Obedience

[Nicki]

A quote from Jac3510 from the Lordship Salvation thread -

'The more we stop and trust, the more we'll find Christ working in and through us, starting with our salvation and continuing on to bearing fruit through us. But the moment we try to start doing even a little tiny piece of the work, we mess it all up.'

I'm just wondering, for Jac and anyone else to answer, how does that work out? He'd also mentioned needing to get to know God, which definitely seems a good idea overall, but how do you obey God and do good works without actually doing anything? If you decided to help someone would that be wrong because you'd be trying to do something good yourself? Do you just sort of find yourself doing good without really thinking about it? I can't believe I've been a Christian for (ahem) 25 years or so and I'm asking these questions but I feel I obey God (most of the time) because I want to - I know his way's best, and I believe the Holy Spirit's helping me and has been changing me. Sometimes it's pretty hard though, and sometimes I get it wrong. I've heard before of letting God work through us but how does that actually happen without us doing anything ourselves?

I've spent many, many times with God over the years but I feel as if the most dramatic change in me was straight after I became a Christian at age 12 or so, when I'd spent very little time getting to know God; I changed a couple of aspects of my behaviour which I suddenly felt bad about in a way I hadn't before. I think it was God the Holy Spirit booting me onto the right track, and since then I've been following that path with slight deviations from time to time!

Edit: actually, sometimes not-so-slight deviations. Occasionally I could do with a bit more of that booting

[PaulSacramento]

IMO, when we accept Christ and the HS dwells in Us, the redemptive process is in progress.
Much like the Kingdom of God that IS here and NOT QUITE here ( in progress), we ARE redeemed BUT the redemption is also in progress.
We will still screw up and make mistakes and rebel and go against Him of course. That is human nature.
The HS will speak to us and guide us and strengthen us, as long as we allow Him to do such.
We obey His will because we love Him and we love Him because He loved us before everything.
I don't think we HAVE to work hard to know God, only to open our hearts to Him and that is why, sometimes, children are so much closer to God and adults.
They don't "over think it" they just love Him.
Sometimes we forget that it is, truly, that simple.

[Nicki]

IMO, when we accept Christ and the HS dwells in Us, the redemptive process is in progress.
Much like the Kingdom of God that IS here and NOT QUITE here ( in progress), we ARE redeemed BUT the redemption is also in progress.
We will still screw up and make mistakes and rebel and go against Him of course. That is human nature.
The HS will speak to us and guide us and strengthen us, as long as we allow Him to do such.
We obey His will because we love Him and we love Him because He loved us before everything.
I don't think we HAVE to work hard to know God, only to open our hearts to Him and that is why, sometimes, children are so much closer to God and adults.
They don't "over think it" they just love Him.
Sometimes we forget that it is, truly, that simple.

Very true - I tend to agree with what was said in the LS thread about needing to cooperate with the Spirit (and some saved people don't, so they don't grow) but how do we let God work through us without actually doing anything ourselves?

[B. W.]

A quote from Jac3510 from the Lordship Salvation thread -

'The more we stop and trust, the more we'll find Christ working in and through us, starting with our salvation and continuing on to bearing fruit through us. But the moment we try to start doing even a little tiny piece of the work, we mess it all up.'

I'm just wondering, for Jac and anyone else to answer, how does that work out? He'd also mentioned needing to get to know God, which definitely seems a good idea overall, but how do you obey God and do good works without actually doing anything? If you decided to help someone would that be wrong because you'd be trying to do something good yourself? Do you just sort of find yourself doing good without really thinking about it? I can't believe I've been a Christian for (ahem) 25 years or so and I'm asking these questions but I feel I obey God (most of the time) because I want to - I know his way's best, and I believe the Holy Spirit's helping me and has been changing me. Sometimes it's pretty hard though, and sometimes I get it wrong. I've heard before of letting God work through us but how does that actually happen without us doing anything ourselves?

I've spent many, many times with God over the years but I feel as if the most dramatic change in me was straight after I became a Christian at age 12 or so, when I'd spent very little time getting to know God; I changed a couple of aspects of my behaviour which I suddenly felt bad about in a way I hadn't before. I think it was God the Holy Spirit booting me onto the right track, and since then I've been following that path with slight deviations from time to time!

Edit: actually, sometimes not-so-slight deviations. Occasionally I could do with a bit more of that booting

Hi Nicki,

What you are mentioning is what I call reverse guilt, shame, and wrongful accusations.

A person encounters Jesus, becomes born again, changes happen as described in the Testimonies Thread on this forum:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... f=32&t=589

Such revelation of God's grace changes a person and is God's revelation of grace is omni-personal to each individual. In this way, no person can get the glory, only the Lord.

After this, people report loving God and doing things for him out of a heart born love that makes one obedient to his will. True, we all will not be perfect nor will we perfectly obey 100 percent of the time. Nevertheless, we learn to obey his promptings more and more. One manner of obeying is mentioned in 1 John 1:9 that we all need to do.

Then comes the reverse guilt, shame, and accusatory phase from fellow Christians. If you mention to obey God because you do so out of love because of the revelation that he saved you when you deserved it not, then, one often finds themselves being accused of depending on works, and it is simply forcibly implied that you must cease in doing good because you are depending on works when this is not the case at all.

No amount of explanation can persuade such accusers of the love of God in your heart. One is often labeled a heretic and are demanded that they must cease their works of love, or else for some unexplained reason, God will love you less and even reject you because like to something nice for him. While the believer who is lazy all during life and remains a practicing vile sinner is accepted to heaven and you rejected because you like to obey God and do things to please him as the bible clearly teaches. Makes no sense...

Next, then the brow beating begins... so guilt, shame, and confusion often comes in. What does one do? Obey God. Who saved you? They or the Lord? Who must you love more, they or the Lord?

It is impossible for mortal human being to let the Holy Spirit work through and not do anything. Even when the Holy Spirit says-rest. One rests...is doing something.

I do not know how to explain this any other way other than to use the bible verse as a template which mentions that the Lord sanctify us wholly spirit, soul, and body, 1Th 5:23

If you look at this again you discover the template of learning. Learning rote comes first and helps the soul/mind and body. Our minds are renewed daily by reading the word of God. We learn from him as we read the bible. Insights are revealed. The rote, method of reading, studying the scripture help develop critical thinking and maturity. Your reasoning is exercised. Prayer life develops as well by Rote Learning as well too.

Look at this example, playing the guitar involves the use of he body and mind to know where to place your fingers for chord progressions and scales to make music sound really good. Soon, muscle memory develops and you do not really think about music theory or what note goes with what chord or lead. It comes naturally as though you feel it and naturally flow. That stage is an example of moving from rote learning to learning by the Holy Spirit - you learn to feel and are moved.

First comes the rote phase of learning involving the body and mind learning about the what The Holy Spirit is teaches. Most Christians seem to stay stuck in the rote phase. Always depending on the soul realm of the mind to figure out the deep things of God and stay there, not quite getting it, that there is more the Holy Spirit wants them to learn - to recognize the leading of the Holy Spirit that you become his musician who has learned to trust the leading of the Holy Spirit to play the notes at the right time.

It is those stuck in the rote phase that many have difficulty with as they have not been stretched to the degree to love God because he first loved them and saved them when they deserved it not, Stretched to obey God because they love God enough to walk the 1 John 1:9 way and be changed. Stretched enough to realize that the predestination mentioned by Paul in Eph 1:4,5,13,14 is defined by Paul himself in Romans 8:29. To know that the apostle Paul was a Jewish man who interpreted faith/believe as a 1st century Jew did and not as a western minded renaissance man would.

Stretched to know that we can do things for our heavenly Father because we simply love the Lord and willing to learn what notes to play without being condemned for it. As Jesus said,"He is is for us is not against us - do not forbid such" - Mark 9:38,39,40,41,42

So I suggest a simple evaluation. How has your rote learning been? Where is the Lord taking it with you? Are you learning to depend on him more? Yes, it is a roller coaster at times but what have you learned. Now after you learning curve, where does it lead you and to whom? You feel a pull to learn more about God, then, study his character attributes in the bible, ask in prayer questions that and will arise from this, wait, learn, practice.

We are mortal beings and need the rote lessons so we learn to discern the Spiritual leading of the Holy Spirit. It is all by grace/simple favor from the Lord God who loves you enough not to leave you as you once were. Here it is; it is by God's grace you and I and all Christians can come into an awareness of God's presence. It is a continuously seeking, asking and knocking for such. By such doing, you learn the rote and awaken to his omnipresence, which is indescribable.

If you play or have played a musical instrument, or even mountain climbed, or run, or do some skill, you learned the rote first before you could fly. When it comes to doing things for the Lord, continue to do so and do not let others dissuade you from your personal trainers introductions.

Not sure this makes sense, or even answers you how you would like. But I hope in some way this helps

Blessings
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[PaulSacramento]

IMO, when we accept Christ and the HS dwells in Us, the redemptive process is in progress.
Much like the Kingdom of God that IS here and NOT QUITE here ( in progress), we ARE redeemed BUT the redemption is also in progress.
We will still screw up and make mistakes and rebel and go against Him of course. That is human nature.
The HS will speak to us and guide us and strengthen us, as long as we allow Him to do such.
We obey His will because we love Him and we love Him because He loved us before everything.
I don't think we HAVE to work hard to know God, only to open our hearts to Him and that is why, sometimes, children are so much closer to God and adults.
They don't "over think it" they just love Him.
Sometimes we forget that it is, truly, that simple.

Very true - I tend to agree with what was said in the LS thread about needing to cooperate with the Spirit (and some saved people don't, so they don't grow) but how do we let God work through us without actually doing anything ourselves?

It's a progression. it's development and it is ALL to do with the HS.
See, God works through us when we give ourselves over to Him.
If we "DO" anything it is the act of submission to Him.

After that, what we "do" is what the HS compels us to do AND what we CHOOSE to do so, I guess, the other thing we must "do" is CHOOSE.

Remember free will is sovereign and the HS doesn't over rule it or dominate it, He simply "whispers" His love to us.

[abelcainsbrother]

If we have truly been born again? Then it is the Holy Spirit that changed us into a new creature in Christ Jesus,we did not change ourself like in all other religions. It was the Holy Spirit that changed us and the Holy Spirit stays with us prompting us to do Christ-like things and we will if we yield to the Holy Spirit instead of our flesh,so that no matter what we do thats good it is the work God did through salvation through Jesus.

The difference is we are not doing good works to be saved or justified but by simply following and letting God's Spirit work through us so that nobody can boast. Our good fruit is just the icing on the cake of us being changed by the Holy Spirit into a new creature in Christ Jesus but grace is at the roots of our faith.

The problem becomes when we look at good deeds or things we must do as things we must do so that we can be saved or justified,or for God to hear our prayers,etc and we think our good deeds are saving us,justifying us,etc in God's sight when we have already been justified because of what Christ did for us.

[Nicki]

Then comes the reverse guilt, shame, and accusatory phase from fellow Christians. If you mention to obey God because you do so out of love because of the revelation that he saved you when you deserved it not, then, one often finds themselves being accused of depending on works, and it is simply forcibly implied that you must cease in doing good because you are depending on works when this is not the case at all.

No amount of explanation can persuade such accusers of the love of God in your heart. One is often labeled a heretic and are demanded that they must cease their works of love, or else for some unexplained reason, God will love you less and even reject you because like to something nice for him. While the believer who is lazy all during life and remains a practicing vile sinner is accepted to heaven and you rejected because you like to obey God and do things to please him as the bible clearly teaches. Makes no sense...

Thanks for your post. I don't think I've ever come across that sort of accusation from other Christians before though; there's much more (from sermons and books mostly) about living for God, not taking him for granted but trying to do what he wants us to do, putting others before ourselves, not just talking the talk but walking the walk, and so on and so forth. It all gave me the sense that although we don't need to be perfect we do have to be trying to obey God and not rebelling against him, or else - who knows? I just knew I wanted to stay on God's good side, but sometimes I felt I was living too much for myself. It's only on this forum I've found people who are so adamant that it doesn't matter what we do, we're still saved, and that we must never overestimate the importance of works.

We are mortal beings and need the rote lessons so we learn to discern the Spiritual leading of the Holy Spirit. It is all by grace/simple favor from the Lord God who loves you enough not to leave you as you once were. Here it is; it is by God's grace you and I and all Christians can come into an awareness of God's presence. It is a continuously seeking, asking and knocking for such. By such doing, you learn the rote and awaken to his omnipresence, which is indescribable.

That makes a lot of sense, but for about 18 years I had a daily routine of prayer and Bible reading (I just don't do it so regularly any more) but I don't feel I ever really moved into being led by the Spirit. I often sensed God's presence in but I didn't think he was saying anything to me - beyond what was in his word.

[Nicki]

IMO, when we accept Christ and the HS dwells in Us, the redemptive process is in progress.
Much like the Kingdom of God that IS here and NOT QUITE here ( in progress), we ARE redeemed BUT the redemption is also in progress.
We will still screw up and make mistakes and rebel and go against Him of course. That is human nature.
The HS will speak to us and guide us and strengthen us, as long as we allow Him to do such.
We obey His will because we love Him and we love Him because He loved us before everything.
I don't think we HAVE to work hard to know God, only to open our hearts to Him and that is why, sometimes, children are so much closer to God and adults.
They don't "over think it" they just love Him.
Sometimes we forget that it is, truly, that simple.

Very true - I tend to agree with what was said in the LS thread about needing to cooperate with the Spirit (and some saved people don't, so they don't grow) but how do we let God work through us without actually doing anything ourselves?

It's a progression. it's development and it is ALL to do with the HS.
See, God works through us when we give ourselves over to Him.
If we "DO" anything it is the act of submission to Him.

After that, what we "do" is what the HS compels us to do AND what we CHOOSE to do so, I guess, the other thing we must "do" is CHOOSE.

Remember free will is sovereign and the HS doesn't over rule it or dominate it, He simply "whispers" His love to us.

Yes, I definitely think the Spirit helps us do what's right - working through our consciences maybe. Some Christians talk about being prompted specifically by the Spirit to do things but I don't know if that's ever happened to me or if I'm just trying to do what I know to be right or what seems right.

Someone who basically prefers the idea of doing their own thing rather than God's, and so is rebellious to him, even if saved would probably not be changed by the Spirit.

[RickD]

B. W. wrote:
Then comes the reverse guilt, shame, and accusatory phase from fellow Christians. If you mention to obey God because you do so out of love because of the revelation that he saved you when you deserved it not, then, one often finds themselves being accused of depending on works, and it is simply forcibly implied that you must cease in doing good because you are depending on works when this is not the case at all.

No amount of explanation can persuade such accusers of the love of God in your heart. One is often labeled a heretic and are demanded that they must cease their works of love, or else for some unexplained reason, God will love you less and even reject you because like to something nice for him. While the believer who is lazy all during life and remains a practicing vile sinner is accepted to heaven and you rejected because you like to obey God and do things to please him as the bible clearly teaches. Makes no sense...

Nicki wrote:
Thanks for your post. I don't think I've ever come across that sort of accusation from other Christians before though; there's much more (from sermons and books mostly) about living for God, not taking him for granted but trying to do what he wants us to do, putting others before ourselves, not just talking the talk but walking the walk, and so on and so forth. It all gave me the sense that although we don't need to be perfect we do have to be trying to obey God and not rebelling against him, or else - who knows? I just knew I wanted to stay on God's good side, but sometimes I felt I was living too much for myself. It's only on this forum I've found people who are so adamant that it doesn't matter what we do, we're still saved, and that we must never overestimate the importance of works.

Nicki,

I'm not sure what B. W. is referring to. I've never experienced any believers ever, trying to shame other believers for doing good works.

[IceMobster]

Nicki,

I'm not sure what B. W. is referring to. I've never experienced any believers ever, trying to shame other believers for doing good works.

Liar. Why don't you tell them about the time you complained how there is not enough cheese in the sammich your wife made for you?

[RickD]

Nicki,

I'm not sure what B. W. is referring to. I've never experienced any believers ever, trying to shame other believers for doing good works.

Liar. Why don't you tell them about the time you complained how there is not enough cheese in the sammich your wife made for you?

I can't remember the last time my wife made a sammich for me. Maybe that's why I'm so sad.

[IceMobster]

Nicki,

I'm not sure what B. W. is referring to. I've never experienced any believers ever, trying to shame other believers for doing good works.

Liar. Why don't you tell them about the time you complained how there is not enough cheese in the sammich your wife made for you?

I can't remember the last time my wife made a sammich for me. Maybe that's why I'm so sad.

I suggest suicide by jumping off a bridge. Make sure to live stream it!

[Jac3510]

Nicki,

I'm not sure what B. W. is referring to. I've never experienced any believers ever, trying to shame other believers for doing good works.

Liar. Why don't you tell them about the time you complained how there is not enough cheese in the sammich your wife made for you?

I can't remember the last time my wife made a sammich for me. Maybe that's why I'm so sad.

I suggest suicide by jumping off a bridge. Make sure to live stream it!

But if he were successful, would "live stream" really be an appropriate term?

To the OP, I have no idea what BW is talking about. As far as the question, "how do you obey God and do good works without actually doing anything," I'd suggest that's a bit of a false dichotemy. The issue is not doing things. The issue is the end. To what end are you doing them (which is actually different from the question of what is motivating you for doing something)? If the end is to personal salvation or to please God or whatever, you're just in the way. I've often put it in this little ditty: "Do your best and leave God the rest."

My point is just that you stop focusing on works at all. If I spend my time thinking about how to be righteous and worrying about not sinning, I may very well succeed in something that looks a lot like righteousness. I may not "sin" in the sense most people think of. But chances are that I'll look a lot like a Pharisee . . . outwardly clean but inwardly full of death and corruption. So the thing to do is not to focus on the outer life but the inner life. And the way to do that is not, contrary to popular teaching, by focusing on your thoughts or being positive or even having the right doctrine. All of those things are important in the same sense that good works are important (which is to say, not very). The thing to focus on is God. Get to know Him. Experience Him. "Feel" Him. Learn to see Him in everything. "In Him we live and move and have our being." Learn to trust Him in each and every thing. But don't berely focus on Him in the abstract. Focus on the concrete love He demonstrated in Christ.

God--the Creator of Heaven and Earth--loves you!!

He gave Himself for you. As Max Lucado put it, you are so valuable to Him that He bankrupted Heaven on your behalf. See His love in all things, first and foremost in the cross. See His forgiveness. See His mercy. See His grace. Abide in those things, trust in them daily, even when you are tempted to sin--especially when you are tempted to sin. See sins for what they are . . . the fear that God isn't really as good as He says He is and so the consequent desire to meet some need yourself. Entrust yourself each and every moment of each and every day to Him.

The result of that will be the (super)natural bearing of the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. But those things are not ideas you have in abstract. They are actions. You can't love without being loving. You can't have joy without being joyful, and so on. But a person who is joyful rejoices. A kind person uses kind words. And that is all the difference to your first question. You are not being kind so that you please God. Rather, because of your deep knowledge of God, becuase you know you please Him, you become kind.

I hope that helps just a bit. I hope it's a bit of fertilizer to sow in your field of faith.

[IceMobster]

Nicki,

I'm not sure what B. W. is referring to. I've never experienced any believers ever, trying to shame other believers for doing good works.

Liar. Why don't you tell them about the time you complained how there is not enough cheese in the sammich your wife made for you?

I can't remember the last time my wife made a sammich for me. Maybe that's why I'm so sad.

I suggest suicide by jumping off a bridge. Make sure to live stream it!

But if he were successful, would "live stream" really be an appropriate term?

It would be live whole the time (if I am watching it live) unless the camera breaks upon impact.