Atheist/non Christian

[Storyteller]

Okay....

In another thread I posted that one thing that puzzles me is why some don`t believe in God? Why wouldn`t anyone, at least, want to?

So...... why do you believe what you do?

I guess I`m more curious about those who don`t believe in God as it`s the opposite end of the spectrum to me. Why don`t you believe? Do you want to and just can`t? Or do you think it`s all just a trick? A way of control? Some sort of arrogance that we have to matter?

[Kenny]

Okay....

In another thread I posted that one thing that puzzles me is why some don`t believe in God? Why wouldn`t anyone, at least, want to?

So...... why do you believe what you do?

I generally believe what I do because it is the best information I have at the moment.

I guess I`m more curious about those who don`t believe in God as it`s the opposite end of the spectrum to me. Why don`t you believe? Do you want to and just can`t? Or do you think it`s all just a trick? A way of control? Some sort of arrogance that we have to matter?

For me belief is something that just happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. I don’t think I have the ability to choose to believe something that doesn’t sound realistic to me. I will admit there are some versions of God that does sound attractive, (there are also versions that make me wanna shake my head) but just because something sounds cool, doesn’t make it the truth.
I guess to answer your question; the reason I don’t believe is because the best information I have at the moment says otherwise.


Ken

[Storyteller]

Good to see you back Ken

So do you believe we just appeared? That all this that we see, that we are, arose from nothing?

I am really interested in why you think what you do, especially after some of the things we`ve discussed in pm. So what bits about God are appealing? What bits aren`t? Are you saying that you`ll only believe in a God that gives you what you want?
Do you want to believe in God but just can`t because you`re not convinced?

[Philip]

Well, for a starter, either an atheist doesn't understand science OR they believe the non-physical become physical, IMMEDIATELY, with immense power, with JUST the right elements/components, design, and instantly begin operating and also self-organizing with mind-blowing specificity - meaning, they must believe in an inexplicable and vast series of instantly arising and comprehensively interacting miracles. ALL of which NO known science can explain as to how previously non-existing physical things - ALL of which were perfectly functionally, highly complex, and totally necessary to produce our universe and, eventually, our world. But ALL known scientific understandings are predicated upon understanding cause and effects based upon some already existing thing or things. So, the atheist must admit he embraces metaphysics (MIRACLES!).

[Kenny]

The way I see it, if you don't accept actual infinities exist then that is all you need to reject the notion that there could be an infinite chain of cause and effect. On the other hand if you do accept that everything has a prior cause then it seems impossible to explain how the 'first thing' could have happened.

Basically, it looks as if the universe shouldn't exist - but, despite the philosophical inconvenience - it does.

I take this to imply that whatever happened back then, intuition and simple common-sense logic is not going to tell us anything very useful. We must be missing an essential piece of the puzzle and until someone finds it, the origin of he universe is going to - or rather will appear to - defy logic.

As I see it, the Cosmological Argument (an argument I’ve spent many pages discussing with many people on this forum) says something very obviously true - the origin of the universe must have been very peculiar. But I find it a leap of illogic to conclude the universe was created by God.

Might one call whatever brought the universe into existence God? Well, maybe, but God is such a loaded term. 'God' implies an entity with a personality, with consciousness and desires and preferences. For some, it even implies an entity that 'so loved the world he gave his only begotten son' etc., and who provides a home for dead souls. I find it going beyond valid logical inference to suppose all that is true just because the origin of the universe was a distinctly odd event.

To answer God, is very much 'god of the gaps', and the origin of the universe is a gap. But I doubt if it will be a gap forever. Until then theists can comfort themselves with the Cosmological Argument and skeptics like myself will continue to dismiss it.


Ken

[abelcainsbrother]

The way I see it, if you don't accept actual infinities exist then that is all you need to reject the notion that there could be an infinite chain of cause and effect.

Hi Ken, but I thought that we already knew infinite regression cannot be broken. It goes against logic,reason and reality to think so.So in order to reject God a person must go outside logic,reason and reality in order to do it and believe things that defies everything we know from logic,reason and reality.If and when a person accepts God they then are thinking logically,with reason and are in reality that live we live in because God is eternal and can create universes easy if he chooses to, then add this into it ALL things have a cause and all things that have a cause are caused by something else and all things are willed into existence. We do not have to deny these facts unless and until we reject God,then these facts go out the window and we then enter La La land and then believe things that are not logical,have no reason behind it and are outside reality. Now just because these facts apply to the things in our universe they do not apply to the God of the bible,they could apply to other man-made god's but not the God of the bible because God is in heaven outside our reality but he can enter our world too if he chooses to do so,so we know that these facts of our world cannot and do not apply to our God based on the God we believe in and serve.

[MBPrata]

In another thread I posted that one thing that puzzles me is why some don`t believe in God? Why wouldn`t anyone, at least, want to?

Like I said, it's not that puzzling. In order to understand, all you need is a little bit of mind flexibility that christians usually ask to believers-wanna-be.

Why don`t you believe?

That's difficult, because the reasons vary with time. In the beginning, I didn't believe because my parents told me there was no God. When I grew up and realized most adults are full of [poop] (I'm sorry, but it's my opinion), I kept believing in no god because the universe just seemed too lifeless for the supreme force to be "alive"/concious/have a personality/whatever. I thought...if the supreme force is conscious, why is everything so lifeless?
In 2012, I read mr. Deem's website and was convinced that the complexity of the universe implied some intelligence. However, later, I found out spontaneous creation theory and I had to see if I saw more sense on spontaneous creation or God. What made more sense to me was spontaneous creation, because it explained why the universe seemed so intelligent and so stupid at the same time.
Spontaneous creation made me realize that, if everything is just flat-out absurd, then there's no need to explain anything, because everything is absurd and has no reason or logic...rather than the one we make up in our heads. All those things atheism doesn't explain? No need to explain; it's just absurd!

Do you want to and just can`t?

Of course I want to. Are you kidding me? Believing that anything has a purpose and there is a way of preventing consciousness to end? Yes, please! But no, I just can't. I mean, maybe I could live as a deist or something, but the God of the Bible doesn't make sense to me. I don't get why He would fill the universe with evidence pointing for both intelligence and stupidity. (oh, and what's with that stupid idea of leaving the universe's design as an evidence for Him? We humans lived thousands of years without knowing the universe appears to be designed... )

Or do you think it`s all just [...] A way of control?

Some entities do use religion as a way of control - which is pretty clever, since there is no way to prove their god doesn't exist, as it is outside of our universe - but I don't know if that was why belief in god appeared in the first place, so I wouldn't call it a way of control.

Some sort of arrogance that we have to matter?

That may not be the key factor, but it sure helps a lot! We know enough about our brain to realize we practically don't control it; it pratically controls us. So, yeah, if our brain wants us to be convinced of something, we will freaking do it. Against all exterior evidence and interference...

[abelcainsbrother]

Romans 6:23" For the wages of sin is death;but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 8:22-23 "For we know that the whole world groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.And not only they,but ourselves also,which have the first-fruits of the Spirit,even we ourselves groan within ourselves,waiting for the adoption,to wit,the redemption of our body."

[abelcainsbrother]

MBPrats sais

Like I said, it's not that puzzling. In order to understand, all you need is a little bit of mind flexibility that christians usually ask to believers-wanna-be.

The flexibility he is talking about is to go outside logic,reason and reality to reject the facts -ALL things have a cause and ALL things that have a cause are caused by something else and ALL things are willed into existence and infinite regression cannot be broken.

To reject God means to be flexible in your thinking to reject these facts,to reject God a person MUST deny these facts.MBPrata believes not all things have a cause and all things that have a cause are not caused by something else and all things are not willed into existence and infinite regression can be broken,but to believe this goes against everything we know about everything in our universe and is outside reality in order to deny God. There is no way to avoid this if a person rejects God, and yet it is easy to believe Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." It is much much harder to deny logic,reason and reality to reject God and to somehow believe man can prove these facts wrong with science.

[Kenny]

MBPrats sais

Like I said, it's not that puzzling. In order to understand, all you need is a little bit of mind flexibility that christians usually ask to believers-wanna-be.

The flexibility he is talking about is to go outside logic,reason and reality to reject the facts -ALL things have a cause and ALL things that have a cause are caused by something else and ALL things are willed into existence and infinite regression cannot be broken.

If ALL things have a cause, that would include God as well. So who caused God?

Ken

[RickD]

MBPrats sais

Like I said, it's not that puzzling. In order to understand, all you need is a little bit of mind flexibility that christians usually ask to believers-wanna-be.

The flexibility he is talking about is to go outside logic,reason and reality to reject the facts -ALL things have a cause and ALL things that have a cause are caused by something else and ALL things are willed into existence and infinite regression cannot be broken.

If ALL things have a cause, that would include God as well. So who caused God?

Ken

Kenny,

God is not a thing. But of course you know that, because you've been over this before.

[abelcainsbrother]

MBPrats sais

Like I said, it's not that puzzling. In order to understand, all you need is a little bit of mind flexibility that christians usually ask to believers-wanna-be.

The flexibility he is talking about is to go outside logic,reason and reality to reject the facts -ALL things have a cause and ALL things that have a cause are caused by something else and ALL things are willed into existence and infinite regression cannot be broken.

If ALL things have a cause, that would include God as well. So who caused God?

Ken

Straw-man god,God is eternal,we do not worship or believe in a created God,soit does not apply to the God we believe in.It is a straw-man god. You're still outside reality in order to deny God but you just refuse to acknowledge it.But you cannot name anything in our universe that does not apply to these facts - ALL things have a cause and ALL things that are caused are caused by something else and ALL things are willed into existence also infinite regression cannot be broken. You cannot name anything in our universe that does not apply to these facts and yet hold out hope somehow that man can somehow prove these facts wrong,just to deny God. Or either you just do not know,but regardless even if you don't know this for sure nothing in our universe leads you to believe that these facts are not true,it is just deciding to take the long way around and believe things contrary to what logic,reason and reality tells us or hold out hope that man can somehow show these facts do not apply.You have alot of faith outside logic,reason or reality in order to deny God. and youkeep ignoring the fact that our God is eternal.

[Kenny]

MBPrats sais

Like I said, it's not that puzzling. In order to understand, all you need is a little bit of mind flexibility that christians usually ask to believers-wanna-be.

The flexibility he is talking about is to go outside logic,reason and reality to reject the facts -ALL things have a cause and ALL things that have a cause are caused by something else and ALL things are willed into existence and infinite regression cannot be broken.

If ALL things have a cause, that would include God as well. So who caused God?

Ken

Straw-man god,God is eternal,we do not worship or believe in a created God,soit does not apply to the God we believe in.It is a straw-man god. You're still outside reality in order to deny God but you just refuse to acknowledge it.But you cannot name anything in our universe that does not apply to these facts - ALL things have a cause and ALL things that are caused are caused by something else and ALL things are willed into existence also infinite regression cannot be broken. You cannot name anything in our universe that does not apply to these facts and yet hold out hope somehow that man can somehow prove these facts wrong,just to deny God. Or either you just do not know,but regardless even if you don't know this for sure nothing in our universe leads you to believe that these facts are not true,it is just deciding to take the long way around and believe things contrary to what logic,reason and reality tells us or hold out hope that man can somehow show these facts do not apply.You have alot of faith outside logic,reason or reality in order to deny God. and youkeep ignoring the fact that our God is eternal.

If you are going to believe everything except your deity has a cause, that's fine; but until you can prove it, not everybody is going to simply take your word for it

Ken

[RickD]

MBPrats sais

Like I said, it's not that puzzling. In order to understand, all you need is a little bit of mind flexibility that christians usually ask to believers-wanna-be.

The flexibility he is talking about is to go outside logic,reason and reality to reject the facts -ALL things have a cause and ALL things that have a cause are caused by something else and ALL things are willed into existence and infinite regression cannot be broken.

If ALL things have a cause, that would include God as well. So who caused God?

Ken

Straw-man god,God is eternal,we do not worship or believe in a created God,soit does not apply to the God we believe in.It is a straw-man god. You're still outside reality in order to deny God but you just refuse to acknowledge it.But you cannot name anything in our universe that does not apply to these facts - ALL things have a cause and ALL things that are caused are caused by something else and ALL things are willed into existence also infinite regression cannot be broken. You cannot name anything in our universe that does not apply to these facts and yet hold out hope somehow that man can somehow prove these facts wrong,just to deny God. Or either you just do not know,but regardless even if you don't know this for sure nothing in our universe leads you to believe that these facts are not true,it is just deciding to take the long way around and believe things contrary to what logic,reason and reality tells us or hold out hope that man can somehow show these facts do not apply.You have alot of faith outside logic,reason or reality in order to deny God. and youkeep ignoring the fact that our God is eternal.

If you are going to believe everything except your deity has a cause, that's fine; but until you can prove it, not everybody is going to simply take your word for it

Ken

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/first-cause.htm

[Kurieuo]

MBPrats sais

Like I said, it's not that puzzling. In order to understand, all you need is a little bit of mind flexibility that christians usually ask to believers-wanna-be.

The flexibility he is talking about is to go outside logic,reason and reality to reject the facts -ALL things have a cause and ALL things that have a cause are caused by something else and ALL things are willed into existence and infinite regression cannot be broken.

If ALL things have a cause, that would include God as well. So who caused God?

Ken

Why not just say something we all agree on: Something has always existed at a foundational level
Right? Otherwise there would be nothing.

The fuller response that you gave is interesting and something I'd typically expect from Atheistic quarters re: belief in God being really god of the gaps and that.
Personally, I see God as the most clear and logical explanation until shown an alternative coherent understanding of reality and the world we live. How so? Well... here are a few short questions given we accept something has always existed (otherwise nothing would exist).

Question: Is the 'something that has always existed' sentient or non-sentient?

Don't know. Unclear right?

Question: Do we see sentience or non-sentience in the world?

Both.

Therefore, the something that has always existed must either be sentient, or have potentiality for expressing sentience.

From here, it is hard to see how sentience could truly arise from non-sentient inanimate matter. Rocks will forever be rocks, maybe dust, perhaps convert into energy is some way via external forces or the like, I don't know. But, otherwise, non-sentient. It seems to burden of proof are on those who'd argue sentience is entirely possible from pure matter.

It is more natural much easier to believe such sentience arises from sentience, and matter arises from matter. Indeed, we could even comprehend matter as being reduced to an illusion of mind (idealism rather than realism). Who knows. Everything could all somehow be living in/God's expression of his own mind.

If I read you correctly though Kenny (and perhaps MBPrata), your issue is not necessarily with an intelligence or sentience existing, but rather with God as a personal entity who desires a relationship; God who 'so loved the world he gave his only begotton son...'... right?

So your issue appears to be a practical one. Fine, a powerful intelligent entity could make better sense of the very peculiar "start" to our universe, consciousness that exists or the like.... BUT, unless we can identify the Christian God, or Muslim Allah, or something other as "the God" then it's kind of pointless. Meaninglessness. May as well just remain "Atheist".

After all our exchanges here and the like, I think Apatheism better describes your position than Atheism. In fact, I feel many Atheists I've often discussed with are really more Apatheists. Short of God revealing Himself personally to someone, that is a really hard position to come at. I, for one, really wouldn't know where to start.