Evidence for God from Science

is a documentary (once up for an Academy Award) available on Netfix disc or Instant Viewing that will either make you get down on your knees and thank the lord or make you cringe in disgust. Other than pointing out a few particulars, there's no commentary of any kind, leaving you free to make of it what you will.

"Storyline

Jesus Camp follows several young children as they prepare to attend a summer camp where the kids will get their daily dose of evangelical Christianity. Becky Fischer works at the camp, which is named Kids on Fire. Through interviews with Fischer, the children, and others, Jesus Camp illustrates the unswerving belief of the faithful. A housewife and homeschooling mother tells her son that creationism has all the answers. Footage from inside the camp shows young children weeping and wailing as they promise to stop their sinning. Child after child is driven to tears. Juxtapose these scenes with clips from a more moderate Christian radio host (who is appalled by such tactics), and Jesus Camp seems to pose a clear question: are these children being brainwashed?"
source


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Oh boy.
I will have to watch the whole thing, it's difficult to know only watching a preview of the documentary. In that being said it sent chills down my spine and not of the good variety. I would never expose my children to this. I did experience this to some extent as a kid growing up, but only briefly. I did have exposure to different denominations though, I went to a Catholic school and attended Church of England Sunday school and youth group that involved none of the shenanigans seen on here. When I would visit with my nan on school holidays I would attend church with her at the Assembly of God, and I did attend a 'revival'. Here I witnessed this kind of thing, crying, jumping up and down, thrashing on the floor, extremely over the top preaching, slaying in the spirit, people laughing hysterically.
As a kid it scared me, I thought they were freakin nuts. I remember one time being taken up the front to get slain in the spirit. When I didn't fall on cue, I was pushed. Even as a kid I knew something was wrong, it's called mass hysteria.
I was lucky that I wasn't brought up in that kind of church and exposed to it regularly.

I'm going to watch the full doco before I judge too harshly. I actually watched a doco yesterday about religious fundamentalism and extremism. It wasn't focused on any particular religion and it was very interesting and exposed some real dangers that can occur within a society. I think Jesus camp would tie in with what I watched, but I'll see once I watch it in full.
Thanks for posting it Audacity, you ask a good question re; does this border on brainwashing, or perhaps not border but straight up is.
There is this thing within Christianity the WWJD, what would Jesus do. I don't really like this line of thinking, it can be very subjective although I have asked myself the question but I prefer WDJD, what did Jesus do. He certainly never preached or taught with hysteria or mania but peacefully and really reserved compared to this. He just spoke to the people and the children who gathered around him. There was no shouting and jumping up and down and in your face preaching.

Okay, I've just watched 12 minutes in and it's brainwashing and it's bloody disgusting. I have an extremely hard time watching that, it honestly makes me want to cry, poor kids. Whatever is going on because it's something is not from God and that woman is an idiot.
Watching those children speaking in tongues was extremely disturbing. When it walks like a duck, quacks like duck and looks like a duck, it's a duck. Pentecostal churches are a cult, I have thought this for some time.
I'm disgusted.
This branch of Christianty which is huge, both here and in the US is a disgrace and a disgrace to the name of Christ. This right here is why what is considered the 'church' when so many are made up of, bible bashing, tounge ranting, thrashing, yelling and all kinds of stupidity is why I distance myself from mainstream Christianty because when this is considered mainstream, which it is, place me well and truly on the fringes.

This is pure propaganda and not a refection of true Christianity.

There are plenty of whack jobs out there in Christendom teaching bad stuff and things in a wrong manner and tone and in no way reflects all Christendom. Sadly such that do, are accepted as spokesmen for all Christians.

Is murder of unborn babies evil - yes. Especially for selling baby parts and funding certain political party by means of lobbyist favors.

The real issue is sex and the consequences for have sex and the inability to teach on how to control ones passions, as well as the glorification of sexual immortality as the new good and how easy it is to flush the result of sex down the drain and make a hefty profit from it too. Sex is big business in movies and TV books, internet, medical procedures and diseases, and addictions etc and etc. There is money to made in such human environment.

The above video was stupid and simply done to enforce the principle of ridicule to silence anyone who does not condone and support the sexual social-political-industrial complex. It is in no way representative of all Christianity and those that think it does need counseling and meds...

Have I known folks like those teaching in the video - yes and they do not last long...because the make a mockery of Jesus by misrepresentation of truth, they are corrected. They need meds and counseling too...

Folks please do not fall for leftist propaganda...

Those folks that made the video and the one that posted it here - did so by their own free will.

If free will did not exist, then we all would think the same way and answer all multiple choice question with the same answer. We do not. in fact Hosea 8:4 has God stating this: They have set up kings, but not by Me; They have appointed princes, but I did not know it. With their silver and gold they have made idols for themselves, That they might be cut off.
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B. W. wrote:This is pure propaganda and not a refection of true Christianity.

So what entity or cause do you think this "propaganda" is suppose to aid?

There are plenty of whack jobs out there in Christendom teaching bad stuff and things in a wrong manner and tone and in no way reflects all Christendom. Sadly such that do, are accepted as spokesmen for all Christians.

By whom? Who is accepting them as spokesmen for all Christians?

The real issue is sex and the consequences for have sex and the inability to teach on how to control ones passions, as well as the glorification of sexual immortality as the new good and how easy it is to flush the result of sex down the drain and make a hefty profit from it too.

SEX? Where did this come from?

Sex is big business in movies and TV books, internet, medical procedures and diseases, and addictions etc and etc. There is money to made in such human environment.

So what?

The above video was stupid and simply done to enforce the principle of ridicule to silence anyone who does not condone and support the sexual social-political-industrial complex. It is in no way representative of all Christianity and those that think it does need counseling and meds...

Truthfully, it appears you're a bit hung up on the subject of sex. It's relevance to the video is zilch.

Folks please do not fall for leftist propaganda...

Leftist, in what respect?

Those folks that made the video and the one that posted it here - did so by their own free will.

Your point being . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ?

If free will did not exist, then we all would think the same way and answer all multiple choice question with the same answer. We do not. in fact Hosea 8:4 has God stating this: They have set up kings, but not by Me; They have appointed princes, but I did not know it. With their silver and gold they have made idols for themselves, That they might be cut off.

Then you have a poor understanding of how the world works. A lack of freewill does not mean that "we all would think the same way and answer all multiple choice question with the same answer." Never having ever seen this claim before, I have to believe it's something you've cooked up yourself. Might want to go back to the kitchen, B. W., and re-think it.

B. W. wrote:This is pure propaganda and not a refection of true Christianity.

There are plenty of whack jobs out there in Christendom teaching bad stuff and things in a wrong manner and tone and in no way reflects all Christendom. Sadly such that do, are accepted as spokesmen for all Christians.

Is murder of unborn babies evil - yes. Especially for selling baby parts and funding certain political party by means of lobbyist favors.

The real issue is sex and the consequences for have sex and the inability to teach on how to control ones passions, as well as the glorification of sexual immortality as the new good and how easy it is to flush the result of sex down the drain and make a hefty profit from it too. Sex is big business in movies and TV books, internet, medical procedures and diseases, and addictions etc and etc. There is money to made in such human environment.

The above video was stupid and simply done to enforce the principle of ridicule to silence anyone who does not condone and support the sexual social-political-industrial complex. It is in no way representative of all Christianity and those that think it does need counseling and meds...

Have I known folks like those teaching in the video - yes and they do not last long...because the make a mockery of Jesus by misrepresentation of truth, they are corrected. They need meds and counseling too...

Folks please do not fall for leftist propaganda...

Those folks that made the video and the one that posted it here - did so by their own free will.

If free will did not exist, then we all would think the same way and answer all multiple choice question with the same answer. We do not. in fact Hosea 8:4 has God stating this: They have set up kings, but not by Me; They have appointed princes, but I did not know it. With their silver and gold they have made idols for themselves, That they might be cut off.
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B.W you cannot just dismiss this as leftist propaganda without looking further into the issue. Docos can have an agenda , this one claims ambiguity. I probably disagree. But there was no commentary and it just videotaped the events, sure editing can be persuasive but Becky Fischer the woman in this video agreed to the doco being shot, agreed to the final cut and admits that with all the negative publicity her ministry has grown. She is now an international spokesperson for her growing ministry KIMI. Kids in ministry international.
That focuses on the 'supernatural' ministry on children
She now has international audiences around the world.

That promote, integrate and recreate this kind of ministry to children.
Audacity was quite right when he said it would either ignite or disgust. It has done both but the issue of this trend growing within Christianity is more the issue.
Blowing it off as nothing more than propaganda when this ministry is growing within our midst is naive and placing some ill conceived war on the so called political left as more pressing and important than the welfare of our youth.

Stats show that the Pentecostal church is the fastest growing Christian denomination worldwide and within America. The trend being whilst other denominations are having reductions in members the Penetcostal churches are growing.
They are representing the Christian community and we owe it to God to not beat our chest and proclaim error but to nip this in the bud. Trying to turn this into a leftard agenda using your words, whatever that means is not taking it by the balls and acknowledging the error that exists within our ranks.
Quit blaming the negative representation of these churches on the left and place it where it belongs on a disturbing, anti biblical church. It may not look good for PR but the same church you kind of condemn has millions of members within the US, majority claim to be evangelical, they claim to want to 'take back America' and no distinction has been made politically of this push for the 'one nation under God'. These Pentecostals have been grafted into the mainstream despite theological differences for a higher political agenda.
The Christian Right.
You hold hands with them everyday.
They are extreme in numbers and in wealth and in anti biblical theology.
But they make up a third of the movement and those numbers are growing and are predicted by several polls to be a majority within the next 20 years.

On a personal note, I know it's occurring cause I've seen it. I was that child being pushed to be slain in the spirit. I went to a revivals and saw the hysteria.

When blokes like Audacity expose it, we owe it to him and ourselves to be honest.
Yes, it's scary. It's unbiblical. It's not okay.
When its perpetrated against children it's psychological abuse.
It's just bloody wrong.
We need to have a united stance against it and not let politics get in the way but hold onto an upmost, clear, unwavering stance of protecting our children and doctrine instead of holding hands with what we know is wrong.


The Pentecostal churches are mainstream, and they are growing, they make up a third of the evangelical movement. What was once frowned upon is now being politically manoeuvred.
This kind of mania is absolutely wrong.
http://youtu.be/nVG98f8NL5g

We owe it to Audacity and others to openly admit it's just crazy, that is not a representation of Christ. Any attempt to justify it by placing blame on the 'left' is a cop out. Let's have the balls to admit there are those within our camp that are just flat out wrong,

mel wrote:
We owe it to Audacity and others to openly admit it's just crazy, that is not a representation of Christ. Any attempt to justify it by placing blame on the 'left' is a cop out. Let's have the balls to admit there are those within our camp that are just flat out wrong,

There's something strangely hilarious about a woman saying that we ( including herself), should have the balls to do something.



Mel,

I hope you're not lumping all of Pentecostal believers into this lunacy. This is something that is not common among the majority of Pentecostal churches, at least in my area. And anyone who is familiar with my views on mainstream Pentecostal beliefs, knows I strongly disagree with a lot of what they believe.

This is almost as bad as cross-fit and boot camps !
LOL !

Not to make light of this but this isn't anything new and pretty much any ideology ( not just religion) has its fringe elements and cults.

The issue of cultic brainwashing is a very real issue and even more so when you realise the DEGREE that is used by special interest groups in every facet of society it seems.

Indcotrination at early ages is something that has been used across the globe by all segments of society.

This videos are horrific and rightly so and what is even more horrific isnt videos like these that, for outsiders like us, are easy to see as being bad, THE REAL problem is the subtle indoctrination that children are being put through everyday by the mainstream media and education system that propagates far worse things than this.

Edited because I know this guy is fishing for quotes.

Hortator wrote:Nice strategy, op. Upset your opponent, fluster them so they can't think straight, then counter. It's like a dirty street fight, full of cheap shots to the eyes, loud insults about your sister's creaky bed, and kicks below the belt. Well done. Outstanding.

I'm not dumb enough to fall for watching this crap. Good bait, but it's too obvious bait.

I'm sure you mean to make sense here, but you don't. Perhaps you'd like to try clarifying, if you can . . . . . . . . or not.


.

Oh, the audacity! I have a feeling you kind of put this here at least in part for my reaction Aud?
I believe I watched this in the past, and while quite full on, I can relate to some extreme charismatic elements, just not the pushy and more "militant" woman leader if you will.

Churches run camps, that's normal. Holy Spirit is often central and there can be a focus upon baptising children in the Spirit, which is really just a Christian Pentecostal thing similar to water baptism. So those elements, including talking in tongues which is meant to be a "gift" received after being baptised in the Spirit, I don't see much oddness to than other religious experiences or practices if you will.

Some churches I was familiar with growing up (and we're talking probably 8 and 11 years old), the gifts of the Spirit are expected as common place. They did have camps. None with a woman leading it who was as full on as that lady in the Jesus Camp video. Usually, run by teenagers along side a youth pastor or two.

So I attended two camps. The first one, there was baptisim and Spirit and talking in tongues. However, most of us when back in our cabins thought it a joke, making up gibberish and saying it meant this or that. This, had a lasting effect on me, to the point I remember it to this day around 30 years later. My best friend and I saw it as silly. You know, it could be brainwashing if the woman didn't seriously believe what she taught, and you know, I'm sure she believes every word. Many of those children I'm sure will be put off many of these Christian beliefs later in life once they mature in adults and start the critical reflective stage (which I normally see as around 17-25 years perhaps)?

The thing is though, this isn't just a far out Christian thing.
Rather it is a human issue. We all participate and share in such within our societies.
For us to think we think so clearly and objectively that we're not brainwashed and the like ourselves or highly influenced here and there to varying degrees -- well, that's foolishness imho.

There's a bigger picture to be seen that extends outside of the Jesus Camp that it applies to greater society.
That is, all of us are actually brainwashed to some extent and our governments, government run education systems, the media and the like saturates us from the moment we are birthed and arrive in the world.

What's scary isn't really that video.
It's seeing that video and realising that such isn't restricted to pocket groups, but rather on a national scale, even international, people have become a part of "a collective" if you will.
Entire blankets pulled over societies and people who normally live in first world conditions.

Whether that's the government and its "educational" institutions, money has been setup to run the world and we need to conform by getting a job and house and looking after ourselves and/or family. I mean, it's the framework we work within, and perhaps an impossible one to break unless one just stops, turns sideways, and swims out of the current.

To those who do break free, perhaps missionaries and those like Mother Teresa, or those who dedicate their life forsaking their societies to help in this or that country with the poor and victims of war. Even perhaps soldiers, who get a glimpse outside the bubble that our Western societies love to create around us -- a bubble of complacency, where our world caves in the moment we can't find a parking space, receive a parking ticket or get cut off in traffic.

Yet, we can be so shallow because our society has told us from the moment we are born that this is how we ought to live our lives. We don't know anything else and so just conform the the social frameworks that the governments have set in place. We ought to strive to receive an education so that we can get a good job. Then we earn money, perhaps have a family (though that's going out the window) now, settles down and eventually retire hopefully in a holiday house somewhere.

To think that these extreme types of Christians are somehow unique in the whole entire ultra-charismatic Pentecostal culture, is well... blinding yourself to the reality that in many ways and on many levels, we have been and our children are being indoctrinated into our societies. For better or worse, we all see that on some level I'm sure.

We all struggle to see through the fog of social structures, to the reality of the real world. These are patterns that are easy and comfortable for us to just fall into, because we're indoctrinated into them our whole lives. To break the mould makes us extremely uncomfortable and so we often stay put.

There really is nothing to gloat over here, as though this is just a Christian issue alone with overly charismatic types.

• "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." - Romans 12:2

Hortator wrote:Nice strategy, op. Upset your opponent, fluster them so they can't think straight, then counter. It's like a dirty street fight, full of cheap shots to the eyes, loud insults about your sister's creaky bed, and kicks below the belt. Well done. Outstanding.

I'm not dumb enough to fall for watching this crap. Good bait, but it's too obvious bait.

Really? Just let him be, lol. He may not have the same views on the topic as you, and is pointing out on something bad concerning your religion but there is no need to run into such conclusions...

Kurieuo wrote:.

Beautifully concluded and compared with the indoctrination and framework.

Much like Tolkien's jail, but on a material level, huh?

Kurieuo wrote:Oh, the audacity! I have a feeling you kind of put this here at least in part for my reaction Aud?

Not you personally, but people like you and those not like you. Because Christianity is such a diverse religion, ranging from the very liberal to the very conservative, I was looking for representative reactions. I think Melanie here pretty much reflects the reaction of the former, and Hortator the later (as I think I understand him).

What's scary isn't really that video.
It's seeing that video and realising that such isn't restricted to pocket groups, but rather on a national scale, even international, people have become a part of "a collective" if you will.
Entire blankets pulled over societies and people who normally live in first world conditions.

Gotta disagree with you here. While you're right in observing that "all of us are actually brainwashed to some extent and our governments, government run education systems,"---taking "brainwashing" at its most broadest meaning, I see a significant difference in the object of the brainwashing here: children.
In the early days of English common law immaturity excused criminal liability to various extents. Those under seven were deemed to lack the mental capacity to commit crimes, and the law presumed incapacity for those between seven and fourteen. This presumption was strong at age seven, but gradually weakened until it just about disappeared at age fourteen. When the States adopted this reasoning many modified it to various extents. However, the reasoning remained: children were not regarded as having the full mental capacity of adults. And, of course, this isn't only applicable in matters of law, but other areas as well. One of these is the character of children. Children are super-susceptible to being manipulated. So, while parents are expected to inculcate their children with their values, standards, religion, etc., it isn't expected that they do it with fear, or bring their children to such emotional distress they break out in tears.


....................................Sobbing kids and kids not yet out of first grade


The strategy in the video wasn't one of education, but abusive indoctrination that played on the emotions of the children. Young children. Some well under the age of seven. No matter what the subject of the hour, it appears the ploy is to get them riled up, often chanting in unison. THIS is brainwashing; the brainwashing of children. And it's one of the reasons the documentary has won awards and was up for an Academy Award. Its subject matter is shocking. Shocking because it's a blatant abuse of children in the name of good.

And you are absolutely right in saying "This kind of mania is absolutely wrong." But is this representative of Christianity? Not in the least; however, it obviously does go on, and with the blessings of quite a few people it appears.

Want to convince kids that your religion is better than any other then explain why. Don't beat it into them. They don't deserve the abuse. Nobody does, not even adults.

Aud, I'm going to re-watch the film before commented re: my beliefs on it.
I'll give an honest take, but I do indeed consider these people as largely Christian, and therefore representative of a segment within Christianity. In a way, I kind of see it like two competing Christian theologies:

1) Heart and experience (you must have "faith" to see God and reason won't get you there), and
2) Mind and reason ("faith" is based upon evidence and we should nurture our minds).

Pentecostals focus very much on the experience, and place on a pedestal "experiencing the Holy Spirit". They can be Catholic too, but I'm only familiar with Evangelical and those in Australia at that. US seems to take things always to whole new levels of extreme.

Nonetheless, by Evangelical I refer to those denominations who value Scripture as the inerrant word of God. Within that, there is differentiation to be made. Pentecostals allowing for rhemas (e.g., randomly flicking open a Bible and what you read is considered a personal revelation from God) versus applying more structured methods of interpretation as found in theology.

If you don't mind answering, I'd be interested in know what your own personal experience with Christians has been? Any particular denominations you've been around more, how you perceive them (i.e., largely wacko or actually some quite intelligent), and the like?

Kurieuo wrote:If you don't mind answering, I'd be interested in know what your own personal experience with Christians has been? Any particular denominations you've been around more, how you perceive them (i.e., largely wacko or actually some quite intelligent), and the like?

I told you of my personal experience with Christianity in our "Private messages" exchange, and this is as far as I will go. I will say, however, that as a guest I did go to a Catholic Pontifical Solemn High Mass, as I recall its name.