Evidence for God from Science

Can someone explain this? It means that anyone who has blasphemed against God can not be forgiven. (Matthew 12:31-32)

I could be wrong, I am not a Bible scholar, or well versed, but I think (personally) its about rejecting Christ, the HS, God. Openly.

IceMobster wrote:Can someone explain this? It means that anyone who has blasphemed against God can not be forgiven. (Matthew 12:31-32)

I think it just means blasphemy against the HS is unforgivable.

JurassicTerrorist wrote:

IceMobster wrote:Can someone explain this? It means that anyone who has blasphemed against God can not be forgiven. (<a target="_blank" data-purpose="bible-reference" data-version="nasb95" data-reference="Matt 12.31-32" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matt%2012.31-32" class="rtBibleRef">Matthew 12:31-32</a>)

I think it just means blasphemy against the HS is unforgivable.

Holy Spirit = Jesus Christ = God. So, what is your point?

Storyteller wrote:I could be wrong, I am not a Bible scholar, or well versed, but I think (personally) its about rejecting Christ, the HS, God. Openly.

Exactly. Once you reject God, you are gone for good. How come are those who once rejected Christ allowed to come back to the Church? Even if you do accept Christ and repent, you are not forgiven, therefore you shall find not salvation.

IceLobster wrote:
Exactly. Once you reject God, you are gone for good. How come are those who once rejected Christ allowed to come back to the Church? Even if you do accept Christ and repent, you are not forgiven, therefore you shall find not salvation.

Where on earth are you getting this from?

Salvation is based on Grace, through faith in Christ. Someone can certainly reject God, then believe in Christ and be saved.

Mobster,

I hope you were asking the above, not asserting. You have no scriptural basis for anything in that paragraph.

RickD wrote:

IceLobster wrote:
Exactly. Once you reject God, you are gone for good. How come are those who once rejected Christ allowed to come back to the Church? Even if you do accept Christ and repent, you are not forgiven, therefore you shall find not salvation.

Where on earth are you getting this from?

Salvation is based on Grace, through faith in Christ. Someone can certainly reject God, then believe in Christ and be saved.

Mobster,

I hope you were asking the above, not asserting. You have no scriptural basis for anything in that paragraph.

Ditto. That's just ridiculous . . . those who rejected Christ can never come back. Hello . . . PETER ANYONE?!?

Anyway, as to the OP, JT is right. All it means is that blasphemy of the HS won't be forgiven. That doesn't mean that those who commit(ted) it aren't (weren't) saved. It just means that sin will be held against them. They'll have to give an account for it. Nothing more, nothing less.

But further, whether it can even be committed today is an open question. In context, the Pharisees were accusing Jesus of working by the power of Satan. So unless Jesus is walking around today and someone accuses Him of working via Satan, I'm not totally sure we are dealing with the same thing. Maybe we can say that if someone accuses the miraculous work of a Christian to be done by Satan's power would could say that they've blasphemed the HS, but I hope you see my hesitancy in such an interpretation. It's the same hesitancy I have with WWJD type things. Uhm . . . you and I aren't Jesus. So . . . yeah.

My point is just that people are way too lose with this charge, and then they're too severe on what it means. Neither the context nor the actual words themselves allow us to claim it means anything like what people talk about. *shrug*

RickD wrote:

IceLobster wrote:
Exactly. Once you reject God, you are gone for good. How come are those who once rejected Christ allowed to come back to the Church? Even if you do accept Christ and repent, you are not forgiven, therefore you shall find not salvation.

Where on earth are you getting this from?

Salvation is based on Grace, through faith in Christ. Someone can certainly reject God, then believe in Christ and be saved.

Mobster,

I hope you were asking the above, not asserting. You have no scriptural basis for anything in that paragraph.

The verse says that the one who has or is blaspheming will not be forgiven which contradicts what you two are saying...

Jac3510 wrote:

RickD wrote:

IceLobster wrote:
Exactly. Once you reject God, you are gone for good. How come are those who once rejected Christ allowed to come back to the Church? Even if you do accept Christ and repent, you are not forgiven, therefore you shall find not salvation.

Where on earth are you getting this from?

Salvation is based on Grace, through faith in Christ. Someone can certainly reject God, then believe in Christ and be saved.

Mobster,

I hope you were asking the above, not asserting. You have no scriptural basis for anything in that paragraph.

Ditto. That's just ridiculous . . . those who rejected Christ can never come back. Hello . . . PETER ANYONE?!?

Anyway, as to the OP, JT is right. All it means is that blasphemy of the HS won't be forgiven. That doesn't mean that those who commit(ted) it aren't (weren't) saved. It just means that sin will be held against them. They'll have to give an account for it. Nothing more, nothing less.

But further, whether it can even be committed today is an open question. In context, the Pharisees were accusing Jesus of working by the power of Satan. So unless Jesus is walking around today and someone accuses Him of working via Satan, I'm not totally sure we are dealing with the same thing. Maybe we can say that if someone accuses the miraculous work of a Christian to be done by Satan's power would could say that they've blasphemed the HS, but I hope you see my hesitancy in such an interpretation. It's the same hesitancy I have with WWJD type things. Uhm . . . you and I aren't Jesus. So . . . yeah.

My point is just that people are way too lose with this charge, and then they're too severe on what it means. Neither the context nor the actual words themselves allow us to claim it means anything like what people talk about. *shrug*

I understood nothing... What is OP and WWJD?

OP - "original post" and "WWJD" - "what would Jesus do"

And the verse doesn't contradict what we're saying. It contradicts something you say it means that it doesn't say. You are saying it means "whoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit has been rejected by God and cannot be saved." But that isn't what it says.

Affirm what the text says, ice. Not what you say it means.

Exactly. Once you reject God, you are gone for good. How come are those who once rejected Christ allowed to come back to the Church? Even if you do accept Christ and repent, you are not forgiven, therefore you shall find not salvation.

first IM, this is completely devoid of Christian Theology. If you've heard it from two of the best sources from a Protestant pov and now from a Catholic, chances are you've made a mistake. it's not the end of the world brother, but it is the end of the conversation if you don't find reference material supporting this claim.

Holy Spirit = Jesus Christ = God. So, what is your point?

three separate but equal persons of God. The blasphemy of which they speak is, if i'm correct, is tied to the belief that the miracles of Jesus in the NT were attributed to Satan, demonic forces, not that of the Holy Spirit. that is unforgivable. and if you think about it, it's an unforgiveness that is concluded on a personal mistake, never really knowing if His miracles are of Satan or the HS but attributing their power incorrectly, willfully is sin at it's worst.

The context seems clear:

31 “aTherefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32 “aWhoever 1speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever 1speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in bthis age or in the age to come.

Blasphemy against even the Son of man will be forgiven, any sin will be forgiven ( if there is repentance of course).
BUT to Blasphemy the HS is an unforgivable sin.

If Jesus is speaking of Himself as the Son of Man ( as He did many times) then that means that those that blasphemy Him will be forgiven.
BUT not those that blasphemy the HS.

IMO:
Jesus is making a statement about those that the HS comes to them, those that KNOW Christ via the HS AND reject ( blasphemy) Christ and The HS.

When we are given the HS we KNOW that Christ is salvation, that He is the Word of God, Son of God, Lord and Saviour.
There is NO doubt about THAT because the HS reveals it to Us.
So, to REJECT Christ is to reject revelation of the HS, to reject the HS KNOWING very well what that means.
As such, there will be no forgiveness given to those that reject the HS.
In short, those that reject God's saving grace will not be forgiven, not now, not in the age to come.
As for being saved, as with all things of salvation, I leave that to God.

Paul, i think we're really close here.

you've said;
Jesus is making a statement about those that the HS comes to them, those that KNOW Christ via the HS AND reject ( blasphemy) Christ and The HS.


and i'm saying;
Blaspheming the Spirit is thus a failure to repent and ally oneself with Jesus. Since this can always be done during one's life , blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a final refusal to repent, or final impenitence, following Augustine and a whole host of subsequent moral theologians, is that the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is final impenitence. http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/UNFORGIV.htm

i think both are pointing to the rejection of the HS during life and continuing in to the afterlife. as you say, the HS comes to to them, whether they recognize Him or not, and outright reject His imploring mercy and forgiveness.

i know God can do anything, but how do you forgive someone who has free will who does not want forgiven ?

I`ve been pondering again

God and Christ, to a certain extent are external influences on us, whereas the Holy Spirit, is internal, it abides within us.
So, rejecting God, or Christ, I think could be easier than rejecting the HS. You feel the HS.

To actually feel and know the Holy Spirit and yet still reject Him is unforgiveable, that`s what I think this passage means. Not doubt, question but reject openly and knowingly, that`s blasphemy.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Paul, i think we're really close here.

you've said;
Jesus is making a statement about those that the HS comes to them, those that KNOW Christ via the HS AND reject ( blasphemy) Christ and The HS.


and i'm saying;
Blaspheming the Spirit is thus a failure to repent and ally oneself with Jesus. Since this can always be done during one's life , blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a final refusal to repent, or final impenitence, following Augustine and a whole host of subsequent moral theologians, is that the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is final impenitence. http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/UNFORGIV.htm

i think both are pointing to the rejection of the HS during life and continuing in to the afterlife. as you say, the HS comes to to them, whether they recognize Him or not, and outright reject His imploring mercy and forgiveness.

i know God can do anything, but how do you forgive someone who has free will who does not want forgiven ?

Indeed, or how does one forgive a person that believes there is nothing to forgive or doesn't even believe in forgiveness?

Indeed, or how does one forgive a person that believes there is nothing to forgive or doesn't even believe in forgiveness?

exactly !