Evidence for God from Science

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ten-co ... E4?li=AA54

Sad really

Why is that sad?

Well, it was already there so why go after its removal?

The fact you feel a sense of satisfaction over its removal Ed (right?), shows that it means something.
Personally, I'm not tied to any particular statue and I didn't even know this one existed.

However, its proactive removal serves as a symbol that Oklahoma won't tolerate religion.
That there are those who won't be happy until any semblance of Christianity is eradicated.
And those who support such ideals will obviously be happy with its removal.

BUT, ultimately, such displays a lack of tolerance and lack of sensitivity.
That, is sad don't you think? Sends a message that being American and Christian simply do not mix.
I didn't know America was a Seculocracy and as such intolerant towards anything other.
Must one be secular to be truly American?

It's just lucky Oklahoma is dealing with Christians, right?
If that was a monument of the Koran, then I'm sure blood would be shed over its removal.
Definitely death threats to the judge and those involved.

Kurieuo wrote:Well, it was already there so why go after its removal?

They went for its removal, and won, because its placement violates the Constitution of Oklahoma.

Kurieuo wrote:The fact you feel a sense of satisfaction over its removal Ed (right?), shows that it means something.
Personally, I'm not tied to any particular statue and I didn't even know this one existed.

I agree with the decision, but it would be a stretch to say I'm basking in a sense of satisfaction. I don't care all that much about any statue either, but I strongly support the Constitutional separation between Church and State.

Kurieuo wrote:However, its proactive removal serves as a symbol that Oklahoma won't tolerate religion.
That there are those who won't be happy until any semblance of Christianity is eradicated.
And those who support such ideals will obviously be happy with its removal.

That's an absurd overreaction. Nobody is trying to eradicate Christianity. What's happening is that a few activists are pushing the courts to follow Constitutional law and stop allowing Christian symbols to be displayed in government buildings as if Christianity were recognized as the official state religion. The government of the United States is secular. The people are free to worship however they choose, and that very much includes Christians. Churches are still everywhere and still tax-exempt. Individuals can still put all of the Christian imagery they want on their private property. Politicians still relentlessly pander to Christian leaders and voters. And most importantly, nobody that I've ever heard of is attempting to change any of that.

Kurieuo wrote:BUT, ultimately, such displays a lack of tolerance and lack of sensitivity.
That, is sad don't you think? Sends a message that being American and Christian simply do not mix.
I didn't know America was a Seculocracy and as such intolerant towards anything other.
Must one be secular to be truly American?

Being American and being Christian don't mix because a statue was moved? Really? Last I looked 70% of the population of the United States Christian, as was the vast majority of our elected officials. The point here is that that fact doesn't change the fact that there is a Constitutional separation of Church and State. That's not just the law, it's a founding principle of our democracy. I understand how some Christians would resent losing special privileges, but trying to spin that as persecution is factually incorrect.

Kurieuo wrote:It's just lucky Oklahoma is dealing with Christians, right?
If that was a monument of the Koran, then I'm sure blood would be shed over its removal.
Definitely death threats to the judge and those involved.

When Oklahoma passed a Constitutional amendment banning Sharia law the Muslim response was to take them to court. Why would it be any different with a Muslim statue?

It's also ridiculous to argue that Islam has cornered the market on intolerance, violence, or extremism. Christianity provides plenty of all those things. Sure, Christian terrorism is much less common than Muslim terrorism, but that's less about religious differences and more about the fact that the conflict between Islam and the West is extremely asymmetric. I imagine that the terrorists would much rather drive us out of the Middle East with tank battalions and air strikes, but they can't so they use what they have. If the roles were reversed I expect we'd do the same.

The 10 commandments were given to Israel. Although part of the bible, the 10 commandments are not Christian, any more than the Levitical laws are Christian. As such, the monument wasn't mixing Christianity with government.

It was simply a historical display. Not a means to mix Judaism and the govt.

RickD wrote:The 10 commandments were given to Israel. Although part of the bible, the 10 commandments are not Christian, any more than the Levitical laws are Christian. As such, the monument wasn't mixing Christianity with government.

It was simply a historical display. Not a means to mix Judaism and the govt.

Are you saying the 10.commandmands dont apply to us christians?

I'm in agreement with Ed on this one. We are at a cross-roads as American Christians where we must recognize certain rights that are in conflict with our beliefs such as gay marriage. It won't be long until polygamy is also made legal and why not, if 2 men or 2 women can form a union, why not 3 or 5? The political tide has shifted and if we do not intend to shift our most fundamental beliefs with the tide then we'd better advocate, no insist on total and radical separation of church and state. I mean from every facet, marriage becomes a religious institution only; the government will only recognize civil unions. Change the tax code (heck all government code) to eliminate any reference to gender, marriage, spousal relations, etc. Abolish any and all tax benefits for 'unionized' persons, change inheritance laws, guardianship, property ownership and transfer, proxies, etc. etc. As Christians we ought to be pushing for this change because that's where the trend is going anyway, if not this year then the next, if not this decade then certainly the next. At least if we champion this cause we can be certain to also advocate to preserve certain rights or risk getting swept with the tide.

Nessa wrote:

RickD wrote:The 10 commandments were given to Israel. Although part of the bible, the 10 commandments are not Christian, any more than the Levitical laws are Christian. As such, the monument wasn't mixing Christianity with government.

It was simply a historical display. Not a means to mix Judaism and the govt.

Are you saying the 10.commandmands dont apply to us christians?

Aren't you precious!

RickD wrote:

Nessa wrote:

RickD wrote:The 10 commandments were given to Israel. Although part of the bible, the 10 commandments are not Christian, any more than the Levitical laws are Christian. As such, the monument wasn't mixing Christianity with government.

It was simply a historical display. Not a means to mix Judaism and the govt.

Are you saying the 10.commandmands dont apply to us christians?

Aren't you precious!

Will wait til you have finished laughing before I reply...





omg, you are still going?


ok, so I do see them as applying to us and for us too....If the bible is living then why not? Sure you have to read the bible in context but how can you compare lev law to 10 commandments?

Yes we are not under the law but does not God still expect us to keep it..the principles?

Jesus said hey dont get me wrong...I have not come to do away with the law...

Nessa wrote:

RickD wrote:

Nessa wrote:

RickD wrote:The 10 commandments were given to Israel. Although part of the bible, the 10 commandments are not Christian, any more than the Levitical laws are Christian. As such, the monument wasn't mixing Christianity with government.

It was simply a historical display. Not a means to mix Judaism and the govt.

Are you saying the 10.commandmands dont apply to us christians?

Aren't you precious!

Will wait til you have finished laughing before I reply...





omg, you are still going?


ok, so I do see them as applying to us and for us too....If the bible is living then why not? Sure you have to read the bible in context but how can you compare lev law to 10 commandments?

I compare the Levitical law with the 10 commandments, because they were both given specifically to Israel.

Just look at Exodus 20, where the 10 commandments were given. It shows the context:
20 Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]slavery.

And then the text goes on to list the commandments. They weren't given to gentile believers. They were given to the nation of Israel.

I believe the 10 commandments have a primary meaning and context but that it doesnt stop there. It has applicable meaning for us as christians too.

Nessa,

Read this.

RickD wrote:Nessa,

Read this.

I dunno, I guess I have always seen it differently..
I dont look to the 10 commandments to 'save me' as if I am judged by them cos then surely Id deserve hell.

But as I said, I don't dismiss them either. Jesus came to shed light on them...to expand on them...to fufil them. I think he was saying in Matt 5 that dont think you can dismiss the law...tell you what..im going to make it even harder...you hate your brother and you have already killed him in your heart...

i always thought this verse Matthew 22:37-40 was the reason we didn't follow the ten commandments anymore. that along with it being part of the old covenant.