Evidence for God from Science

In Revelation 13:16-18, it talks about the mark of the beast. There are heaps of strange and wonderful interpretations of what this will be, when it will (or did ) happen, yet all seem to completely skip the specifics of what the verse says. Here is what the text says:

16 And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

I have highlighted in bold what I feel are the key words/terms in this prophecy.

When we look at the evolution of money, we see it evolving from gold and silver, to lesser metals, and then to paper, plastic and now, payments all over the world are being made by contact-less cards, Apple Watch (and other smart watches), Barclays bank in the UK offer people a chipped wrist band for payments, and also a micro-chipped sticker that can be stuck on anything to pay with. Schools in the UK and people in countries like Sweden are using finger print and palm recognition as forms of payment too. So, the questions is...where are all these changes in world banking leading to? What is the next evolution in money?

This is where I believe we come to the mircochip, in particular a chip implanted in the back of your hand, which will eventually be used for buying and selling. When one looks at it on a purely practical/convenience level, you can see why this will eventually happen. For governments it costs less to have digital money than to print cash, it will make the system run more efficiently, as there will be no need to move cash around, crime that is dependent on physical money will be minimized, and for the common man, no more having to carry your wallet, worry about losing it, or having it stolen, etc, etc. That's not to say there will be no issues with this kinds of technology, but I think the system will refine this until it's as good as it can be.

So, when will this happen? That's anyone's guess, but it could be a lot sooner than people would like to believe. Everyday we see these changes happening, and cash slowly being phased out. When it does come, like the prophecy say, no man will be able to buy or sell without it. So where will we get our food, clothes, shelter, etc?

Most people will end up taking the mark, because they don't really believe God can provide these things outside of working for money, but Jesus said it very clearly, God can and will provide us with clothes and food, as he does the flowers and birds, if we seek to build his Kingdom first. (Matthew 6:25-34). Do we believe this? Are we preparing ourselves spiritually for this time? When it comes, we will lose everything, homes, lands, possessions, most likely family and friends who take the mark...are we ready for that?

There was a missionary who said, ''He is no fool who give up what he cannot keep in order to gain what he cannot lose''. If we reject the mark, we will lose everything, but we'll lose it all when we die too. Why not give it all up for Jesus right now, and live as he and his disciples did, by faith in God and not in money (Matthew 6:24 and Luke 14:33)?

Revelations also says that the saints, those Christians that endure will receive God's mark on their foreheads. We understand this to be a spiritual mark, is it not possible the the mark of the beast is more spiritually speaking?

Context is crucial in interpretation of any text BUT even more so apocalyptic texts.
We need to take into account who it was being written to ( the 1st century Christians under Roman dominion) and when ( after the fall of Jerusalem and during the persecution).

The whole text is:

Revelation 13New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Beast from the Sea
13 And the dragon stood on the sand of the [a]seashore.

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking [c]arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who [d]dwell in heaven.

7 It was also given to him to make war with the [e]saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been [f]written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone [g]is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the [h]perseverance and the faith of the saints.

The Beast from the Earth
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast [j]in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform [k]in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even [l]speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, [m]to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is [n]six hundred and sixty-six

It is typical jewish apocalyptic writing ( like Daniel).
It is full of imagery and metaphor and so forth, not to be taken literally of course.

The small verse you quoted is part of this larger context:

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast [j]in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform [k]in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even [l]speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, [m]to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is [n]six hundred and sixty-six.

The mark that all will have on their right hand is either the name or the number of the beast, the same beast that, as stated earlier in the verses, Has 2 horns like a lamb and speaks like a dragon ( which means he looks like Christ but speaks like Satan, metaphorically speaking).
He, this beast, also causes people to follow him because he does great signs.

In short, these passages are actually referring to an individual and not to a "thing" like money ( though I am sure money is used as a tool of Satan).
The name and number as such MUST reference an individual somehow.
The mark being on the right hand and forehead are symbolic for deeds ( right hand) and thoughts (forehead).

melanie wrote:Revelations also says that the saints, those Christians that endure will receive God's mark on their foreheads. We understand this to be a spiritual mark, is it not possible the the mark of the beast is more spiritually speaking?

Hi Melanie, yes there are references in both new and old testament that God marks his followers, and so one could assume that the mark of the beast is also literal. However, the verse clearly says that no one who does not have this mark will not be able to buy and sell. I find it difficult to understand how a shopkeep for example would be able to delineate between someone who spiritually has the mark and thus can buy and someone who spiritually doesn't have the mark, and thus is refused sale. We all currently buy and sell, so do we have the mark?

Out of curiosity, what do you think about the progression towards a cashless society and the evolution of money towards microchip implants?

Hi Paul,

I agree context is crucial, and this Revelation was written two thousand years ago. However, do you think it's message is just limited to the people of that time? If not, how do you discern which parts are relevant just for them, and which parts are relevant for us?

The similarities with Daniel are extraordinary, and there is a lot of cohesion with them both. There is in fact a very clear specific time-frames that are given in both books, which (presuming they were just for the past) would mean the rebuilding of them temple would have happened, the great tribulation would have happened, the mark of the beast would have happened, and Jesus would have returned.

You said:
''The mark that all will have on their right hand is either the name or the number of the beast,''

The prophecy does say people will not be able to buy or sell except they have the name or number of the beast, but it doesn't say the mark is just these either one of these. Look at the text you quoted and you'll see this.
''no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.'' The mark in the hand or forehead is very much a mode of payment quite aside from having the name or number of the beast.

I think the Anti-Christ and the false prophet will seek to imitate Christ, but they are a counterfeit. Their signs will be lying signs, their authority not from God, their mark not a spiritual one (like God does for us), but a physical one.

I agree these passages refer to a person (the Anti-Christ), but they also refer to something which the bible says, no one will be able to buy or sell without, and it will be in the hand or the forehead, something this world has never seen, yet we are making happen before people's eyes.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the evolution of money too, and the movements towards a cashless society? Out of interest, if in a few years time, the only option of buying and selling you had was a microchip or some other device in your right hand, would you use it, or would you still view the prophecy as just symbolism?

Rain, you can't take a verse and decide what part is literal and what part is metaphpore or allegory.
IF the part about people only being able to buy or sell is literal then, in the same verse and context, that part about the sign being the name or the number is also literal, in other words only those that have the name or number of the beast on their flesh.
EX: is the name was Bob and the number was 333, then only those with the name bob or number 333 marked on them would be able to buy and sell.

That doesn't lend itself to your view that it could be some "chip implant" or thing of that nature that allows people to but or sell by scanning.
NOT unless that chip has the name or number of the best.

This more than likely may have meant that only those with the currency that had on it the image of the best ( some believed it meant Nero or another roman emperor OR perhaps an ally of them) could buy and sell.

The mark of the beast was spoken against in these key passages - Amos 5:26, Matthew 5:29-30, Acts 7:43-45, Rev 13:16-18.

A physical thing on hand or forehead used for buying and selling. Probably electronic tattoos.
And it will also supposedly store all your memories, the things you see, and finances onto a big computer.
Then when you are about to die, your consciousness and memories can be transferred into a cyborg body.
Very clever lies, the physicals seeming spiritual.
The cyborgs really just being computer a.i. made to sound and act like the dead person, to fool those who are still alive.

PaulSacramento wrote:Rain, you can't take a verse and decide what part is literal and what part is metaphpore or allegory.
IF the part about people only being able to buy or sell is literal then, in the same verse and context, that part about the sign being the name or the number is also literal, in other words only those that have the name or number of the beast on their flesh.
EX: is the name was Bob and the number was 333, then only those with the name bob or number 333 marked on them would be able to buy and sell.

That doesn't lend itself to your view that it could be some "chip implant" or thing of that nature that allows people to but or sell by scanning.
NOT unless that chip has the name or number of the best.

This more than likely may have meant that only those with the currency that had on it the image of the best ( some believed it meant Nero or another roman emperor OR perhaps an ally of them) could buy and sell.

Hi Paul,

There is a difference. The verse clearly states that there will be a mark in the right hand or forehead, without which no man can buy or sell. Similarly it says no man can buy or sell unless they have the name or number of the beast too, however, it's not so clear as to what the name or number of the beast is, where it is located etc. It's quite plausible they will all be rolled up into the one mark in the hand, or perhaps it will be something different. In any case, a time is coming when people of true faith in God will not be able to buy and sell anymore.

I have heard the Nero or some other Emperor theory before, yet that was not ALL people. It's a convenient theory for people to want to believe, because then they don't have to face the possibility of them being here for the mark of the beast, and what will be they're response to it.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts about the changes in world banking, and the clear movement towards a cashless society. Also, if in a few years time a microchip or some other implant on your hand or forehead comes in for buying and selling (and there is no other choice than that), would you take it? Or would you still consider the prophecy to be metaphorical?

rain wrote:

melanie wrote:Revelations also says that the saints, those Christians that endure will receive God's mark on their foreheads. We understand this to be a spiritual mark, is it not possible the the mark of the beast is more spiritually speaking?

Hi Melanie, yes there are references in both new and old testament that God marks his followers, and so one could assume that the mark of the beast is also literal. However, the verse clearly says that no one who does not have this mark will not be able to buy and sell. I find it difficult to understand how a shopkeep for example would be able to delineate between someone who spiritually has the mark and thus can buy and someone who spiritually doesn't have the mark, and thus is refused sale. We all currently buy and sell, so do we have the mark?

Out of curiosity, what do you think about the progression towards a cashless society and the evolution of money towards microchip implants?

I definately get what your saying rain.
Absolutely there is a progression to a cashless society, it seems almost unavoidable that it will progress to such.
I read just a couple days ago that for those on social security payments it has been proposed that they will be paid via a cashless card to ensure money isn't being spent towards alcohol ect and only the essentials. It's sometime away before they implement it but the writing is on the wall, at some stage it will happen. Not just for people on benefits but across the board. Technology is only moving forward and I rarely use cash, I use a card with a microchip that I wave infront of a device.
I grew up watching the left behind series and I thought for a long time that the chip was the mark of the beast. I'm not saying that it's not or that it's not related to it but I'm no longer so sure.
The forehead is symbolic for our thoughts and hand for actions so it can also be assumed it may be a spiritual mark symbolic of our thoughts and deeds.
Receiving the mark is synonymous with worshipping the beast, if people are forced to get chip implants to have access to their money then I question whether this equates to knowingly worshipping the anti Christ.
I also question it because Satan is a mastermind of deception. It's the name of his game. But yet the Christian community and also non christians are quite aware of the chip implant and/or physical mark, being the mark of the beast. There have been quite a few movies depicting such.
Maybe it's not so black and white.
I just try to keep an open mind.

I think it's both. Literal, and literal in it's symbolism. I think there will be a literal physical mark that will only be taken by those who are not only willing but wanting. People won't be innocently deceived in taking the mark. Peoples minds will be so entrenched in darkness that it will be a good thing to them, something to love, or just a natural progression to them.

Mallz wrote:I think it's both. Literal, and literal in it's symbolism. I think there will be a literal physical mark that will only be taken by those who are not only willing but wanting. People won't be innocently deceived in taking the mark. Peoples minds will be so entrenched in darkness that it will be a good thing to them, something to love, or just a natural progression to them.

I agree with Mallz here, it is both. The Mark will be on the forehead or hand which bears a weight of witness against those who receive it as being sold out to whomever the AC is and his system.

They already have a chip...

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31042477

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 32331.html

It is a matter of time to work out the kinks, infections, making the thing smaller, hold more and more data, etc and etc,,, Setting up a mainframe and infrastructure that can handle all the data...

Powers that be seem to be working on this venue to make it a reality.

Yes, the folks that are in the articles were glad recipients too..

Add to this, the fact Israel, after 1,878 year exile returned to the Homeland and made a nation in One Day in May 1948 as Isaiah 11:11 and Isaiah 66:8-11 mentions.

The event unfolding on the news and how wacky and depressing things are becoming worldwide: rise of Islam, beak down of law and order and decency, this chip implant, Sunni and Shiite groups coming together, Iran Nuke deal, Islamicization of Western Europe by means of mass immigration and now refuges, etc and etc...

To borrow from the Book of Daniel: the hand writing is on the wall...

...and more so than any time in history since Isaiah 11:11 has came to pass...
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melanie wrote: I definately get what your saying rain.
Absolutely there is a progression to a cashless society, it seems almost unavoidable that it will progress to such.
I read just a couple days ago that for those on social security payments it has been proposed that they will be paid via a cashless card to ensure money isn't being spent towards alcohol ect and only the essentials. It's sometime away before they implement it but the writing is on the wall, at some stage it will happen. Not just for people on benefits but across the board. Technology is only moving forward and I rarely use cash, I use a card with a microchip that I wave infront of a device.
I grew up watching the left behind series and I thought for a long time that the chip was the mark of the beast. I'm not saying that it's not or that it's not related to it but I'm no longer so sure.
The forehead is symbolic for our thoughts and hand for actions so it can also be assumed it may be a spiritual mark symbolic of our thoughts and deeds.
Receiving the mark is synonymous with worshipping the beast, if people are forced to get chip implants to have access to their money then I question whether this equates to knowingly worshipping the anti Christ.
I also question it because Satan is a mastermind of deception. It's the name of his game. But yet the Christian community and also non christians are quite aware of the chip implant and/or physical mark, being the mark of the beast. There have been quite a few movies depicting such.
Maybe it's not so black and white.
I just try to keep an open mind.

Hi Melanie,

Thanks for your comments. It's good you can see how this technology is progressing, and the movement to the cashless society is shaping up.

It's interesting to me that there has been widespread knowledge of the microchip and how it could be the mark for many years (as you testify), and that, coupled with the clear trend towards chips replacing money, one would think there becoming less and less reason to consider the mark being anything but something along this line of technology. However, that doesn't seem to be what's happening. On the contrary, the closer we seem to be getting towards the implementation of the mark, the more people are wanting to consider any other interpretation other than the one that seems to be most clear and rational.

I don't see anything to suggest in the scriptures that people will be physically forced to take the mark. However, it does say that ''he causes all''. That word 'causes' sounds like a kind of force, and I think it is, but not in the physical, strap you down, here's your mark kind of way. The force people will feel will be the force of knowing that if they don't have the mark, they won't be able to pay their rent, put food on their kids plates, have access to medical care, etc. People will very much have to choose to take the mark. Their choice will be a reflection of their faith in God or in Money to provide for them. Jesus said we can't serve two masters (Matthew 6:24). If people decide to take the mark, it's because they don't trust God. They are choosing to worship Satan or more specifically mammon, whether or not they ever bow down and kiss money.

I understand your thought about the Christian community knowing about the mark/chip, and that Satan is a mastermind of deception, and so one could think that ''there is no way the mark will be the chip, that's just to obvious, Satan would be a lot smarter than that''. But (aside from all the other evidence), wouldn't the greater deception be to make it incredibly obvious what the mark is, yet for people to deceive themselves into thinking that it's not?

I think an important thing to consider in this discussion, is that one of the main reasons for people NOT wanting to think the mark is the microchip or some other device along that line, is because what was once just theory is now becoming reality. The reality of what it means to forsake all and work for God and not money, is just too much for them, so they choose instead to look for any other interpretation, which conveniently always assures them of being able to hold onto everything it is that they don't want to let go.

Anyway, the most important thing is that we're all honestly looking at this issue with a willingness to hear what it is that we don't want to hear, and to let go of what it is that we're holding onto.

Peace, rain

In the not too distant future videos will be able to be presented as holograms, like in the film "Star Wars". It should not be hard for anyone in this day and age to imagine holograms coming out of the phone/television, if you need an idea of what it would be like look up "Augmented Reality" which became popular back in 2009.

Simply by stating the following one can get a sense of the very realness of Revelation 13:15-18.
The first 'beast' will be a person who will have seemed to have been healed by supposed aliens.
The supposed aliens will have used cyborg technology to supposedly transfer his consciousness
into a cyborg body just before he died (or something very similar).
This new technology would then also be "granted" to all humans;
one would simply be "given" a tattoo-able microchip... on your right hand or forehead...
that would record/store all your visual.. financial.. and audio data, and supposedly your consciousness, such that when your about to die, your data could just be transferred into another body.

"Evolve or die" would be the "playful" saying of the day.
To people still alive and interacting with these 'other bodies', perhaps the new cyborg body of a friend that died, it will seem to really still be the other person, but really it will be the biggest deception of all time; the mark of the beast.
At this time videos will be presented as holograms and everyone will be required to have the app that streams the live video of any of the first beasts' speeches. Whenever he speaks the app would alert the user and then start streaming the live video, which would come through as a hologram.. of a seeming cyborg man speaking... the image of the beast.

The app is actually already available today, for free, just without the holograms.
This future is not far away.

2016 (+ 35 years - Rev 13:3-10 - debates about supposed aliens - Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:6)
2051 (+ 7 years and end of 42 years{Rev 13:5} since 2016 - Rev 13:11-18)
2058 (+ 1181 years - Rev 19:11-21, 20:1-15 - the 1000 years and then Satans last years)
3239 (Hebrew year 7000 is the very end: Isaiah 46:10, Genesis 2:2, 2nd Peter 3:8)

Revelation 13:14 "...that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by the sword and did live(the first beast Rev 13:3)" When Revelation 13:17-18 says "number of the beast" it is referring to the number of the first beast, the number of the first beast is 666. The second beast is the last anti-Christ. The first beast is a kingdom, one that has 7 major kings and 10 minor kings (Rev 17:10-13) One of the major kings, a physical person, will seem to be wounded to death and then healed.(Rev 13:3) Most people inside of this kingdom, today, buy and sell using the number 666. But the image of the beast is not yet fully manifested, the head must be wounded first. To be damned one must both have the mark and worship the image (Revelation 14:9-10)
The first beast is the empire of the three city states. Washington D.C., the City of London, and Vatican City, all three being independent city states with an Egyptian obelisk in their center.

AmySeilnum wrote:In the not too distant future videos will be able to be presented as holograms, like in the film "Star Wars". It should not be hard for anyone in this day and age to imagine holograms coming out of the phone/television, if you need an idea of what it would be like look up "Augmented Reality" which became popular back in 2009.

Simply by stating the following one can get a sense of the very realness of Revelation 13:15-18.
The first 'beast' will be a person who will have seemed to have been healed by supposed aliens.
The supposed aliens will have used cyborg technology to supposedly transfer his consciousness
into a cyborg body just before he died (or something very similar).
This new technology would then also be "granted" to all humans;
one would simply be "given" a tattoo-able microchip... on your right hand or forehead...
that would record/store all your visual.. financial.. and audio data, and supposedly your consciousness, such that when your about to die, your data could just be transferred into another body.

"Evolve or die" would be the "playful" saying of the day.
To people still alive and interacting with these 'other bodies', perhaps the new cyborg body of a friend that died, it will seem to really still be the other person, but really it will be the biggest deception of all time; the mark of the beast.
At this time videos will be presented as holograms and everyone will be required to have the app that streams the live video of any of the first beasts' speeches. Whenever he speaks the app would alert the user and then start streaming the live video, which would come through as a hologram.. of a seeming cyborg man speaking... the image of the beast.

The app is actually already available today, for free, just without the holograms.
This future is not far away.

2016 (+ 35 years - Rev 13:3-10 - debates about supposed aliens - Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:6)
2051 (+ 7 years and end of 42 years{Rev 13:5} since 2016 - Rev 13:11-18)
2058 (+ 1181 years - Rev 19:11-21, 20:1-15 - the 1000 years and then Satans last years)
3239 (Hebrew year 7000 is the very end: Isaiah 46:10, Genesis 2:2, 2nd Peter 3:8)

You really need to re-think what you think you know because you still do not know the difference between the "beast" the anti-christ and the "lamb with two horns" nor do you have understanding about the roles they play.You cannot have understanding until you realize they are two different people working together. We have an anti-christ and the lamb with two horns and they are not the same people.
Stop prophesying until you have understanding.It is not good to be a false prophet,you can prophecy much better once you understand bible prophecy better. I hope you don't think I'm being mean to you because I'm not,you need to be corrected so that you will stop phrophesying false things. You may get mad at me now but you'll be glad I told you this if you follow my advice.