Evidence for God from Science

The general consensus amongst Christians is that Jesus was the angel of the Lord, but couldn't it be as equally likely that he is also the Father or the Spirit?

This is a subject that has interested me for ages!
I think it was jesus..

When the angel of the lord appeared, he was worshiped.
He spoke in first person
He forgave sins

Just a few interesting things to begin with

FYI

I bumped an old thread up that addresses the Angel of Lord...

First page found here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

B. W. wrote:FYI

I bumped an old thread up that addresses the Angel of Lord...

First page found here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

Wow, just reading the first page alone and that's some heavy material. But do you mind if you could give a brief summary on the identity of the angel of the Lord?

Bluejay4 wrote:

B. W. wrote:FYI

I bumped an old thread up that addresses the Angel of Lord...

First page found here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

Wow, just reading the first page alone and that's some heavy material. But do you mind if you could give a brief summary on the identity of the angel of the Lord?

Summery:

Angel is a word translated from the Hebrew Malak. A Malak is a messenger, someone sent on to do a task , bear a message, or both. A Malak can be God himself, a person, or an actual angelic being. Using the word angel is not the best way to translate Malak as it often gives people the wrong idea of angelic beings in all cases it is used.

Context of the scripture helps identify who the messenger is. As pointed out in the thread linked too, I used the cases where the Malak is either Jesus preincarnate or the Holy Spirit or both. In Fact God reveals himself in the OT precisely how the Christian orthodox doctrine of the Trinity reveals. Often one see's Father, Son, Holy Spirit all appearing as Malaks to humanity. Other times, God will send a angelic being as one. It is the context of scripture that reveals who the Malak is without issues. The spelling HaElohim is used often to denote the Godhead when referring to God and translated as all the gods when used to denote false gods. That spelling is not identifiable in our English translations - one has to look for it.

Mentioned in first post was a broad brushed statement with not particular verses mentioned. Please send a scripture and from that I can show you from there how to tell...
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B. W. wrote:

Bluejay4 wrote:

B. W. wrote:FYI

I bumped an old thread up that addresses the Angel of Lord...

First page found here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

Wow, just reading the first page alone and that's some heavy material. But do you mind if you could give a brief summary on the identity of the angel of the Lord?

Summery:

Angel is a word translated from the Hebrew Malak. A Malak is a messenger, someone sent on to do a task , bear a message, or both. A Malak can be God himself, a person, or an actual angelic being. Using the word angel is not the best way to translate Malak as it often gives people the wrong idea of angelic beings in all cases it is used.

Context of the scripture helps identify who the messenger is. As pointed out in the thread linked too, I used the cases where the Malak is either Jesus preincarnate or the Holy Spirit or both. In Fact God reveals himself in the OT precisely how the Christian orthodox doctrine of the Trinity reveals. Often one see's Father, Son, Holy Spirit all appearing as Malaks to humanity. Other times, God will send a angelic being as one. It is the context of scripture that reveals who the Malak is without issues. The spelling HaElohim is used often to denote the Godhead when referring to God and translated as all the gods when used to denote false gods. That spelling is not identifiable in our English translations - one has to look for it.

Mentioned in first post was a broad brushed statement with not particular verses mentioned. Please send a scripture and from that I can show you from there how to tell...
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Okay then, who or what wreslted with Jacob? A regular messenger or God himself? If so which member of the trinity was it?

Bluejay4 wrote:

B. W. wrote:

Bluejay4 wrote:

B. W. wrote:FYI

I bumped an old thread up that addresses the Angel of Lord...

First page found here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

Wow, just reading the first page alone and that's some heavy material. But do you mind if you could give a brief summary on the identity of the angel of the Lord?

Summery:

Angel is a word translated from the Hebrew Malak. A Malak is a messenger, someone sent on to do a task , bear a message, or both. A Malak can be God himself, a person, or an actual angelic being. Using the word angel is not the best way to translate Malak as it often gives people the wrong idea of angelic beings in all cases it is used.

Context of the scripture helps identify who the messenger is. As pointed out in the thread linked too, I used the cases where the Malak is either Jesus preincarnate or the Holy Spirit or both. In Fact God reveals himself in the OT precisely how the Christian orthodox doctrine of the Trinity reveals. Often one see's Father, Son, Holy Spirit all appearing as Malaks to humanity. Other times, God will send a angelic being as one. It is the context of scripture that reveals who the Malak is without issues. The spelling HaElohim is used often to denote the Godhead when referring to God and translated as all the gods when used to denote false gods. That spelling is not identifiable in our English translations - one has to look for it.

Mentioned in first post was a broad brushed statement with not particular verses mentioned. Please send a scripture and from that I can show you from there how to tell...
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Okay then, who or what wreslted with Jacob? A regular messenger or God himself? If so which member of the trinity was it?

Jesus, I believe.

Bluejay, Nessa's correct, Jesus...

Text you mention concerning who Jacob wrestled with is Gen 32:1-2,24-32.

Gen 32:30, Jacob stated what about the one whom he just wrestled - that he wrestled was not with an angelic being but rather God. Now to find out more and see that is was the perincarnate Jesus , lets dig deeper a little bit more.

Look up Genesis 35:1, "God (Elohim) said to Jacob, "Arise, go up to Bethel and dwell there. Make an altar there to the God (EL) who appeared to you when you fled from your brother Esau."

This is in direct reference to to the events of Gen 31: 10-13 and Gen 32:1-32. God, which is in Hebrew EL, is used here not an angelic being. As He appeared to him in Bethal and in the river. have you been baptized yet?

In Genesis 35:1 NKJV God the Father himself identifies the wrestler as God and tells Jacob to go to Bethel and make an altar.

In Genesis 35:7 Jacob built an altar where God had revealed himself to Jacob when he fled from his brother. In verse 11 the wrestler is again identified as El Shaddai, another name often used of Jesus in the OT.

Note that back in Gen 31:11-13 identifies the place where God, in Bethel, told Jacob to stop fleeing and return to his kin. I will place the Hebrew word spellings here in English for you to help you understand.

Genesis 31:11,13: "Then the angel (Malek -Messenger) of God (haElohim) said to me in the dream, 'Jacob,' and I said, 'Here I am!' ...13 I am the God (EL) of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Now arise, go out from this land and return to the land of your kindred.'"

Translate the word angel as Messenger of God. God is written in a definite plural form of HaElohim which literally means all of God or God's whole essence, or God in his complete unity of being.

So you have a word bearing Messenger of the complete unity of God's being speaking to Jacob and in verse 13 this messenger says he is God (EL) of Bethel. He did not say he was an angelic being but God.

John 1:1,2,3,4,14 was written for a reason for Hebrew readers to catch on to whom he Word is... Jesus and Jesus mentioned in the NT that he came forth, proceeded forth from the Father...to do those things that please him.

Back to Genesis 35:1, 7 we have the location of Bethel and verse 7 Jacob called the place El-bethel as that is where God identified himself as the EL of Bethel. In Gen 35:9-11 God, a second time tells Jacob that he is now named Israel. Notice the second time to convey what was already said in Gen 32:28. This is another reference to Jesus the Son as the speaker is the same person who spoke in Gen 32:28 !

Also, the bible states that God confirms an oath He makes with no-one but himself. In the OT, you will often come across God confirming his oaths in one chapter then in another confirms the same oath again. Often with the use of personal pro-nouns, I, involved up to three times in succession! (Hebrews 6:13-18)

Genesis Jacob wrestled

With the evidence noted above now note Genesis 32:1-2: with the words identified and their meanings: Jacob went on his way, and the angels (Maleks - Messengers) of God (Elohim) met him. 2 And when Jacob saw them he said, "This is God's (Elohim) camp!" So he called the name of that place Mahanaim. (Meaning - two camps, or two host, or two tents)

The word Mahanaim means two camps, two tents, two host so two Host are identified! So the two Maleks Jacob saw was a theophany of both the Son and Holy Spirit. Jacob named the place appropriately. He soon went to cross the river and met one of the two host there in a theophany of a man. He wrestled with him.

Now back to Gen 32:30: Jacob stated what about the Malek/Messenger he wrestled? - that he was God. He wrestled and Lived! (Side notes: Psalms 27:8; Isa 55:6,7)

How do we know it was Jesus many clues such as John 1:1,2,3,4,14 and all the places where Jesus says come to him and find life in all the various ways he said. Some here: John 6:57, John 11:25, John 14:19
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B. W. wrote:Bluejay, Nessa's correct, Jesus...

Text you mention concerning who Jacob wrestled with is Gen 32:1-2,24-32.

Gen 32:30, Jacob stated what about the one whom he just wrestled - that he wrestled was not with an angelic being but rather God. Now to find out more and see that is was the perincarnate Jesus , lets dig deeper a little bit more.

Look up Genesis 35:1, "God (Elohim) said to Jacob, "Arise, go up to Bethel and dwell there. Make an altar there to the God (EL) who appeared to you when you fled from your brother Esau."

This is in direct reference to to the events of Gen 31: 10-13 and Gen 32:1-32. God, which is in Hebrew EL, is used here not an angelic being. As He appeared to him in Bethal and in the river. have you been baptized yet?

In Genesis 35:1 NKJV God the Father himself identifies the wrestler as God and tells Jacob to go to Bethel and make an altar.

In Genesis 35:7 Jacob built an altar where God had revealed himself to Jacob when he fled from his brother. In verse 11 the wrestler is again identified as El Shaddai, another name often used of Jesus in the OT.

Note that back in Gen 31:11-13 identifies the place where God, in Bethel, told Jacob to stop fleeing and return to his kin. I will place the Hebrew word spellings here in English for you to help you understand.

Genesis 31:11,13: "Then the angel (Malek -Messenger) of God (haElohim) said to me in the dream, 'Jacob,' and I said, 'Here I am!' ...13 I am the God (EL) of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Now arise, go out from this land and return to the land of your kindred.'"

Translate the word angel as Messenger of God. God is written in a definite plural form of HaElohim which literally means all of God or God's whole essence, or God in his complete unity of being.

So you have a word bearing Messenger of the complete unity of God's being speaking to Jacob and in verse 13 this messenger says he is God (EL) of Bethel. He did not say he was an angelic being but God.

John 1:1,2,3,4,14 was written for a reason for Hebrew readers to catch on to whom he Word is... Jesus and Jesus mentioned in the NT that he came forth, proceeded forth from the Father...to do those things that please him.

Back to Genesis 35:1, 7 we have the location of Bethel and verse 7 Jacob called the place El-bethel as that is where God identified himself as the EL of Bethel. In Gen 35:9-11 God, a second time tells Jacob that he is now named Israel. Notice the second time to convey what was already said in Gen 32:28. This is another reference to Jesus the Son as the speaker is the same person who spoke in Gen 32:28 !

Also, the bible states that God confirms an oath He makes with no-one but himself. In the OT, you will often come across God confirming his oaths in one chapter then in another confirms the same oath again. Often with the use of personal pro-nouns, I, involved up to three times in succession! (Hebrews 6:13-18)

Genesis Jacob wrestled

With the evidence noted above now note Genesis 32:1-2: with the words identified and their meanings: Jacob went on his way, and the angels (Maleks - Messengers) of God (Elohim) met him. 2 And when Jacob saw them he said, "This is God's (Elohim) camp!" So he called the name of that place Mahanaim. (Meaning - two camps, or two host, or two tents)

The word Mahanaim means two camps, two tents, two host so two Host are identified! So the two Maleks Jacob saw was a theophany of both the Son and Holy Spirit. Jacob named the place appropriately. He soon went to cross the river and met one of the two host there in a theophany of a man. He wrestled with him.

Now back to Gen 32:30: Jacob stated what about the Malek/Messenger he wrestled? - that he was God. He wrestled and Lived! (Side notes: Psalms 27:8; Isa 55:6,7)

How do we know it was Jesus many clues such as John 1:1,2,3,4,14 and all the places where Jesus says come to him and find life in all the various ways he said. Some here: John 6:57, John 11:25, John 14:19
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So in theory couldn't the angel who engaged Jacob have also been the Spirit taking human form?

Bluejay4 wrote:

B. W. wrote:Bluejay, Nessa's correct, Jesus...

Text you mention concerning who Jacob wrestled with is Gen 32:1-2,24-32.

Gen 32:30, Jacob stated what about the one whom he just wrestled - that he wrestled was not with an angelic being but rather God. Now to find out more and see that is was the perincarnate Jesus , lets dig deeper a little bit more.

Look up Genesis 35:1, "God (Elohim) said to Jacob, "Arise, go up to Bethel and dwell there. Make an altar there to the God (EL) who appeared to you when you fled from your brother Esau."

This is in direct reference to to the events of Gen 31: 10-13 and Gen 32:1-32. God, which is in Hebrew EL, is used here not an angelic being. As He appeared to him in Bethal and in the river. have you been baptized yet?

In Genesis 35:1 NKJV God the Father himself identifies the wrestler as God and tells Jacob to go to Bethel and make an altar.

In Genesis 35:7 Jacob built an altar where God had revealed himself to Jacob when he fled from his brother. In verse 11 the wrestler is again identified as El Shaddai, another name often used of Jesus in the OT.

Note that back in Gen 31:11-13 identifies the place where God, in Bethel, told Jacob to stop fleeing and return to his kin. I will place the Hebrew word spellings here in English for you to help you understand.

Genesis 31:11,13: "Then the angel (Malek -Messenger) of God (haElohim) said to me in the dream, 'Jacob,' and I said, 'Here I am!' ...13 I am the God (EL) of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Now arise, go out from this land and return to the land of your kindred.'"

Translate the word angel as Messenger of God. God is written in a definite plural form of HaElohim which literally means all of God or God's whole essence, or God in his complete unity of being.

So you have a word bearing Messenger of the complete unity of God's being speaking to Jacob and in verse 13 this messenger says he is God (EL) of Bethel. He did not say he was an angelic being but God.

John 1:1,2,3,4,14 was written for a reason for Hebrew readers to catch on to whom he Word is... Jesus and Jesus mentioned in the NT that he came forth, proceeded forth from the Father...to do those things that please him.

Back to Genesis 35:1, 7 we have the location of Bethel and verse 7 Jacob called the place El-bethel as that is where God identified himself as the EL of Bethel. In Gen 35:9-11 God, a second time tells Jacob that he is now named Israel. Notice the second time to convey what was already said in Gen 32:28. This is another reference to Jesus the Son as the speaker is the same person who spoke in Gen 32:28 !

Also, the bible states that God confirms an oath He makes with no-one but himself. In the OT, you will often come across God confirming his oaths in one chapter then in another confirms the same oath again. Often with the use of personal pro-nouns, I, involved up to three times in succession! (Hebrews 6:13-18)

Genesis Jacob wrestled

With the evidence noted above now note Genesis 32:1-2: with the words identified and their meanings: Jacob went on his way, and the angels (Maleks - Messengers) of God (Elohim) met him. 2 And when Jacob saw them he said, "This is God's (Elohim) camp!" So he called the name of that place Mahanaim. (Meaning - two camps, or two host, or two tents)

The word Mahanaim means two camps, two tents, two host so two Host are identified! So the two Maleks Jacob saw was a theophany of both the Son and Holy Spirit. Jacob named the place appropriately. He soon went to cross the river and met one of the two host there in a theophany of a man. He wrestled with him.

Now back to Gen 32:30: Jacob stated what about the Malek/Messenger he wrestled? - that he was God. He wrestled and Lived! (Side notes: Psalms 27:8; Isa 55:6,7)

How do we know it was Jesus many clues such as John 1:1,2,3,4,14 and all the places where Jesus says come to him and find life in all the various ways he said. Some here: John 6:57, John 11:25, John 14:19
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So in theory couldn't the angel who engaged Jacob have also been the Spirit taking human form?

God is Spirit or God's essence of being is indeed Spirit is what Jesus and the bible teaches about God and what God says about himself as there being none like himself.

So, in a theophany, the Son came forth form God and and Yes, God's Spirit nature of the Son did wrestle with Jacob in the form of a man...
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