Evidence for God from Science

I often see this line of argument used by sceptics. They claim that the man, Jesus of Nazareth, being God himself as part of the Trinity, therefore created the universe and all its parts down to each individual quark and neutrino, and go on to assert that this notion is utterly ridiculous. I must say, I am struggling to reconcile it myself. The thought of this man having the knowledge and ability to create the universe is staggering!

Is it, therefore, correct to state that Jesus did such a thing? As He is part of the Trinity, it seems obvious that He did. Yet the thought of the man who lived in Judea and preached the gospel being the Creator seems bizarre.

What are your thoughts on this?

Hi Disciplical,

Maybe this will help you better understand.
What is the hypostatic Union?

Disciplical wrote:I often see this line of argument used by sceptics. They claim that the man, Jesus of Nazareth, being God himself as part of the Trinity, therefore created the universe and all its parts down to each individual quark and neutrino, and go on to assert that this notion is utterly ridiculous. I must say, I am struggling to reconcile it myself. The thought of this man having the knowledge and ability to create the universe is staggering!

Is it, therefore, correct to state that Jesus did such a thing? As He is part of the Trinity, it seems obvious that He did. Yet the thought of the man who lived in Judea and preached the gospel being the Creator seems bizarre.

What are your thoughts on this?

Gen 1:1 בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃

Beginning Created Elohim Aleph - Tav heavens and earth

In the Beginning God (Aleph - the beginning and Tav the end) created the heavens and the earth.

Aleph and Tav was not translated in the text. Aleph is the first letter in the ancient Hebrew alphabet and Tav was the last letter. Hence, you have the beginning and the end or the alpha and Omega mentioned here.

These verses speak of God as being the first and the last - the beginning and the end, the Alpeh and Tav

Isa 41:4, Isa 44:6, Isa 48:12,13

Col 1:16,17,18

John 1:3; 1Co 8:6; Eph 3:9; Heb 1:2, Heb 1:10-12, Heb 3:3-4

Therefore, know these things first in yourself and you will do well... before you can speak to others...
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The bible EXPLICITLY states that ALL was created BY Him and FOR him.
What does that mean of course?
Well, that is a different story.
Of course, IF to assert that Christ created all is, well staggering as you said, how much MORE staggering is it to state that all came by pure chance with no "start point".

Guys,

The issue in the op isn't if The Son is the creator. The issue is if the MAN, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is the creator.

Since the incarnation of Christ happened inside of time, and creation, it makes sense that the MAN Jesus, wasn't the creator. Or in other words, the Son, the second Person of the Trinity was the Creator, before he took on human nature.

RickD wrote:Guys,

The issue in the op isn't if The Son is the creator. The issue is if the MAN, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is the creator.

Since the incarnation of Christ happened inside of time, and creation, it makes sense that the MAN Jesus, wasn't the creator. Or in other words, the Son, the second Person of the Trinity was the Creator, before he took on human nature.

If that is the issue then it is a non-issue since the MAN Jesus Christ came after the beginning of creation.
Seems like another case of creating a view that doesn't exist and then going about dispelling it:
The universe couldn't have been created by the MAN Jesus that lived in the 1st century ancient near east because the universe already existed?

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:Guys,

The issue in the op isn't if The Son is the creator. The issue is if the MAN, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is the creator.

Since the incarnation of Christ happened inside of time, and creation, it makes sense that the MAN Jesus, wasn't the creator. Or in other words, the Son, the second Person of the Trinity was the Creator, before he took on human nature.

If that is the issue then it is a non-issue since the MAN Jesus Christ came after the beginning of creation.
Seems like another case of creating a view that doesn't exist and then going about dispelling it:
The universe couldn't have been created by the MAN Jesus that lived in the 1st century ancient near east because the universe already existed?

Right.

Disciplical is looking for a way to show skeptics what the proper answer to their objection is.

These skeptics obviously don't have the slightest understanding of the incarnation, and the hypostatic Union.

Perhaps it would be best so say that Jesus Christ created everything. By using the title Christ you make it clear that you are speaking about his total being and not just his humanity.

Read and study John chapter 1 it will give you your answer.

Okay Disciplical,

He is an objective lesson you can use.

Take one whole ripe Orange. Hold it up to them and ask then this: is this an orange?

Next, cut it in half and with one half of the orange peal it and present the fruit to them and ask if this is an orange...

Then take a glass, using the other peeled half and squeeze the juice of the orange into a clear glass and ask if this Orange juice is also all orange.

Next, show them the orange peal, the fruit, and the Juice and ask if each is different, yet, the same substance - orange.

Ask them what the function of the orange peal is, what the function of the orange fruit is and does, and what the function of the orange juice is and does.

Are there three separate functions to one orange?

God is no orange, God sent forth His own living fruit to humanity, so we can partake of His own heavenly juice (living waters) daily. The Peal directs the sending of the fruit and juice and yet they are all orange. Similarly is God as it is written in Isaiah 46:9 "...For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me..." or Isa 46:5 or Deut 33:26.

Say to them: There is none like God is there? while picking up the fruit and the juice.

And say Yes, Jesus created as that is what he does... produces seed... (if the fruit of the Orange has a seed in it, remove it and show them).

The effect is priceless...

Next, ask the Lord to empower you with his words, wisdom, and knowledge to speak the rest to them...and go with it.
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Disciplical wrote:I often see this line of argument used by sceptics. They claim that the man, Jesus of Nazareth, being God himself as part of the Trinity, therefore created the universe and all its parts down to each individual quark and neutrino, and go on to assert that this notion is utterly ridiculous. I must say, I am struggling to reconcile it myself. The thought of this man having the knowledge and ability to create the universe is staggering!

Is it, therefore, correct to state that Jesus did such a thing? As He is part of the Trinity, it seems obvious that He did. Yet the thought of the man who lived in Judea and preached the gospel being the Creator seems bizarre.

What are your thoughts on this?

Christians had a similar discussion when talking of Mary "Mother of God" (Theotokos).
How absurd is that, right? It lead to the Hypostatic Union and an understanding of the communicatio idiomatum ("communication of properties"). This is where the attributes of both the divine and human natures are ascribed to the one person of Jesus, such that what is true of one is true of the other. Read more

Nonetheless, Jesus "the man" didn't, but rather Jesus the Word of God did create everything, and therefore we can say this was true of Jesus (John 1)

If you believe in God, as the most powerful Being possible, then could such a being not take up human form?
And, if God took up human form, then would this mean God didn't create?
The question isn't whether such specifics sound extraordinary, but rather whether such is true.
Such is possible, right? Whether or not you believe Jesus is God, well that's another question.

I will add that ridiculous is thinking absurd that in a world that possesses both intelligence and non-sentient matter, that it is only rational to believe in an all-existing unintelligent and non-sentient cause and foundation. Or that everything just "popped" into existence from nothing at all. Or that everything is just hung upon nothing having no real foundation.

The Word.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuYEJ5zMFvY

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
When man was created in vs 26 It talks about "Us' -- man being created in Our image and likeness.

John 1:1 "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word Was God----- everything in this world has been created by Him." Without Him nothing exists that Does exist.

The Word / Godhead was doing it.