Evidence for God from Science

We've had discussions on the topic of Lordship Salvation before. I ran across this post on Carm.org - it describes it a little differently:

https://carm.org/what-is-lordship-salva ... t-biblical

It almost hints at a Calvinist type belief, for those whom might embrace it.

Philip wrote:We've had discussions on the topic of Lordship Salvation before. I ran across this post on Carm.org - it describes it a little differently:

https://carm.org/what-is-lordship-salva ... t-biblical

It almost hints at a Calvinist type belief, for those whom might embrace it.

I am not following: Should not Jesus be Lord?

Php 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NASB

Saying Jesus is Lord and one's savior is not a sin.

Are people looking at the word Lord to mean have authority over another as in the western mindset?

The Hebrew concept and meaning for Lord is a bit different but rather stresses one who provides, protects, one who comes alongside to aide/assist. Since that is so, one respects and obeys such proven authority and live their lives wholly to such a Lord. Note these verses point out he Hebraic meaning of Lord: Mat 20:25,26 and John 13:14,15

So Jesus gave his life to save me, provides the Holy Spirit for aid, and for that to call him My Lord is now deemed aberrant doctrine?

I do not get it?

Next as for repentance, did not Jesus have something to say about repentance?

Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." NASB

Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." NASB

Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." NASB

Acts 26:20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. NASB

Repentance means change of mind but one can change their mind and not repent too. A true change of mind involves a change in direction too. In the Christian sense this is not works to keep saved, or stay saved, or be saved. It involves the Lord of Glory, coming to die in our place, save us, whom, none deserve saving, gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit to seal us his forever; then, how can we not say, "He is my Lord and my savior."

Yes, I get it that people abuse this and can twist it into a works plus salvation thing but the principle truth is that one is saved because Jesus is LORD! In trying to explain things we can make a mess out of things.

Becoming born again should have some sort of effect upon a person - a change in direction by the Holy Spirit guidance system at least. Do you understand my drift?

All too often we get caught up in word wars and without realizing what we are doing. Many people who help led folks to Christ will ask a person this: do you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior? They do not push or condone a Lordship works salvation because they ask this. All I ask is judge with righteous judgment God gives freely before jumping on someone.
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About lordship salvation:http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html

John MacArthur, whose book The Gospel According to Jesus lays out the case for lordship salvation, summarizes the teaching this way: “The gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ’s authority.” In other words, a sinner who refuses to repent is not saved, for he cannot cling to his sin and the Savior at the same time. And a sinner who rejects Christ’s authority in his life does not have saving faith, for true faith encompasses a surrender to God. Thus, the gospel requires more than making an intellectual decision or mouthing a prayer; the gospel message is a call to discipleship. The sheep will follow their Shepherd in submissive obedience.

Basically, it means that one must not only believe Jesus Christ is Lord(God), which of course is biblical, but one MUST hold that Christ is Lord of one's life in order to be saved. Or, one cannot cling to sin, and be saved.

And yes, Lordship Salvation and Calvinism go hand in hand. John MacArthur is a Lordship Salvation adherent and a strict Calvinist.

Here's a great link describing Lordship Salvation:
http://faithalone.org/magazine/y2006/06so1.html

RickD wrote:Here's a great link describing Lordship Salvation:
http://faithalone.org/magazine/y2006/06so1.html

Thanks Rick, an article made for me, Lordship Salvation for Dummies!

Now I'ze can can go git me'z a Squirrel Head hare kut like yose...

Back to reality, very good article that explains it well.
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My son suddenly pulled up a YouTube video and was listening to this pastor (Paul Washer, a reformed Baptist) - which got me to thinking about the "Lordship" teachings. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncEhCvrVgQ Whenever you see a guy with rat-at-tat-tat bullet points emphatically and ever-louder proclaimed, be wary. To me, he makes people 1) doubt their salvation; 2) Makes salvation seem like some very difficult to obtain thing (for the sinner); 3) Is loading people down with machine-gun proclamations of righteous behavior that are supposed proofs of their salvation. Of course, also, he's reformed, and keeps referring to "regeneration" and "repentance."

He totally ignores the patient, loving reprimands of those in churches that Paul addresses as brothers and sisters, and yet who are practicing all manner of sin. By Washer's standards, these could not possibly be sinners. Some of what Washer says is true - the wide belief that someone has said a "magic prayer" and their good to go. But he does a very poor detailing of the nuances involved, and then wants to use proof of the real deal is a person's behavior. He also keeps referring to the "depravity" of man - as if people cannot respond to the Gospel, even if they wanted to. Or they CAN'T want to because God has not yet "regenerated" them. God help the poor soul in this man's church who is caught in some significantly considered sin.

Here's a good analysis of Washer's message: http://expreacherman.com/2011/03/24/pau ... epentance/

What do you think - you Christians here?

Philip wrote:
It almost hints at a Calvinist type belief, for those whom might embrace it.

Yeah it's almost required in Calvinist churches and VERY prevalent in others.

It amounts to a salvation-by-works gospel, and is closer to Mormon soteriology than Biblical soteriology - to the point that BYU used John MacArthur's book on it as a textbookto increase the student's faith in Mormonism

The basics of what's wrong here:

The "Dummies" article really boiled it down.

These statements popped out at me:

"No person who holds to Lordship Salvation can say that John 3:16, 5:24, or 6:47 contains enough information for a person to be saved, because these verses do not mention commitment, obedience, or perseverance. The insistence on commitment, obedience, and perseverance as conditions for kingdom entrance makes the Lordship Salvation gospel a works salvation gospel. "

"What I am saying is that if a person is saved under Lordship Salvation teaching, it is because they reject most of what the Lordship Salvation person told them. Lordship Salvation garbles the gospel and the more it is garbled, the less likely it is that a person can grasp and believe the true gospel."

Here's how I see the "Lordship" issue. Yes, I believe you must recognize Jesus is Lord - as He is most certainly IS Lord - and that means The Lord described in Scripture. You must sincerely, in your heart and mind, desire to follow Him - and you are trusting Him to save you. But MAKING Jesus Lord of your LIFE, is a life-long process of sanctification and learning/of Him teaching and guiding you how to do so. And YOU, in your own power, cannot do this. Both salvation and the process of learning to make Jesus Lord of your life are both God's works. But, for salvation to be possible, your heart and mind must want Jesus to save you, and you must ask Him to do so. Salvation is SO simple a child can be saved, through simple faith in Christ - but how is that possible, according to so many pushing distorted teachings? Salvation LEADS to/insures repentance - else, it would be a work one would have to do in their own power, and BEFORE salvation - a requirement of work.

OK, one IS committing themselves to follow Christ - but what does that mean? At the moment of salvation, a person is saved, in the midst of their sins. All they really know is who Jesus is, what He's done for them, and they have faith that He can and will save them. But do they yet truly know the ever-deeper depth of commitment God will move them toward? Not at the moment of salvation. Does a person, at the point of salvation, or immediately before, understand the COST their commitment will bring them? No! They know only simple things: They know Jesus is God, they know He died for them, and they know they desire and believe He will save them. And He will. But they are BABIES in the Lord, commitment, cost, how they will persevere - they're, at that point, only trusting Jesus for His provision for things they can't know or do for themselves. Christians are GOD's works.

Seems to me, that God makes salvation easy, but man and bad teachers make it seem very complex and hard, and people fearfully uncertain that they will make it to Heaven. OR, they make salvation like some meaningless checking off of boxes in a Four Spiritual Laws pamphlet - which Lordship Salvation is the other extreme of. All of the "isms" are one extreme or another. Calvinism is one bookend of the other: Arminianism. They are both unScriptural, in key aspects. One extreme doctrine reactionarily propels another one. And yet, the true Gospel is at the certain center. For all the supposed certainty of extreme doctrines, typically therein lies great insecurity of their adherents, all wondering whether they will be able to "persevere to the end." "What if, in the end, I no longer desire Christ?" So, God's peace, Scripture so often speaks of, remains forever elusive for people living in high anxiety over whether THEY will make the cut, wondering if they will stay faithful to their last breaths. What a terribly insecure way to live!

What do you make of verses like Matthew 10:38, John 8:51, John 14:23, Acts 5:32, Romans 2:13, Hebrews 5:9?

Nicki wrote:What do you make of verses like Matthew 10:38, John 8:51, John 14:23, Acts 5:32, Romans 2:13, Hebrews 5:9?

The problem is Lordship Salvationists assign their own context and meaning to those verses, essentially saying that we are under the law ( and MacArthur flat-out says we must obey the law on his website); yet Paul said, "Christ is the end of the law for all those who believe" (Romans 10:4)

There's context issues with making those verses fit Lordship Salvation (especially Romans 2:13), and I can get into those verses later when I have time; however, suffice to say that when it comes to what is meant by "obedience", look at John 6:40.

Everyone "clings" to sin, it is impossible for anyone to NOT sin.
The very notion that it is possible to be perfect ( which is not sinning) is arrogance and, well, a sin.
One without sin is in no need of salvation from judgment.

This thread has done my heart so much good, you all don't even know. Thank you!

Jac: This thread has done my heart so much good, you all don't even know. Thank you!

Jac, in what ways have the thread impacted you?

Philip wrote:

Jac: This thread has done my heart so much good, you all don't even know. Thank you!

Jac, in what ways has the thread impacted you?

It has distracted him from some heated debates elsewhere.

(just couldn't help myself, Jac)