Evidence for God from Science

Ok before I get the answer, of course he doesnt I have been building my foundation in Jesus for the last year now, as some of you may notice from this very discussion board a year ago. I was doing some awesome army training today and got into a small conversation with an atheist today. Everytime I think my doubt in God is definitely gone for good I get tested again and again. This time it was God thinks its ok to rape and to have slaves and its all in Leviticus. So naturally I read for myself a few things and it doesnt seem that's what it says at all. And then he hits me with some other piece of scripture. And then another piece of scripture, and then he says," well dont all these pieces of scripture contradict each other?" And all i can do is look at him and say..uhhhhhhhhhhh... Naturually this goes well beyond just the rape and slavery examples. Perhaps some of you can just put in some contridictions use by athiest and explain them to me or help me to understand. Everytime i doubt for even half a second, i use that as an excuse to look at porn...which i have no business doing in the first place because im married. Anywaysss... all answers are welcome, thanks!

Hi military

I`m not well versed enough in Scripture to help with that but my personal opinion would be that everything in the Bible would have/will make sense to the people it was/is aimed at.
Slaves, as far as I know, were common and it didn`t have the stigma that it carries today. I believe that being a slave wasn`t something to be ashamed of, or forced but like I say, my knowledge is shaky so don`t quote me on that.

As for the using your doubt to look at porn.... it`s a good thing that you admit you use it as an excuse to watch porn. Why do you? I have mixed feelings, as a woman, about porn. Part of me thinks it`s wrong and exploitative, objectifying women as sexual objects, demeaning a beautiful, loving act between two people but then part of me thinks where`s the harm? The "actors" choose to do it (I know there are some cases where there is abuse but generally it`s the persons choice) and it provides some relief for men (generally)
Maybe when you get these periods of doubt instead of turning to porn, turn to God, or your wife (if that`s possible. I don`t know if you`re stationed away)
Personally I think watching porn will just lead you further away from God when you need to be clinging onto Him with everything you have.

Use your moments of doubt to strengthen your belief, turn to God even more, doubt is just the flip side to faith, flip the coin

There are many causal laws in the OT.
These are laws that exist NOT to CONDONE activities but to regulate and state a punishment for them.
Just like saying that if a person steals they will go to jail is NOT condoning theft as long as a person goes to jail, make rules and penalties for those that choose to have slaves is NOT condoning slavery.

As for porn, looking at people with lust is a sin, period.

Military, there's a lot of stuff, especially in the Old Testament, that SEEMS as if God does or causes sinful things, atrocities, etc. I would HIGHLY recommend this book, as it brings comforting enlightenment to many such concerns: It is called, "Is God a Moral Monster," by Paul Copan, PhD: http://www.amazon.com/God-Moral-Monster ... al+monster Especially with asserted issues of genocide, slavery, etc. - subjects that do cause Christians concern and to wonder how the "Old Testament" God can be same God as Jesus.

militarynewb wrote:Ok before I get the answer, of course he doesnt I have been building my foundation in Jesus for the last year now, as some of you may notice from this very discussion board a year ago. I was doing some awesome army training today and got into a small conversation with an atheist today. Everytime I think my doubt in God is definitely gone for good I get tested again and again. This time it was God thinks its ok to rape and to have slaves and its all in Leviticus. So naturally I read for myself a few things and it doesnt seem that's what it says at all. And then he hits me with some other piece of scripture. And then another piece of scripture, and then he says," well dont all these pieces of scripture contradict each other?" And all i can do is look at him and say..uhhhhhhhhhhh... Naturually this goes well beyond just the rape and slavery examples. Perhaps some of you can just put in some contridictions use by athiest and explain them to me or help me to understand. Everytime i doubt for even half a second, i use that as an excuse to look at porn...which i have no business doing in the first place because im married. Anywaysss... all answers are welcome, thanks!

Well, rape isn't condoned by God in Scripture.

As for slavery, Israel was quite leading in this area. Today, we just let people be homeless, become beggars and die on the street. Back then, Israel had to take ownership over the poor and outcast, through offering them food, allowing them to work (yes, under the house of a more wealthy person that they "served" -- but employees all "serve" too!). But, they were still bound to respect that person working for them with inalienable rights, and they could run away and were to be protected where abuse happened, and they were also to be set free at the seven year period of Jubilee.

BUT, to an Atheist, they've been trained to believe any response is an excuse and twisting Scripture. In fact, they're the ones just superficially reading Scripture from an elitest morality they ground in themselves or modern society with it's own evils -- without understanding who it is for, the time period and the rich theology behind it all.

So what is an adequate response? Well, firstly, do yourself a favour and get that book Philip recommended. I'm sure it'll be a great help to you. Investigate each issue one at a time for yourself. There are very detailed answers that can be found online. The only way to deal with them, is to really deal with one at a time, and at least hear responses from good theologians. In the end, you can always draw your own conclusions. While I don't expect an Atheist to have the patience to fairly investigate each besides crying foul with "look they stone gays and women." BUT, for you, you need to look into each. And, if you're still at a loss, I'm sure some here can help you with your question.

So then, secondly, turning to the Atheist. How do you respond? You respond with Jesus' response when he was challenged by the Pharisees to stone a woman caught in adultery. Those without the sin cast the first stone. Or, why not take the plank out of your own eye, and then you can remove the speck from another's eye. You see, and this is very Scriptural whether talking OT or NT -- "the wages of sin is death." Any sin. One sin. Before a fully righteous God wherein there is no evil, who is entirely pure and cannot accept any blemish, you ought to be zapped dead.

Israel entered into a covenant with God based upon Law... and so quite naturally, a lot of sins carried the death penalty for them. Covenant, means "to cut" and quite literally Abraham cut animals in two when God entered into a covenant with him. And then Mosaic covenant was based upon the commandments given. The covenant was all about the Law. All about remaining holy, pure and God's people. To not keep the covenant meant you were to be severed, cut off.

And then we read in Jeremiah of a new covenant God will make. In Jeremiah 31:31-34 we read:

• 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
  

And, this is why the Law is overwritten with the good news of grace, forgiveness and compassion that Jesus installed. Jeremiah, was perhaps the first obvious harbinger, of this new covenant God would have with us -- one of grace and forgiveness. Jesus was the one who revealed it, and in Christ we understand just how God can accept us in dealing with our sins, to the extent that we no longer need to die from them -- but rather can find a relationship with a 100% righteous and holy God. Christ is our ultimate and final priest who will forever intercede on our behalf with God, and therefore it is only through Christ that we can enter into God's presence.

So, whereas in the Old Covenant, people entered into a covenant of Law with God which only really brought failure and condemnation when Israel failed to keep it, the New Covenant is what we find in Christ and is founded upon grace and forgiveness and a change which happens in our heart, not actions which often just became empty ritualised practices. As Scripture says, God doesn't desire sacrifice but our true heart. (Hosea 6:6)

So then, Israel entered into a covenant with God. The punishment of any sin ought to have been death. They were under very strict laws. Such demonstrated that we fail to live up to God's standard. God then promised a new covenant that would not depend upon our actions, but rather based upon our faith like with Abraham (it was all God making the promises with Abraham and torch going through the animal halves). This is why the NT (grace) looks so drastically different from the OT (works).

And as for polygamy, Jesus is clear that such was tolerated due to the hardness of hearts -- but that such was not intended in the beginning. God designed man and woman to enter into each other, and where that intended design is ignored, well there will be natural repercussions.

Looks like someone had his caffeine today.

Great post Kurieuo!

Kurieuo wrote:

militarynewb wrote:Ok before I get the answer, of course he doesnt I have been building my foundation in Jesus for the last year now, as some of you may notice from this very discussion board a year ago. I was doing some awesome army training today and got into a small conversation with an atheist today. Everytime I think my doubt in God is definitely gone for good I get tested again and again. This time it was God thinks its ok to rape and to have slaves and its all in Leviticus. So naturally I read for myself a few things and it doesnt seem that's what it says at all. And then he hits me with some other piece of scripture. And then another piece of scripture, and then he says," well dont all these pieces of scripture contradict each other?" And all i can do is look at him and say..uhhhhhhhhhhh... Naturually this goes well beyond just the rape and slavery examples. Perhaps some of you can just put in some contridictions use by athiest and explain them to me or help me to understand. Everytime i doubt for even half a second, i use that as an excuse to look at porn...which i have no business doing in the first place because im married. Anywaysss... all answers are welcome, thanks!

Well, rape isn't condoned by God in Scripture.

As for slavery, Israel was quite leading in this area. Today, we just let people be homeless, become beggars and die on the street. Back then, Israel had to take ownership over the poor and outcast, through offering them food, allowing them to work (yes, under the house of a more wealthy person that they "served" -- but employees all "serve" too!). But, they were still bound to respect that person working for them with inalienable rights, and they could run away and were to be protected where abuse happened, and they were also to be set free at the seven year period of Jubilee.

BUT, to an Atheist, they've been trained to believe any response is an excuse and twisting Scripture. In fact, they're the ones just superficially reading Scripture from an elitest morality they ground in themselves or modern society with it's own evils -- without understanding who it is for, the time period and the rich theology behind it all.

So what is an adequate response? Well, firstly, do yourself a favour and get that book Philip recommended. I'm sure it'll be a great help to you. Investigate each issue one at a time for yourself. There are very detailed answers that can be found online. The only way to deal with them, is to really deal with one at a time, and at least hear responses from good theologians. In the end, you can always draw your own conclusions. While I don't expect an Atheist to have the patience to fairly investigate each besides crying foul with "look they stone gays and women." BUT, for you, you need to look into each. And, if you're still at a loss, I'm sure some here can help you with your question.

So then, secondly, turning to the Atheist. How do you respond? You respond with Jesus' response when he was challenged by the Pharisees to stone a woman caught in adultery. Those without the sin cast the first stone. Or, why not take the plank out of your own eye, and then you can remove the speck from another's eye. You see, and this is very Scriptural whether talking OT or NT -- "the wages of sin is death." Any sin. One sin. Before a fully righteous God wherein there is no evil, who is entirely pure and cannot accept any blemish, you ought to be zapped dead.

Israel entered into a covenant with God based upon Law... and so quite naturally, a lot of sins carried the death penalty for them. Covenant, means "to cut" and quite literally Abraham cut animals in two when God entered into a covenant with him. And then Mosaic covenant was based upon the commandments given. The covenant was all about the Law. All about remaining holy, pure and God's people. To not keep the covenant meant you were to be severed, cut off.

And then we read in Jeremiah of a new covenant God will make. In Jeremiah 31:31-34 we read:

• 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
  

And, this is why the Law is overwritten with the good news of grace, forgiveness and compassion that Jesus installed. Jeremiah, was perhaps the first obvious harbinger, of this new covenant God would have with us -- one of grace and forgiveness. Jesus was the one who revealed it, and in Christ we understand just how God can accept us in dealing with our sins, to the extent that we no longer need to die from them -- but rather can find a relationship with a 100% righteous and holy God. Christ is our ultimate and final priest who will forever intercede on our behalf with God, and therefore it is only through Christ that we can enter into God's presence.

So, whereas in the Old Covenant, people entered into a covenant of Law with God which only really brought failure and condemnation when Israel failed to keep it, the New Covenant is what we find in Christ and is founded upon grace and forgiveness and a change which happens in our heart, not actions which often just became empty ritualised practices. As Scripture says, God doesn't desire sacrifice but our true heart. (Hosea 6:6)

So then, Israel entered into a covenant with God. The punishment of any sin ought to have been death. They were under very strict laws. Such demonstrated that we fail to live up to God's standard. God then promised a new covenant that would not depend upon our actions, but rather based upon our faith like with Abraham (it was all God making the promises with Abraham and torch going through the animal halves). This is why the NT (grace) looks so drastically different from the OT (works).

And as for polygamy, Jesus is clear that such was tolerated due to the hardness of hearts -- but that such was not intended in the beginning. God designed man and woman to enter into each other, and where that intended design is ignored, well there will be natural repercussions.

Amen,very good answer. Be Bold Jeremiah for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXki_o61wJ0

Want to echo what Storyteller said about the bible being written to make sense to the people of its time.

We forget how old the bible actually is and how far we as a human society have changed since then. I recently listened to a speaker at my parents [Link deleted by moderator. Spam.]christian retirement condo[/url] that answered a similar question by pointing out how God gave humans the capacity to do evil and good but does not condone evil acts. Evil exists as a necessary opposite to good, forcing people to actively accept God's teachings through conscious thoughts and actions. The point was that God doesn't condone evil things but their existence is necessary as without evil, everyone would be pious by default, which isn't the same as choosing to do good.

MaryTres wrote:Want to echo what Storyteller said about the bible being written to make sense to the people of its time.

We forget how old the bible actually is and how far we as a human society have changed since then. I recently listened to a speaker at my parents[Link deleted by moderator. Spam.]christian retirement condo[/url] that answered a similar question by pointing out how God gave humans the capacity to do evil and good but does not condone evil acts. Evil exists as a necessary opposite to good, forcing people to actively accept God's teachings through conscious thoughts and actions. The point was that God doesn't condone evil things but their existence is necessary as without evil, everyone would be pious by default, which isn't the same as choosing to do good.

It is important to realize that evil isn't a capacity that was given or allowed to happen.
Evil is an ABSENCE of GOOD.
Like blindness is an absence of sight and not a "thing" in of itself.
Evil exists because people KNOWINGLY choose NOT to do good.
God has given us the knowledge of what is good, what is right and the understanding that choosing to the the opposite of what is good and right is wrong and to KNOWINGLY do something wrong is evil.