doesn't add up. Note that God IS upset about the same things being done to humans - ANY human. The fact is, God views human deaths (those made in His Image) far differently than He does those of animals. The very reasons carnivores eat the flesh of their prey is because that is precisely how God designed them. Is something God designed EVER bad? If so, HOW so?

Philip, I understand what you're saying.
Do understand what I am saying.

Picture a world where there is only death, even let's say only animal death.
Animals pop into existence from nowhere, and the only reason for their coming into existence is to be ripped and torn apart.
A new one pops into existence and is immediately shredded.
Another pops into existence and has its head bitten off.
Another gets caught in a trap and bleeds to death in agony.
Keep going with the endless slaughter.

Is there is no part of you that feels such is wrong?
Of course there is! Otherwise you're as cold as ice.
Or perhaps you're just sadistic to say there'd be nothing wrong with a world dedicated to only senseless death.
So if there was just a world of death, understand that this is what I mean by "death in and of itself is bad."
HOWEVER, death needs to be weighed in the fuller design and purpose of things.

Back in the real world, our world, things are very different.
Death has a reason within immediate the design of the world that has been setup.
It can even be seen in some positive light. Death brings meaning to one's lived life. Death places value upon life. Death created boundaries around how much power some evil person can wield over us to persecute and torture us. Indeed, physical death itself places limits over evil where longer human lives apparently increase the amount of evil (according to Genesis 6).

Furthermore, if this world is but a stepping stone into another, then death really isn't that bad (except the dying perhaps).
As for animals, the reason they have life isn't to die -- but to live. They display much beauty and goodness of design while they're alive.
Death is just an inevitable final part of life's design in our world.

BUT, there is a reason why Scripture says the last enemy to conquer is death. (1 Cor 15:26)
Animal death aside, what is bad about human death isn't necessarily physical death, but that such foundationally represents our separation from God. It is the final barrier between us and God -- between our life without and eternal life with Christ and God.

As for animal death, one needs to take into considering the fuller design. There is life, there is beauty, there is a designed purpose to death.
I mean even human death within the fuller design of things, isn't necessarily bad. It a necessity to inheriting what is imperishable.

All that said, I still contend that a world of death, without any reason or purpose, would be bad.
This death and dying is a bad thing, but then it has to be placed within the fuller context of where it is found.

Sorry, Kurieuo, but while I most certainly think we should treat animals with great respect, I view them VERY differently than humans. Animal carnage is natural and necessary. They were created for our benefit and stewardship. And I just don't see that this issue of The Fall suggests there was NO death of any kind, pre-Fall. I fail to see animal death as wrong or in any way bad.

Do you view animals as purely mechanical creatures, like say insects or robots?

With the hypothetical question I asked re: world setup with only senseless animal death, I am guessing your response would be neutral?
That is, nothing good or bad about such a world?

Also, being PC I obviously accept death was around long before sin.
That is irrelevant to the issue of death itself though.

I've been reading through the link you posted and towards the bottom of the page they talk about Augustine and how old earth creationists use him to justify believing in an old earth but they do not mention that Augustine believed and made it clear that the first day in Genesis started with verse 3,not verse 1 like YEC's believe.
But further reading they talk about uniformitarianism and catastrophism and act like they do not teach uniformitarianism when they do.YEC's teach uniformitarianism yet deny it because they believe all things have gone on continually since Genesis 1:1.

Philip wrote:But GOD designed the animal kingdom and its interdependencies and predator/prey relationships.

That is not his original design but is one of the effects of sin. All animals were originally vegetarians.

And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.
(Genesis 1:29-30 ESV)

That will again be true when Christ returns and sets up his kingdom on earth.

The wolf and the lamb shall graze together;
the lion shall eat straw like the ox,
and dust shall be the serpent's food.
They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain,”
says the LORD.
(Isaiah 65:25 ESV)

The fact is, God views human deaths (those made in His Image) far differently than He does those of animals.

He views them differently because humans are made in his image while animals aren't but that doesn't mean he considers animal deaths to be good.

The very reasons carnivores eat the flesh of their prey is because that is precisely how God designed them. Is something God designed EVER bad? If so, HOW so?

The only reason any animals are carnivores is that human sin has upset the system that God designed.

Do you view animals as purely mechanical creatures, like say insects or robots?

Kurieuo, certainly animals are more intelligent than insects. They do feel pain, they suffer. But they function precisely as God DESIGNED them to. Predators cannot live without killing - they were designed to live by killing. Saying this is bad is like saying it's bad that volcanoes occasionally erupt. I don't assign human attributes or judgments to animals. God doesn't view the taking of animal life like that of humans - that's obvious. We are to be good stewards of animals, try to protect them as a species, treat those in our care humanely. But to say the bloodshed of animals is bad is to also say that God designed them to do something that is evil - for predators to kill their prey. In some ways, animals are very much like insects. They are amoral beings - they don't sin, they just function per how they were designed to. How could that EVER be bad? And people are exceptionally inconsistent as to how they view the animal world. They'll think nothing of squashing a cockroach they find in the house, bait a hook with a worm, but the more beautiful, doe-eyed animals kill are, the more people freak out - usually the same ones eating at McDonald's while wearing leather belts and shoes. Bottom line: GOD made the violent world of carnivores and their prey - so, how could that EVER be bad?

Theophilus: The only reason any animals are carnivores is that human sin has upset the system that GOD designed.

Obviously, you have read that into the text - this is never specifically stated. Also, you are in total denial - you are connecting man's sin to something God did (in how He designed the predator/prey world). As God has so DESIGNED this animal world and its functions, it CANNOT be considered bad. As GOD ordained and was PLEASED by the slitting of lambs and goats throats, subsequently burned upon His altars - again, how can the killing of animals be bad? Why would the God who supposedly views this animal carnage as being bad also be the very One responsible for ALL of it, as that is precisely HOW HE designed it. And He designed it with key purposes - whether for the survival of the animal kingdom or in His instructions to those sacrificing upon His altars - to WHAT? Clearly, to HONOR the Lord!

Not be bring Genesis 9 into this, but:

Gen 9:3
“Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant.

While one can view this as a concession on God's part, it is clear that God made it permissible for Man to eat Meat and NOWHERE did Christ say otherwise.

As for all animals being herbivores, well...
Genesis does indeed seem to state that all animals were given green plant as food BUT a few things need to addressed:
1) Nowhere in Genesis does it imply that there was NO DEATH.
2) In Genesis 3:22, it is stated that Adam and Eve are banished so they are not able to eat of the tree that gives eternal life, implying that their immortality is/was/would be linked to them eating from the Tree of life and NOT that they were created immortal.
3) No where is there mention of animals being immortal.

There were dinosaurs living in the former world and so we know there was death in the former world that perished until God created this world but what happened in the former world has no bearing on this world. God simply wiped the slate clean when he created this world.And so death did come into this world when Adam and Eve sinned.

Thanks Philip.

I was having a good day until I started watching the video in your link. After listening to about half of it, I got an overwhelming urge to go kick my dog.

Thanks Philip. You ruined my day!

Rick: Thanks Philip.

I was having a good day until I started watching the video in your link. After listening to about half of it, I got an overwhelming urge to go kick my dog.

Thanks Philip. You ruined my day!

WHAT video in WHAT link? Not sure what you are referencing?

Philip wrote:

Rick: Thanks Philip.

I was having a good day until I started watching the video in your link. After listening to about half of it, I got an overwhelming urge to go kick my dog.

Thanks Philip. You ruined my day!

WHAT video in WHAT link? Not sure what you are referencing?

When I click on your AIG link in the OP on my iPhone, there's a video at the top of the page entitled, "Millions of Years Undermines Every Major Doctrine of the Bible".