Evidence for God from Science

I get the feeling this passage is saying something that I'm missing:

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 “For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

I *think* this passage is trying to say there's a sort of natural order in our respect for the act of creation, on the one hand giving unto parents what is their due and giving unto God what is His, but the only thing I can come up with is distinguishing the physical (parents) from the spiritual (God) and I'm not sure what that would really look like in practice.

Sorry if this is just me being a bit obtuse.

plouiswork wrote:I get the feeling this passage is saying something that I'm missing:

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 “For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

I *think* this passage is trying to say there's a sort of natural order in our respect for the act of creation, on the one hand giving unto parents what is their due and giving unto God what is His, but the only thing I can come up with is distinguishing the physical (parents) from the spiritual (God) and I'm not sure what that would really look like in practice.

Sorry if this is just me being a bit obtuse.

Jesus was correcting them about their traditions of men that in the end made children of no help to their parents.These are 14 things the Pharisees were known for.
1.Many hand washings.
2.Faultfinding.
3.Holding on to traditions of men instead of God's word.
4.Ceremonial washing of body.
5.Ceremonial washing of cups,pots,vessels,and couches.
6.Demanding all men to follow their own outward religion.
7.Insisting on outward cleansing but void of inward cleansing.
8.Honoring God with lip service,not with the heart.
9.Carrying on vain worship.
10.Rejecting and casting aside God's laws and teaching man's.
11.Substituting man's religion for that of God.
12.Rejecting and casting aside Moses while claiming to follow him.
13.Using religion to free anyone from parental responsibility.
14.Using religion as a means of personal gain.

I think if I told my family I loved God over them, it may come off as slightly insensitive. Especially to me sister, who is not a believer but whom I still love anyway. But I think, according to the passage I quoted below, that God doesn't want half-hearted devotion to Him, but absolute devotion. Meaning that you can't hold anybody as a peer to God in terms of your respect, not even your wife or husband (I hope my future wife isn't too jealous of that...)

Matthew 10:34-37
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Also, the "sword" metaphor has been misunderstood by many people in the past. Swords are a tool used for cutting. In this case, the sword cleaves a family apart, dividing it like severing a rope holding a moored boat to a dock. Again, it sounds harsh, but as George Washington once said, " It is better to be alone than in bad company. " I still love my sister, and hope she can come back to the light one day, but I will still hold my connection to God over my connection to her.

Also, I'm trying to overcome my fear of posting. We have a lot of smart cookies here, and I feel pretty dim beside them sometimes. As the old saying goes, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
Abraham Lincoln.

But I'll improve

Hortador,

If you're a little fearful of posting, just post after I post. That's a guarantee that you'll sound like a genius!

The division that Christ would/will bring is not really as controversial as many WANT to make it out to be.
Think about it.
What does Christ ask of Us ( or of His followers in 1st century Palestine) that was immoral or wrong? Nothing.
It is clear however that religion can be a dividing force and it is clear that the belief in Christ was and is one too.
To love Christ is to love all that is good, all that is right, to love Christ is to love he that creates and sustains all and one should actually ask why NOT love Christ above all?

One Christ said that those that love family above Him are not worthy of Him what He is saying is this:
Those that do NOT love righteousness, those that do not love creation, those that do not love what LOVE is, are not worthy of Him ( in other words not worthy of His gift of eternal grace and salvation).

Yes it is controversial and yes it is even worded a bit harshly ( Matthew was writing to a Jewish audience that was used to being spoken to in such a way by the way) BUT it is also true.

In short when those we love and care about try to keep us from all that is love and good and righteous then they deserve to be defied.

Hortator wrote:I think if I told my family I loved God over them, it may come off as slightly insensitive. Especially to me sister, who is not a believer but whom I still love anyway. But I think, according to the passage I quoted below, that God doesn't want half-hearted devotion to Him, but absolute devotion. Meaning that you can't hold anybody as a peer to God in terms of your respect, not even your wife or husband (I hope my future wife isn't too jealous of that...)

Matthew 10:34-37
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Also, the "sword" metaphor has been misunderstood by many people in the past. Swords are a tool used for cutting. In this case, the sword cleaves a family apart, dividing it like severing a rope holding a moored boat to a dock. Again, it sounds harsh, but as George Washington once said, " It is better to be alone than in bad company. " I still love my sister, and hope she can come back to the light one day, but I will still hold my connection to God over my connection to her.

Also, I'm trying to overcome my fear of posting. We have a lot of smart cookies here, and I feel pretty dim beside them sometimes. As the old saying goes, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
Abraham Lincoln.

But I'll improve

I really liked this post.
Don't be shy Hortator
If we believe that God is love and everything that stems from love, humility, compassion , empathy, patience and joy then it only stands to reason that we love and worship a God that foreshadows our love for even family.
When we understand that He is the source of every principle of love , then the love of family is cherished but not cherished above the giver of love.
We love because He first loved us.
Sometime love convicts, it hurts and divides.
As long as it is done with a heart in the right place and eyes fixed to Christ then He can use division and any family conflict to draw us togther.
Don't push it.
Be patience, love abundantly, and trust fervently!

Hortator wrote:Also, the "sword" metaphor has been misunderstood by many people in the past. Swords are a tool used for cutting. In this case, the sword cleaves a family apart, dividing it like severing a rope holding a moored boat to a dock. Again, it sounds harsh, but as George Washington once said, " It is better to be alone than in bad company. " I still love my sister, and hope she can come back to the light one day, but I will still hold my connection to God over my connection to her.

Yeah, this makes a lot of sense to me. I can admit to being too harsh with my parents for things they had no control over, but I think if we're honest about where it's coming from harshness towards family can be warranted.

My parents view my faith as being brainwashed, they associate any sort of religion or faith as a cult. I love them dearly, always wil but I had to make a choice, God, or my parents. It hurt, still does but God is and always will be, the most important person in my life.

Storyteller wrote:My parents view my faith as being brainwashed, they associate any sort of religion or faith as a cult. I love them dearly, always wil but I had to make a choice, God, or my parents. It hurt, still does but God is and always will be, the most important person in my life.

For some it is ( a cult) and in some cases it truly is.
It is hard for a skeptic to grasp what it is to be touched by God even though they too have been ( they may simply not realize it or even care in the case of some). I say this because I believe that everyone IS touched by God and not just once or twice but regularly.
I never understood it myself until I was able to hear Christ and feel Him and then I realized that He had ALWAYS been there.
I remember as a skeptic-believer ( that is one that believes in God but has some serious issues with God as we THINK He is) how I always asked God from some proof, some evidence, how I would say that if only God would show me or speak to me or anything !
Of course it was always on my terms and what I expected to hear or see was what I thought I should be hearing or seeing or experiencing.
When he did come to me it was, of course, on HIS terms (rightly so) and when He KNEW I was ready to actually listen to Him.

It is hard for unbelievers and skeptics to grasp this.

Storyteller wrote:My parents view my faith as being brainwashed, they associate any sort of religion or faith as a cult. I love them dearly, always wil but I had to make a choice, God, or my parents. It hurt, still does but God is and always will be, the most important person in my life.

Geez, I'm really sorry to hear that
I hope in time you guys will work through it.

Storyteller wrote:My parents view my faith as being brainwashed, they associate any sort of religion or faith as a cult. I love them dearly, always wil but I had to make a choice, God, or my parents. It hurt, still does but God is and always will be, the most important person in my life.

Annette, just curious. Do you have any siblings? And what they think?
My parents also wondered why I read Bible, such an old book, or discuss faith with believers (something i cannot do in their mind) or spend time here on this forum.
Raised us unbelievers, me, my one brother are now believers. And my other brother is I think undecided but has believing wife.

Thanks mel Me too, I keep them in my prayers and hope that one day they will at least understand my faith even if they cannot accept it.

Hana, I have an older brother and sister, who are a little more open to it but sadly I have no contact with my side of the family for various reasons although I remain hopeful that we may re-establish a relationship.

Well, your Christian brothers and sisters are your family.

Indeed they are and I am blessed because of it.

Everyone on here has helped me heal.